Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]

[GreyEnneract]

I'm going to just stop caring so much.

 

No more feedback threads. No more working out requests for Excalibur and other under par frames (unpar not in damage but in skills 1-4 usefulness).

 

Just going to sit back and play the one perfectly all skill viable frame I have and enjoy the game.

 

Zephyr is love. Zephyr is life.

Divebomb.

[Phoenix86]

Divebomb.

 

Dont you use it in the middle of normal jumps for an "on demand" massive AoE KD? :)

it's funny, even more with the augment if you like melee stuff

[V0LK]

Alright, stamina increase. Why, again?

 

I wish DE would answer on one of Devstream why are they still keeping it. Really, it serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE! You can mash melee while low on stamina, you can copter. Why would we need it? Did anybody in a Warframe history tactically check their stamina amount before jumping into battle?

[CapedBaldy]

I cast Fire Blast once in Terminus, a Lancer behind the box didn't get hit by the wave. Didn't feel like playing Warframe anymore for the rest of the day.

Edited January 22, 2015 by CapedBaldy

[BrazilianJoe]

As far as the last Rebeca's post, I understand that WoF is not a 'sustained toggle' ability. 

 

The buff is that you can toggle off the skill prematurely and save energy. 

 

Having a fixed duration, it shouldn't prevent the players from picking up energy, she said it's a bug. 

 

Considering that players will still be able to gain energy when using WoF, it would be all good, except that it still needs more damage or some utility.

 

I say that WoF needs:

 

1) To not disable energy gaining in any way, since it's still duration-capped; AND:

 

2) To do Blast or Heat procs on the explosions, 100% chance.

 

Then it would be JUST RIGHT.

Edited January 22, 2015 by BrazilianJoe

[TychusMechanicus]

I wanted to write up a mini novel based on how disappointed I am with Ember, then I deleted it. I started reading this topic again and I want to rant again so I took a couple of big breaths and tried to put my frustration into something more constructive.

 

I tried Ember again this morning (EU time zone) and I got really frustrated as I expected her to be actually stronger after the changes.

 

Ember is a direct damage Warframe and it absolutely limits her potential as such. Almost all other Warframes have at least an indirect way for CC while all ember has is an augment  of limited efficiency for a limited efficiency ring of fire and a short stagger damage buffer that in the reality of the game only works with her own abilities as nobody is using pure fire elemental damage.

 

Main problems with Ember, dissected into each of her abilities:

 

Fireball - fine as it is, Oberon and Nyx has the same issue with their first, you can ignore and move on. At least Volt's does CC thanks to the electric proc stun. Sure, fire can cause panic, but the blast itself covers little area while electric damage actually chains towards multiple enemies upon proc and radiation procced enemies draw aggro on themselves. But in the end we can live with this and admittedly this ability looks badass.

 

Accelerant - Here we have an amazing potential, but in the end it feels too little.

 

Problem: While you can argue that this gives an insane damage bonus keep in mind that only Ember has innate fire damage and even if you use fire on your weapons to match your Ember most players will go corrosive / radiation or viral depending on the enemy or the availability of a Corrosive Projection team. In it's current form this is an ability you must spam to make all your other abilities' damage appealing. And we all know that pure damage is not enough after a point.

Solution idea: This should have 30m base range and 30s base duration, this would make the ability better on the long run and lessen the need to spam it. To keep things more balanced reduce the buff % scaling with power strenght and the base fire damage increase % and instead  add speed debuff to the enemies. In the end you'll end up not being able to kill with your abilities and then it would be really good if you could at least mitigate enemy attention and damage with something.

 

Fire Blast - I have to say I really like that shockwave now. Should be almost perfect, just make the persistent fire ring into a solid fire area to give it some area denial potential. In my experience fire proc doesn't always cause the flailing panic animation and more often than not enemies simply take negligible fire DoT ticks  and continue attacking through it with any enemy later entering the ring may even completely bypass it. By all means it should not be a Frost Globe or a Bastille, however, it should still feel more powerful than an energy coloured vision obscuring ring that loses effectiveness rapidly.

