Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]

[RiouHotaru]

Smaller range than prism(1/2), based on your position(unlike prism), no special effects when it ends(unlike prism), 3 target max(instead of 20 like prism), ...

 

You cannot get energy siphon while using WoF(or prism) and you cannot get team energy restored while using WoF(or prism).

 

This change dramatically increased the cost of WoF through direct(costs more energy per second) and indirect(no longer able to regenerate/restore) energy costs, and in exchange, gave it a shut-off switch, that has no effect whatsoever besides stopping it. Unless you stop it before the 10 second mark, you aren't saving any energy, and considering the number of targets and range it has, if you're using it for scenarios where you need it for fewer than 10 seconds, you really aren't picking the right skill, given that you've got 3 other attacks available. Worse, given the start up cost, it's more expensive to cast it a second time if you'd have needed it before the duration ran out.

 

This is a really pointless nerf. If it's going to be costing on a level like prism, it needs to be functioning on a level like prism as well.

 

I'll keep saying it until you get it, the "cannot pick up energy" thing while WOF is running is a bug.  Rebecca has said as such.

 

I'll also ask where people are getting this "Only three targets at a time" because nowhere it is listed anywhere that WOF has a target cap of any kind.  If it's only targetting 3 enemies at a time, then that's ALSO a bug that needs addressing.

 

Cast cost is the actually LESS than Prism.  WOF is 50 energy + 5/sec.  Prism is, unmodded, 50 energy + 10/sec.

 

So overall, WOF costs LESS to use even with duration mods than a Prism modded in the same fashion.

 

As far as cast-time, Prism is at least 2 seconds of cast-time, base.  Can't say anything about World on Fire because I'm not sure how much the animation got sped up by, but I'm fairly certain it's base time is shorter than Prism's now.

 

So overall, minus the fact Prism covers more range and has a CC component, WOF is still (even damage-wise) a better move.

[Adaptor-Face]

Make WoF a spell charge stack.

Limit the amount of explosions (charges) with duration determining the interval between explosions. Power strength will determine explosion damage and total count of explosions. WoF will only trigger explosion when there's an enemy in range. Explosion will continue as long as there is a live enemy in range. WoF expires when charges are exhausted.

This will be like leshrac's ability without the duration.

I really like this idea

50 initial cost then a cost per explotion?

[(PSN)SilverKarasu]

Well i just used ember prime in a t4 survival up to 40 minutes lead the squad in damage and only died once here are my thoughts. 1. The fireblast mechanic should be given a higher chance for knockdown or be guaranteed knockdown then its perfect. 2. WOF energy drain should be reduced, it should hit everything on screen, or the duration needs to be increased. The skill can be fixed several ways but the point is it needs to be fixed. The squad had a nekros and a trinity ( trin wasnt as generous with energy as they could've been) and i still used 2 or 3 large energy pads, the energy consumption of WOF is too much in the long run. After fireblast and WOF are further adressed Ember should be fine. I kept WOF up constantly used acclerant to buff damage as enemies began to scale used fireball to take out heavies from across the room and fireblast for that quick stun (as well as accelerant) when the squad was getting overwhelmed. I have pictures of my build and the mission results but i'm not sure how to upload I dont post on the forums much >.<

 

I agree with this.

 

If Fireblast gets a guaranteed knockdown then that's perfect. 

 

And WoF needs fixing still.

[Vanetas]

i feel WoF as it now is too inconsistent when there are huge amount of enemies in your AoE. some enemies get hit some can even not get hit by wof for the duration as it keeps targeting randomly.

maybe changing WoF to a big aoe like hydroids undertow except its a pillar of fire and you can run around just like that so enemies are guaranteed to get hit.

[-InV-igo95862]

christ, can you actually go test it out before assuming that the changes were anywhere significant.

 

the armor buff lets you take 75% of your original damage.

 

it sounds good on paper until you actually see, while playing, that what used to kill you in 3 shots now take 4.

 

fireblast gets even crankier because if you want to take advantage of the knockback, you need LOS, and need to be right at enemy's gunpoint, which ember still cannot afford to do now. 

 

You have Accelerant to stun enemies. Cast it, jump inside the crowd of enemies and use Fire Blast.

 

I played a lot of games on Ceres today and absolutely destroyed everything.

[TisEric]

So to sum up this thread:

 

*Stats increased \\ all around good change no one is complaining.

 

*Fireball not changed \\  most would agree it needs more AOE based effects.

 

*Fire blast got wall of fire \\ Unreliable and slow with no guaranteed knockdowns or procs.

 Most players reaction to this is "meh" so its basically the same.

 

*Accelerant not changed \\ So this is still used just as a band-aid power to make her other powers useful past level 15 enemies.

 Fixed chain stun ... works as intended i suppose? still over priced cost of skill.

