Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]

[MrNonApplicable]

While I'll have to wait for PS4 to get these changes to comment on the buffs, I have to voice disagreement with the idea of taking away accelerant, even if it would mean a buff to her other abilities. Accelerant is her best stay alive move since it can stun all enemies in range and give you a chance to get shields back up. Please don't take that away unless the buffs to her other abilities include a stun-everything-around-you sort of perk that is at least on par with how well accelerant works for this. 

...like the radial blast that fire blast now has?

[geninrising]

This is my conclusion from the megathread quoted word, for word :)

 

 

"Okay guys OP here.

Me and DeRebecca did a few hours testing embers viability and scaling in mars, T4surv and Ceres Draco last night.

 

Here's my conclusion:

 

Ember in her current state is a 100% viable frame, she can deal large damage, and with enough team member to keep you alive and res you when you end up downed, you can still crush and push back most enemies that you take on. However, you will need to chew through health restores.

 

Okay, that said the way this worked was basically by spamming her 2nd and 3rd, ..a stun and and damage buff, followed by stun, cc and damage (buffed).

 

I did some testing with and without accelerant and found the damage dealing abilities of ember to deal trivial damage without accelerant. This basically made accelerant necesary for any damage casting.

While this meant it worked, this makes accelerant seem like a bandaid ability really, a ability to buff embers damage to viable levels, rather than just buffing embers damage to viable levels in the first place.

 

I did notice that basically any time you stopped running around, you were almost immediately pummeled and that trying to revive a team mate usually led to a domino effect of deaths. Once again, too much glass, not enough cannon, because there was nothing in embers kit strong enough to keep enemies at bay while I put my fragile self in harms way.

 

Everyone's said enough on WoF now, I don't need to cover that much. It was okay for short charges (as long as you applied your damage buff first). but it didn't feel like an ulti.

 

 

Okay, here's my idea to remedy ember's problems;

 

Scrap accelerant and just buff embers damage capabilities, ..don't make us use an ability just to facilitate them being useful.

Give her damage the ash treatment, mix in some finisher damage to ignore armor and shields. Then you won't have to worry about her being too OP at lower levels and useless at higher, because a fair splash of normal and ignoring damage makes for no need of crazy damage at low levels just to keep up later on.

 

Replace accelerant with an ability similar to old overheat, that reduces incoming damage from projectiles at a hard cap of 30% maybe, increases outgoing damage (of ability and wep damage not excessively) and increases chance of knockdown resist (to keep you running) With the latter two improved by power strength.

 

Remove the duration timer on WoF and the target cap. Honestly, this is just so bad, I spent nearly all of my duration running around a guy not targeted by my WoF on Ceres Draco as it's 3 target limit was being used up by other enemies, while this one guy was trying to kill me.

Ember is not strong, and she has to get close to enemies to deal damage, but the risk, vs reward is way off, I could have been killed, never having hit that one enemy feet away from me taking pot shots before the duration ended, if I hadn't just shot him.

 

If ember needs to get so close, and put herself at such risk, the reward must be worth it."

All of this! +1

[MrNonApplicable]

All of this! +1

Thank you :3

[Phoenix86]

-snip-

 

ok u told us ur idea, 

what was rebecca's one? (if any)

 

i'm curious

 

btw i dont get why u want to hard cap old Overheat to something like 30% or 50% when we have squishy DPS frames that run around with 90-95% DR

Edited January 22, 2015 by Phoenix86

[Keltik0ne]

Well, no reason to actually play Ember yet, better frames by far out there.

[MrNonApplicable]

ok u told us ur idea, 

what was rebecca's one? (if any)

 

i'm curious

 

btw i dont get why u want to hard cap old Overheat to something like 30% or 50% when we have squishy DPS frames that run around with 90-95% DR

I can't say a lot for her opinion, but how I interpreted what I think I remember her saying goes as follows;

 

We both agreed fire blast was a welcome change and that accelerant and fire blast are at the moment her key to doing well. She also seemed to think that spamming them was the solution to high level content.

We both agreed that while she was currently fun, she was not as useful in the high level situations as other frames.

 

I can't say any more than that, the rest would be pure speculation.