 

World on Fire - this is one of the main can of worms now it seems. It's duration is still super short, it's only direct damage and without accelerant spam its damage is going to fall off really fast. If you want to go with toggle, then make it a fully toggled ability. I could live with less range and more rapid and visible explosions. It would make movement necessary even more with a more visible Ember in the middle. Feeling like a burning solar flare while running around while I can keep this on as long as I want with the only limit is my energy consumption. If this would also give enemies an accuracy debuff while aiming at you reasoning that it's hard to spot Ember within the bright flames it would make it work even better when the damage gets lower.

 

With a bit of comfort and CC added to her abilities the armor buff - that simply does not feel right anyway - can be absolutely thrown away.

 

I really hope Ember could be a more viable Warframe because I really like her. She was the first prime I ever farmed and built and sadly one of those frames that I simply do not enjoy playing despite the cool factor. To me she feels like an asthmatic cheetah... Very fast and runs out of breath within seconds.

[Angus_JTV]

I fit well with the changes to Ember. Mobility buff and armor is what I was waiting most to feel good with my playstyle. The only thing I will eventually ask for is a bit more range for Accelerant.

[Kira_Akabane]

I know a lot of people are complaining about fireblasts line of sight but did anyone stop to wonder why it wouldn't have it in the first place? Fire eximus flame waves don't hit you through walls or behind cover of any kind, so why would embers if she is replicating that same skill?

 

But on another note like everyone said WoF has been hit pretty hard by this, not liking it since i run duration and it takes me about 150-180 to cast. It's still good at lower levels in terms of just running through watching things blow up but i think it definitely needs a complete revamp. The toggle literally does nothing, the range is lackluster, the duration/frequency of some blasts is negligible, and of course without any power strength the damage is still laughable. Hell it wont kill ancients in survival past lvl 15-20. 

 

I really do like ember and enjoy playing her even if she isn't the biggest survival expert, but she gives you reason to move around and do more then just stand in one spot and facetank things with something like iron skin. (I may never understand how people enjoy that but everyone does have their own playstyle after all.)

[RealPandemonium]

Divebomb.

Divebomb is amazing with max range, keeps the whole room off its feet the way Pull can (better in radius, worse in range.)  

Edited January 22, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Celestias]

Since i haven't really seen proper feedback here i'll drop some from a few hours of play test experience.

 

The stat changes on EMber were lovely.. her movement and survivability no longer feel hampered and clunky like before. Her speed also reflects the caster aspect properly which means stat wise ember is where she needs to be from the way she felt during play testing.

 

Her 3rd ability Fireblasts new addition is clunky to say the least. The fire wave sent out may follow the same rules as the Eximus units version but it feels:

 

1 - too fast in comparison, The eximus wave is slower and albeit actually more daunting. The fire going out feels somewhat too fast and only works best in open terrain.

 

2 - Obstacles generally obscure desired targets for knockback and i have seen a couple of times where heavy units simply dont have any effect shown on them, as if the fire wave never existed to them. However obstacle wise it is a little ridiculous when those thin orokin lamp poles prevent an enemy from being knocked back...

 

World on fire feels more like a rework and i have no real issue with this. the Ability mechanicaly behaves the same with the exception that we can now decide how much energy we want to use on it and how long it should last for. Unlike in the past where we pressed 4 and ran on our merry way. The duration still feels too short though and range wise feels like it could use some more.

 

I'm not looking for bonus effects though. Just QoL improvements to round out Ember's ability kit. Perhaps making Accelerant similar to Banshee's Silence would do this?
 

just a thought.. :) but good work on her buffs so far DE

[--Q--Guther]

I know a lot of people are complaining about fireblasts line of sight but did anyone stop to wonder why it wouldn't have it in the first place? Fire eximus flame waves don't hit you through walls or behind cover of any kind, so why would embers if she is replicating that same skill?

 

But on another note like everyone said WoF has been hit pretty hard by this, not liking it since i run duration and it takes me about 150-180 to cast. It's still good at lower levels in terms of just running through watching things blow up but i think it definitely needs a complete revamp. The toggle literally does nothing, the range is lackluster, the duration/frequency of some blasts is negligible, and of course without any power strength the damage is still laughable. Hell it wont kill ancients in survival past lvl 15-20. 