 

*World on Fire Is now toggle-able \\ Cost is higher than before , duration increases the cost , negligible damage without spamming accelerant , has  3 targets limit still , currently bugged to not use energy orbs.

 

 

 

Sigh... You know Ember was the first ever warframe i crafted? i was so excited, "Ember is a nightmare to light armored targets , she can super heat the air...etc" but when i got her i had no potato...so i could only used fireball and fireblast (olden days before mod change).

She was ok nothing like her description implied but she was ok.

 

Then the mod change came and i got to use all of her abilities, i was giddy , excited , burning my way through the solar system.

However a realization was on the edge of my thoughts.... Why are her abilities so counterproductive?.

Fireball seemed to do nothing , fireblast made a ring of fire so tiny and specific no one would enter and those that did would be not getting hit.

Overheat was ok but not long or interesting and wold of fire ... it was cool and all but barely had enough power range to use it effectively.

 

Then the late game arrived and my Ember was put to the knife , overheat was so good that it was removed.

At the time that people realized how 95% reduction worked it was gone. Suddenly everyone noticed how terrible her other 3 skills really were.

Ember the goddess of Face-tanking was no more but the ashes of who she once was.

 

Scott said she was meant to be a caster , yet she was the slowest one , had no survivability to speak of , all of her abilities were affected by 4 different stats and her power cost was off the scale. Scott put in accelerant , he said it was good for her role.

Accelerant costs 50 energy to stagger everyone in a short range and buffs fire damage.

Ok i thought maybe this will somehow make it all work.

 

I tried several build and my conclusion was one and the same...Accelerant costs too much for what it does.

You are required to spam this ability constantly to make Ember work which leads to no energy reserves after most easy fights.

Even with 450 energy it costs to much to use her abilities in quick successions.

She cannot be used properly when her abilities are all affected by many stat changes and mostly require the use of accelerant.

 

 

 

Now we come to this change.

Ember has been put to the knife so many times and each time the result has been the same.

Its time to admit defeat and just rework her whole kit. please Scott.

 

I always imagined ember as a high mobility frame that excels at maneuvering/getting around the battlefield ,  immolating the weak enemy types so your team can focus the big tough guys.

 

 

Anyway...those are my 2 credits.

ty for anyone that bothered to read though it all.

Edited January 22, 2015 by TisEric

[Vaskadar]

World on Fire should cause enemies caught directly in the blasts to panic, and more likely to receive a fire proc. Panicked enemies = CC'd enemies.

 

WoF also needs to have its energy scheme revised. There were no positive changes to it other than casting speed, which is hugely disappointing. The armor buff is nice, and makes her less squishy, but... her ultimate needs some real work, not just a change like this.

[Kruglov]

What a surprise.

 

DE comes up with good concepts.

 

Executes them.

 

Don't test.

 

And the whole thing is a failure.

 

Every update. Every feature. Every change. Every single time.

 

Why? Why is it always like this? Why must this happen every single time for even MINOR changes?

Years.

 

Years have passed since Ember Prime was added. Years of being the worst frame.

 

And now this.

 

Why?

What is there to gain from doing this?

What does DE earn from ruining old frames?

Is it to inspire people to buy the new ones?

You can still buy the old ones, too.

I don't get it, I really dont.

 

Edited January 22, 2015 by Kruglov

[SasAlexander]

So, since this update arrived during the night, and I'm at work, I can't test it now, but I will give my thoughts (and after my own test, I hope).

 

- The passive buffs are appreciated.

- Fire blast buff sounds interesting, I want to test it.

- And World on fire... At first, when it was announced in the workshop, I was happy about it, I thought it's a cool thing. I didn't do the math. And i thought someone will do these anyway, and it will be tweaked before it hits live. It seems I was wrong. I read a few of the posts here, and I feel bad, that my favourite frame (even after the Overheat nerf) is practically nerfed. Again. I must say, this is bad. Or at least it's not as good as it should be.

 

So, I have a few ideas, based on the current build:

- Fire blast: As others mentioned, it's only a knock back, it won't stop shooting the bad guys. It should do a knock down instead, or a stun, like in Accelerant.

- World on fire: Scrap the duration limit, let us burn through our energy (lol) as we see fit. And the hit cap... Let it hit more enemies. Not necessarily every enemy, just more. And mybe let it scale with power strenght. Like Vauban's Bastille.

- Scrap Accelerant. Bring back Overheat. Well, not the first one, that would be really OP, I know, but the second one, with less damage reduction. Or simply let it give more armor, given the current armor buff, if you think even that's too good.

 

How this would affect the Ember builds?

I think the build Stratos used a few posts earlier would still be viable like this for example, and would have more survivability (though it would need overheat spamming, and only Fire blast has CC). Or you could be a little tanky, with power strenght and duration, in wich case wou won't use WoF that much, bust can still CC a little, and harder to kill. And pick up Rage for this.