 

 

Yeah, I think the DR% cap should be low enough to just keep her trucking yunno? That's why it's combined with a knockdown resist. Because ember is best when mobile.

As for the other frames, my personal feeling is that as squishy frames their DR value is too high. I'm a bit of a balance nut, so I'm not gonna make suggestions that I feel add to the problem.

[Xtenz]

i Strongly disagree with this , theses are not her main problem . 

 

You only need to make  ember less dependant on all stats ( STR/RANGE/EFF/DUR)  remove the duration scaling would allow flexibility in her build , same happen with any stats you choose  .. 

 

Ember kit ISNT bad . What is bad is how she scales on EVERYTHING because she lacks everything ( except damage)

 

What they did on WoF is utter S#&$ and they need to fix it asap .

 

Here is my thought on what happened with this patch and how to fix her (long post)  : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/388985-ember-changes-post-15110-megathread/page-7#entry4291866

[xylonez]

Note 2: The combo of Duration + Toggle Energy Drain is currently the hottest issue. Ember not being able to pick-up Energy in this state is currently being treated like a bug.

Not being able to pick-up energy is misleading. You CAN pick up energy orbs, you just didn't get the energy. It's exactly the same for any skill that has energy drain (i.e Prism, Peacemaker, etc).

[Nosferagon]

Xtenz, on 22 Jan 2015 - 4:13 PM, said:

Ember kit ISNT bad . What is bad is how she scales on EVERYTHING because she lacks everything ( except damage)

 

 

What do you mean she doesn't lack damage? she only has damage because of a skill. you need to spend energy to have damage. does that not strike you as odd? It's one thing to have synergy between skills, it is another altogether to be completely dependent on it.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Lone.Hunter.99

[geninrising]

 

Xtenz, on 22 Jan 2015 - 4:13 PM, said:

Ember kit ISNT bad . What is bad is how she scales on EVERYTHING because she lacks everything ( except damage)

 

 

What do you mean she doesn't lack damage? she only has damage because of a skill. you need to spend energy to have damage. does that not strike you as odd? It's one thing to have synergy between skills, it is another altogether to be completely dependent on it.

 

+1

[Angus_JTV]

 

Xtenz, on 22 Jan 2015 - 4:13 PM, said:

Ember kit ISNT bad . What is bad is how she scales on EVERYTHING because she lacks everything ( except damage)

 

 

What do you mean she doesn't lack damage? she only has damage because of a skill. you need to spend energy to have damage. does that not strike you as odd? It's one thing to have synergy between skills, it is another altogether to be completely dependent on it.

 

+1

[Xtenz]

 

Xtenz, on 22 Jan 2015 - 4:13 PM, said:

Ember kit ISNT bad . What is bad is how she scales on EVERYTHING because she lacks everything ( except damage)

 

 

What do you mean she doesn't lack damage? she only has damage because of a skill. you need to spend energy to have damage. does that not strike you as odd? It's one thing to have synergy between skills, it is another altogether to be completely dependent on it.

 

 

Yes . And i'm fine with that gameplay-wise , yes you have to spend mana but the results are there , when you do your damage scales very high . (She is the ONLY warframe that has a double scaling damage-wise  ; to explain there is the normal power strength scaling , and the accelerant debuff scaling)

 

To be clear , with max power strength  each fire pillar hit for  2k-3k WITHOUT accelerant , with accelerant you do 9-15k  damage with each fire pillar AND you stun everyone . THIS.ISNT.BAD.

 

If you feel it is , you might be doing something wrong.

 

Look at my link from my detailled post   i posted right above . Because like you i'm not happy by the changes (especially because of the new energy cost of WoF ) and also because imo none of the real problems were addressed

Edited January 22, 2015 by Xtenz

[MrNonApplicable]

Yes . And i'm fine with that gameplay-wise , yes you have to spend mana but the results are there , when you do your damage scales very high . (She is the ONLY warframe that has a double scaling damage-wise  ; to explain there is the normal power strength scaling , and the accelerant debuff scaling)

 

To be clear , with max power strength  each fire pillar hit for  2k-3k WITHOUT accelerant , with accelerant you do 9-15k  damage with each fire pillar AND you stun everyone . THIS.ISNT.BAD.