 

I really do like ember and enjoy playing her even if she isn't the biggest survival expert, but she gives you reason to move around and do more then just stand in one spot and facetank things with something like iron skin. (I may never understand how people enjoy that but everyone does have their own playstyle after all.)

Pertaining to replicating arson fire wall, ember's doesnt knock down target but instead knocks back targets as if they had walked into a booben bounce pad.

Its a world of difference when enemies fall flat to the face versus being pushed backward while still shooting.

[Toddwjp]

i think the best buff/chnage/redesign to ember is to just make a new ability set

Edited January 22, 2015 by Toddwjp

[Phoenix86]

i think the best buff/chnage/redesign to ember is to just make a new ability set

 

given the months and months of waiting...

 

the situation is kinda desperate if so much time of pondering gave us such pityful results.........

[Azawarau]

World on Fire now prevents you from getting energy during its efficiency/time based duration. Rate of 'fire' buff is worthless. It's an ability that does literally more harm than good.

Buff duration and lose range, and be prevented from picking up energy until your reserves go out. If only WoF was half as good as Peacemaker to compensate.

Buff efficiency and enjoy spending half the mission recasting the ability.

 

Fire Blast's wall of fire is affected by line of sight, does poor damage, and does not proc fire fright. Buff is practically nonexistant.

 

Movement speed is nice, armor buff is worthless.

 

Overall, hope finally dies for a useful Ember.

The armor buff makes a noticeable difference but it really wasnt needed

[Kuboy]

I dont get it. The Ember is a typical Glass-canon character. I think, the +100 armor are ruined the balance. She is now a tank? What? Really? And, the WoF nerfing is just the cream on the cake. I think, the best for buffing the Ember, is the buffing her abilitys. The knockdown to the 3rd ability is very good, effective, and logical, if we see the eximuses. But that armor thing, and, the WoF thing... I dont know who think this is okay, but, i think this is NOT OKAY.

She's a skirmisher, not a glass cannon.

WoF got nerfed. Not OP

[LascarCapable]

I am actually leveling up Ember again. So far the changes are nice, but IMO it's not enough. Ember is still extremely oriented towards fire damage, and a lot of Warframes are much more attractive when it's about wreacking the crap out of things (Volt and the insane bonuses given by Electric Shield, Nova and Mprime...). I mainly see Ember as a damage/CC oriented warframe, and as almost the only frame with a good enough firepower on her abilities. I think the best thing to do is give the possibility to make Ember's powers matching the guns killing potential with the right build.

 

Ember has more or less the same problem than Volt : she needs a specific kind of weapon to be truely efficient. While Volt needs critical focused weapons to extract the more punch possible from his weaponry, Ember needs fire damage focused weapons. The probem is, Volt has already a good amount of critical focused weaponry, and they're already extremely good weapons for most of them : Amprex, Dread, Soma (Prime)... While Ember needs fire damage focused weaponry, and so far we have only two weapons that are only focused on fire damage (and they're not very good). An indirect buff to Ember would be to buff Ignis, and also creating more weapons focused on fire damage. So far, Ember's effective choice of weapon is extremely limited, and IMO this need to change ASAP.

 

Another interesting thing to add : all players inside the fireblast area gets a damage bonus considered as fire damage. If you're inside the burning circle left by fire blast, you get +X% fire damage to everything (including abilities) as long as you stay on that area. This would make Accelerant more interesting when your allies did not packed any weapon with fire damage on it, as well as not making Accelerant totally useless if you forgot your Ignis and your fire damage mods.

 

I'd suggest to get rid of the timer on World on Fire. I really don't think that this is needed.

[DietEbolaCola]

It seems like the WoF duration mechanic is modeled after the mechanics for Mirage Prism, which has another effect (blind) when the duration ends to justify its usage, unlike WoF.