[Phoenix86]

Ember got a nice buffs on the frame itself

 

Her Ulti got nerfed, her 3 is useless as always

 

Here is my opinion: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/388630-ember-got-a-buff-world-on-fire-got-a-nerf

 

*Mods feel free to merge my thread here i guess, althought i'd like my OP post to be in the 1st page of this thread*

[-ER-CrazyMan]

What a surprise.

 

DE comes up with good concepts.

 

Executes them.

 

Don't test.

 

And the whole thing is a failure.

 

Every update. Every feature. Every change. Every single time.

 

Why? Why is it always like this? Why must this happen every single time for even MINOR changes?

Years.

 

Years have passed since Ember Prime was added. Years of being the worst frame.

 

And now this.

 

Why?

What is there to gain from doing this?

What does DE earn from ruining old frames?

Is it to inspire people to buy the new ones?

You can still buy the old ones, too.

I don't get it, I really dont.

 

They feed on player tears, that's why.

[.Czern]

Hmmm, okay. You made like 50% of what she needed, but it's always something.

Armor buff is not noticeable without Vitality, but it's nice anyway.

Sprint speed? I don't know, it feels like 1.05 to me. Sigh. At least something. I may be wrong though. 1.1 or 1.15 would be perfect.

Fire Blast? It's blocked even by kerbstone-high obstacles (or steel stairs awww [ya know, the ones with gaps between steps]), but besides broken LoS it works good. I think it still needs some buffing, either damage (up base to 500 or 750 with dmg drop off) or altering AI so it doesn't walk through fire.

WoF. Gimmicks. Either increase base duration or remove it completely.

Looks like Fireball got new visuals, I love them.

 

WoF still has target limit which hurts its effectiveness a lot. Fireblast still doesn't stop enemies from coming through. Accelerant's buff to abilities' damage ratio is still too high. She still drains energy like crazy.

I appreciate that you finally decided to do something, but let's be honest - there is much more to be done to make her a properly balanced warframe.

[Chimera_Prime]

OK, I tested it. Not that great. See I saw the armor and speed and thought, this is so I can run around with world on fire like a crazy person burning everything I touch.

Reality was, 10 seconds of boom then nothing.

Then, next time, I was like surrounded, and panicked, then hit 4, it went off, but 2 seconds later no boom. I had activated it while my energy was low. The high activation sucked away all my energy leaving me with enough for only one tick.

I know, my bad. Just I'm just so underwhelmed.

See the thing is previously I would not have been able to activate the power, true. But at least when I did I got my 10 seconds.

It didn't make me feel powerfully or awesome, like other frames do. So just sad about this really. Oh well. Such a beutifull frame. I really wanted this to be it, I thought by toggle it would be like Banshee, low and steady energy cost. Not like this, not like this...

Please, can it be made more fun?

[--Q--Guther]

You have Accelerant to stun enemies. Cast it, jump inside the crowd of enemies and use Fire Blast.

 

I played a lot of games on Ceres today and absolutely destroyed everything.

 

>i have used an ember build centering around 1,2 and some 3, which is largely independent of the skills being changed here, to great success, after the patch.

>therefore the skill changes arent a problem because my build's effectiveness isnt affected much by the changes.

>detractors who use the skills i dont use are the problem and their concerns are exaggerated or imaginary.

 

you see the problem here?

 

the more viable ember builds before the patch were builds revolving around accelerant and fireball.

 

now with a weaker WOF and a fireblast that still cannot crowd control on its own, ember players are incentivised toward YOUR existing 1,2 build, which certainly isnt the intended outcome DE wanted when they tried to buff ember.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Guther

[JoxerHD]

This is a massive fail for DE.

They should be ashamed for putting out such a bad update on a frame.

[Terrahero]

christ, can you actually go test it out before assuming that the changes were anywhere significant.

 

the armor buff lets you take 75% of your original damage.

 

it sounds good on paper until you actually see, while playing, that what used to kill you in 3 shots now take 4.

 

And how is that not significant? Damage taken went from 95% to 75%, (~70% on Prime.) That stuff saves lives.

 

Besides if you condense everything to the most inconvenient situations possible you can make everything look bad.

 

"Gee armor only went from 15 to 1500. That what could kill me in 1 shot now takes 2" Leaving everyone to play the pronoun game on what "what" is. Fact is that Embers effective health went from 105% to 133% (142% on prime) thanks to this "insignificant" armor buff.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Terrahero

[Terrahero]

double post

Edited January 22, 2015 by Terrahero

[Kruglov]

And how is that not significant? Damage taken went from 95% to 75%, (~70% on Prime.) That stuff saves lives.

 

It saves lives only if your frame was already capable of taking hits.

 

Ember wasn't.