 

If you feel it is , you might be doing something wrong.

 

Look at my link from my detailled post   i posted right above . Because like you i'm not happy by the changes (especially because of the new energy cost of WoF ) and also because imo none of the real problems were addressed

In my opinion, using one ability, just to facilitate the use of one or more others, and making them bad as standalone abilities is quite bad.

I think you might be in the minority thinking otherwise.

I don't think ember should require an ability to buff her abilities, but needs a damage buff without an energy dump gimmick to it first.

Sure the stun is nice and all, but you can get stun on fire blast now.

[RobWasHere]

I like new fireblast a most. Press 2 then repeatly 3 on efficency build effectively stunlocks whole rooms. WoF, at 10s duration I dont see any difference except cast speed.

[ReizoRyuu]

To be clear , with max power strength  each fire pillar hit for  2k-3k WITHOUT accelerant , with accelerant you do 9-15k  damage with each fire pillar AND you stun everyone . THIS.ISNT.BAD.

 

If you feel it is , you might be doing something wrong.

 

The very fact that you are saying max power strength on ember, means you are completely out of touch since it means you are wrecking her efficiency and duration.

Unless you think spending 78 energy on accelerant and then another 78 energy to get 5 seconds of damage (and then be completely tapped out and defenceless) is somehow a good idea.

THIS.INFACT.IS.BAD.

[Xtenz]

In my opinion, using one ability, just to facilitate the use of one or more others, and making them bad as standalone abilities is quite bad.

I think you might be in the minority thinking otherwise.

I don't think ember should require an ability to buff her abilities, but needs a damage buff without an energy dump gimmick to it first.

Sure the stun is nice and all, but you can get stun on fire blast now.

 

And this skill does something else than Buffing your abilities , remember ? :)

[Xtenz]

The very fact that you are saying max power strength on ember, means you are completely out of touch since it means you are wrecking her efficiency and duration.

Unless you think spending 78 energy on accelerant and then another 78 energy to get 5 seconds of damage (and then be completely tapped out and defenceless) is somehow a good idea.

THIS.INFACT.IS.BAD.

 

I was saying this in order to make a point , i'm not doing  a max power strength build because you simply cant BECAUSE you need to balance out all other stats that have way too much  value . 

 

AND this is her main problem , all stats have too much value on her because she initially lack everything . (except her damage scaling which is really good)

 

Stop being so straight forward and jumping into quick conclusions .

 

If you wanna know how i exactly feel about ember and have a correct discution with me read my initial post in the first place ( https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/388985-ember-changes-post-15110-megathread/page-7#entry4291866 ) .

 

And about #313  , i might be in the minority but my initial post which is on the  7th page , have less visibility than yours  on the first page yet it has been upvoted  4 times more than yours . Odd , isnt it .

Edited January 22, 2015 by Xtenz

[00zau]

 

Xtenz, on 22 Jan 2015 - 4:13 PM, said:

Ember kit ISNT bad . What is bad is how she scales on EVERYTHING because she lacks everything ( except damage)

 

 

What do you mean she doesn't lack damage? she only has damage because of a skill. you need to spend energy to have damage. does that not strike you as odd? It's one thing to have synergy between skills, it is another altogether to be completely dependent on it.

 

That's why I don't like Accelerant. What other frame needs to use two powers in order to deal decent damage? Accelerant is a band-aid for Ember's kit; instead of buffing her skills to make them do viable damage, they gave her a skill to make her other skills do viable damage.

 

Replace the Fireball augment with one that makes Fireball automatically proc blast (more CC!)

 

Remove accelerant, leaving the new fireblast as a o-sh** CC skill.

 

Fireblast is (or will be once they finish the fixes) alright now. Maybe make it 50 energy instead of 75.

 

Give WoF a garunteed fire proc, and some kind of additional effect. Maybe merge some of Overheat's damage mitigation into it. Maybe give Ember a ~Shatter Shield level resistance to melee attacks and deal an extra, free, WoF hit to any enemy that hits her in melee.

 

Buff damage on her kit to make her skills do usable damage without accelerant.

[MrNonApplicable]

And this skill does something else than Buffing your abilities , remember ? :)

What?