 

Either an end-of-duration effect needs to be added to it, to mirror the blind mechanic on Prism, or power duration needs to be removed like the toggle mechanic for Nyx Absorb or Banshee Soundquake.

 

I suggest adding a stagger + AOE heat proc as end-of-duration effect, with the heat proc affected by ability power strength, range, and duration like the Blind effect on Mirage Prism does. Such an end-of-duration effect would complement Accelerant well.

Edited January 22, 2015 by DietEbolaCola

[Hybridon]

After her recent changes, Ember still lacks a few things, using too much energyto get on level with other frames, damage-wise, CC-wise, etc.

 

Here are the proposed final changes:

 

a) Fireblast needs either a damage boost and/or a cost reduction. It has low damage, and is highly unreliable at the moment. The ring that stays on the floor... still terrible. If you want, make it a fire aura that follows Ember dealing damage to whoever enters it.

 

b) Fireblast expanding ring should knockDOWN and not knockBACK enemies.

 

c) LOS issues have to be resolved. I have to see my targets in order for the expanding ring to hit them. While it shouldn't go through walls, atm if I cast Fireblast around a poll, any enemy behind the poll that I don't see upon casting don't get hit by the expanding aura. This is terrible.

 

d) Fireblast augment... doesn't work at all. Enemies won't panick.

 

e) World on Fire now costs more than it used to. If you build for a long duration, it costs a lot of energy. Make it a toggle, get rid of duration on the thing.

 

f) If you are keeping duration, add a final effect that makes it worth ending the ability before the duration, like Prism, so that the energy cost is understandable. Still, best is to make it a real toggle.

 

g) If you are keeping a target limit, add some form of CC, if not, get rid of the target limit. The ability has terrible range, low damage, no reliable CC... nothing. You need Accelerant to make it usable, and that means lots of energy used.

 

h) Still no passives? You could have used this pass on her to add a Passive or 2.

 

i) Ember Prime has a 25 armor buff, really? All other frames have more polarity slots, and the ones that have buffs have much better ones. Make it 50 so it goes on par with Nyx Prime, or give her, you know, something else like Nova prime has.

 

These are my considerations after these changes.

[MrNonApplicable]

Okay guys OP here.
Me and DeRebecca did a few hours testing embers viability and scaling in mars, T4surv and Ceres Draco last night.

 

Here's my conclusion:

 

Ember in her current state is a 100% viable frame, she can deal large damage, and with enough team member to keep you alive and res you when you end up downed, you can still crush and push back most enemies that you take on. However, you will need to chew through health restores.

 

Okay, that said the way this worked was basically by spamming her 2nd and 3rd, ..a stun and and damage buff, followed by stun, cc and damage (buffed).

 

I did some testing with and without accelerant and found the damage dealing abilities of ember to deal trivial damage without accelerant. This basically made accelerant necesary for any damage casting.

While this meant it worked, this makes accelerant seem like a bandaid ability really, a ability to buff embers damage to viable levels, rather than just buffing embers damage to viable levels in the first place.

 

I did notice that basically any time you stopped running around, you were almost immediately pummeled and that trying to revive a team mate usually led to a domino effect of deaths. Once again, too much glass, not enough cannon, because there was nothing in embers kit strong enough to keep enemies at bay while I put my fragile self in harms way.

 

Everyone's said enough on WoF now, I don't need to cover that much. It was okay for short charges (as long as you applied your damage buff first). but it didn't feel like an ulti.

 

 

Okay, here's my idea to remedy ember's problems;

 

Scrap accelerant and just buff embers damage capabilities, ..don't make us use an ability just to facilitate them being useful.

Give her damage the ash treatment, mix in some finisher damage to ignore armor and shields. Then you won't have to worry about her being too OP at lower levels and useless at higher, because a fair splash of normal and ignoring damage makes for no need of crazy damage at low levels just to keep up later on.

 

Replace accelerant with an ability similar to old overheat, that reduces incoming damage from projectiles at a hard cap of 30% maybe, increases outgoing damage (of ability and wep damage not excessively) and increases chance of knockdown resist (to keep you running) With the latter two improved by power strength.