 

VS enemies with puncture damage its 30% more health. Everything else is 18%. Which would be OK if she was even mediocre in terms of tankiness before the buff.

 

Ember doesn't have alot of health in the first place.

This 30% means nothing. She is still going to die easily to anything with high DOT's or high 1-shot damage like ballisticas or bombards or infested poppers.

 

Armor doesn't mean anything if the frame doesn't have the health to use it.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Kruglov

[--Q--Guther]

And how is that not significant? Damage taken went from 95% to 75%, (~70% on Prime.) That stuff saves lives.

 

Besides if you condense everything to the most inconvenient situations possible you can make everything look bad.

 

"Gee armor only went from 15 to 1500. That what could kill me in 1 shot now takes 2" Leaving everyone to play the pronoun game on what "what" is. Fact is that Embers effective health went from 105% to 133% (142% on prime) thanks to this "insignificant" armor buff.

 

could you go test it out first before contending with more numbers?

i did, and level 30 corpus enemies are still hitting extremely hard. why? ember doesnt have the hp pool to take advantage of the armor buff.

And ember CANNOT resort to be taking health damage for the armor mitigation to kick in. unlike oberon or trin or valk, health damage taken accumulates and cannot be restored within the warframe's skillset,

[RealPandemonium]

Excal is a farming tool.

Fixed that for ya!

[(PSN)SilverKarasu]

I'm going to just stop caring so much.

 

No more feedback threads. No more working out requests for Excalibur and other under par frames (unpar not in damage but in skills 1-4 usefulness).

 

Just going to sit back and play the one perfectly all skill viable frame I have and enjoy the game.

 

Zephyr is love. Zephyr is life.

[Llyssa]

Thoughts on this: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/389168-world-on-fire-balance-suggestion/

[Holynight6]

Okay guys. I've had quite a while to test things out, so here goes.

 

WoF is a waste of space. If it were a mod card, it wouldn't be installed. Hell, I'd use it for fusion fodder if i could. So lets move on.

 

Every other piece of your kit is awesome. Fireball for heavies as before. Accelerant hasn't changed, but is now re-apply able. Fire Blast is the CC you always knew you needed. Not only does Accelerant buff up your damage, it's perfect setup for a Zephyr style Fire Blast bombing. 2 second stun followed by up to 7 second fire panic.

 

I'll post the build I'm currently running:

http://goo.gl/nZi39E

 

No hiding behind the non-valkyr armor. Use the slight speed bump and your CC kit to keep alive. Stay mobile. And have fun. Definitely that last part...

[Ryjeon]

 

World on Fire.

(A no animation toggle that causes everyone to be set on fire for fire Dot Damage. Power Strength variable for how much. Everyone is stunned for as long as they burn during this time, during this time Ember herself is also set on fire. No stunned, but taking the same DoT damage.)

 

This would make it a Area Lockdown, that is mobile and cheap *with efficiency mods maxed) but at the cost of burning her life away to keep it going.

 

Hah. This is almost exactly what I said would be the only thing that could make her ult worse than it is now. But you know what I like it anyway. It at least would give her a unique identity. A high risk high reward burning berserker would suit me just fine. But wouldn't she need a way to natively regenerate lost hitpoints if she's going to damage herself?  Perhaps she could utilize some phoenix rebirth theming?

 

 

1. Accelerant should also "burn away" the armor of enemies reducing their armor by X%(~30%?).

3. While world on fire is active, all damage done by ember gains X(~500?) flat fire damage. Her melee weapon and projectile/gun gains a firey aura.

 

I do think Ember needs a native "Melt Armor" effect in order to circumvent the limitations of being Heat-damage specialized. But I don't think it makes much sense on Accelerant. That ability is already offering a lot of power as a reactive stun and significant damage boost. I think the Melt Armor effect would do better on Fire Blast.  Since Accelerant isn't thematically heating on it's own it's something more like an oil that makes the object more sensitive to heat. Perhaps Fire Blast's eximus ring can have an interaction where it consumes Accelerant to create explosive chain reactions and melts armor in the process. Just an idea, it might be fun or not. But I do think Ember needs a native armor debuff.

 

I think the weapon damage buffs you're suggesting for World on Fire would be suitable for adding fire damage to allies' weapons so they can benefit from the Accelerant buff.  Currently teams rarely experience the full potential of Accelerant's %damage increase because few people will change to a heat/corrosive projection loadout.  Giving them some bonus heat damage could let them have a taste.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ryjeon

[Coatduck]

I feel still the same. its just toggle ability and drain energy over time

 

with my 75& efficiency on, the WoF cost 13 energy on cast and 1 energy drain overtime.

 

My WoF duration is 9 seconds thats means 13 + 9 = 22 energy.

 

so it is still the SAME.

Try adding duration, then calculate it again and get back to me.