[geninrising]

I like new fireblast a most. Press 2 then repeatly 3 on efficency build effectively stunlocks whole rooms. WoF, at 10s duration I dont see any difference except cast speed.

WoF is more expensive if you even touch duration at all which is the bread and butter of her kit due to the entire kit necessitating use of Accelerant in order to apply decent damage.

What?

Stun in an AOE

[ReizoRyuu]

I was saying this in order to make a point , i'm not doing  a max power strength build because you simply cant BECAUSE you need to balance out all other stats that have way too much  value . 

 

AND this is her main problem , all stats have too much value on her because she initially lack everything . (except her damage scaling which is really good)

 

Stop being so straight forward and jumping into quick conclusions .

 

What this mean P

 

Your point is bad, nobody is being straightforward. Several others and myself have pointed out how dependant she is on all power mod stats and accelerant/fire damage. Your post was just saying you can get a lot of damage, but all of us already know this, it's an irrelevant thing to bring up because it would be a horrible build to actually run.

So yeah what you posted was in fact a bad thing, not a good thing.

[Nosferagon]

Yes . And i'm fine with that gameplay-wise , yes you have to spend mana but the results are there , when you do your damage scales very high . (She is the ONLY warframe that has a double scaling damage-wise  ; to explain there is the normal power strength scaling , and the accelerant debuff scaling)

 

To be clear , with max power strength  each fire pillar hit for  2k-3k WITHOUT accelerant , with accelerant you do 9-15k  damage with each fire pillar AND you stun everyone . THIS.ISNT.BAD.

 

If you feel it is , you might be doing something wrong.

 

Look at my detailled post   i posted right above . Because like you i'm not happy by the changes (especially because of the new energy cost of WoF ) and also because imo none of the real problems were addressed

What i personally think is wrong is putting out values with Max Power Strenght. Only being able to have damage just through a completely focused build is wrong. I say this now about Ember and i'll say it again  if they don't change the way Saryn ult works. (which i still think is a bug they didn't bother to fix).

 

Also, where do you get these values? do you have a screenshot? I'm asking because according to WF Builder with all three power strenght mods each tick only does 1136 damage without accelerant. With the accelerant debuff at 710% it does 8065.60 damage. we're not counting even damage reduction from armor and such.

[MrNonApplicable]

Stun in an AOE

Yeah, I know accelerant stuns, I just don't understand why he made the point. Fire blast stuns too, she's no vauban, we don't need a fire frame to spec into CC. When we think of fire, we think pain and damage, not CC.

[AlexanderDarko]

Xtenz please..

You are wrong. Just check the other "damage dealer" role  frames.. more tanky and even more usefull .. For example check Volt.. Didn't deals that extreme damage but 1 shock or ulti and the half map is stunned.. spam shock = instant stunlock.. Or just check the other frames.

Ember's WoF like you wrote deals extreme damage with Accelerant.. BUT  You cannot create a correct build  that you can spam them both,when you have MAX Power strengh.Okay it is not impossible if you have tons of energy restore, but then think about the rookies/ newcomers.. They should learn these..

 

 

Listen people.. Just Shut up and let DE work :D

I know how bad feeling is when you play with a starter frame and weapons to level it up and someone just spam ulti and just run away..

But For F**ksSake Who really cares? 

It is a part of the game. Play in solo or with friends.

Dont cry about "XX is too Op NERF it immediately!!"

 

Ember was a mid game frame.. okay.. there is soo many frame that is more useful on higher levels, so she really needs some buff, cause every frame have abilities to make the hardest maps not that hard.. 

For example Nova->Molecular prime-> Slow [on harder levels its dmg just suck] Saryn-> Ulti-> Stunlock or Molt for escape.. Loki-> Stealth, Disarm.. Excalibur blind..etcetcetc..

 

It is okay that they tested Ember and tried to buff her.. but Even with a Blind rage mod nearly every frame can deal more damage.. (Saryn, Volt.......)

She really needed a buff but please dont rape her ultimate.. Every Frame have its own role.. Ember is a damage dealer.. a DESTROYER .. So please :)

[Vaskadar]

WoF needs to cause panic in targets caught in the blasts.