 

Remove the duration timer on WoF and the target cap. Honestly, this is just so bad, I spent nearly all of my duration running around a guy not targeted by my WoF on Ceres Draco as it's 3 target limit was being used up by other enemies, while this one guy was trying to kill me.

Ember is not strong, and she has to get close to enemies to deal damage, but the risk, vs reward is way off, I could have been killed, never having hit that one enemy feet away from me taking pot shots before the duration ended, if I hadn't just shot him.

If ember needs to get so close, and put herself at such risk, the reward must be worth it.

[Qynchou]

Previously you needed duration, now you need duration AND efficiency. Hows that a good thing?

[EmptyDevil]

Consensus among the majority of players would be to remove the timer from World On Fire, correct? I honestly believe that removing WoF's timer next should be highest priority.

Edited January 22, 2015 by EmptyDevil

[ThePresident777]

How can it be a toggle and not have duration?  How is that different from just plain regular casting?

 

This is how WoF consumes energy:  50 energy + 10 * (1 + duration_bonus) seconds * 5 energy / second.  That means that as long as it consumes energy per second, instead of energy per cast, we are paying extra energy for duration mods, which is a nerf.

 

And what is a toggle on WoF good for anyway?

[ntrHeZ]

How can it be a toggle and not have duration?  How is that different from just plain regular casting?

 

This is how WoF consumes energy:  50 energy + 10 * (1 + duration_bonus) seconds * 5 energy / second.  That means that as long as it consumes energy per second, instead of energy per cast, we are paying extra energy for duration mods, which is a nerf.

 

And what is a toggle on WoF good for anyway?

 

With full toggle Ember can ignore duration and put more focus in damage\energy\range\hp.

Ember's problem that she need all of this and only have 8 mod slots.

[Azawarau]

I am actually leveling up Ember again. So far the changes are nice, but IMO it's not enough. Ember is still extremely oriented towards fire damage, and a lot of Warframes are much more attractive when it's about wreacking the crap out of things (Volt and the insane bonuses given by Electric Shield, Nova and Mprime...). I mainly see Ember as a damage/CC oriented warframe, and as almost the only frame with a good enough firepower on her abilities. I think the best thing to do is give the possibility to make Ember's powers matching the guns killing potential with the right build.

 

Ember has more or less the same problem than Volt : she needs a specific kind of weapon to be truely efficient. While Volt needs critical focused weapons to extract the more punch possible from his weaponry, Ember needs fire damage focused weapons. The probem is, Volt has already a good amount of critical focused weaponry, and they're already extremely good weapons for most of them : Amprex, Dread, Soma (Prime)... While Ember needs fire damage focused weaponry, and so far we have only two weapons that are only focused on fire damage (and they're not very good). An indirect buff to Ember would be to buff Ignis, and also creating more weapons focused on fire damage. So far, Ember's effective choice of weapon is extremely limited, and IMO this need to change ASAP.

 

Another interesting thing to add : all players inside the fireblast area gets a damage bonus considered as fire damage. If you're inside the burning circle left by fire blast, you get +X% fire damage to everything (including abilities) as long as you stay on that area. This would make Accelerant more interesting when your allies did not packed any weapon with fire damage on it, as well as not making Accelerant totally useless if you forgot your Ignis and your fire damage mods.

 

I'd suggest to get rid of the timer on World on Fire. I really don't think that this is needed.

Its not difficult to build a weapon with a higher % of fire damage and still have utility

 

You cant use blast,radiation, or Gas but you can still mix with corrosive,viral, and magnetic so youll have the 3 factions covered

 

The trick is to use a weapon with one thing thats effective against the faction along with Fire that has around 30-40% of your weapons damage

 

For example Scindo primes high slash damage with fire element for Infested

 

Or Corrosive fire on the Serro for Grineer

 

Bonus fire damage for Fire blast would be nice for teamplay since itd allow people to synergize with fire but only if it cant combine with other elements

 

Thatd start throwing peoples weapons off

[Phoenix86]

Btw adding a bonus Heat dmg to Fireblast would mean insta trashing Fireball Frenzy augment