The Rhino Syndrome

[Qynchou]

- ask them how much it costs them to use Stomp. If it's 70 or more it's a bad Rhino.

My stomp lasts 35 seconds with a 2.5 damage multiplier. This one isnt accurate.

 

 

 

Another thing we discussed (in game, not on the forums) was moving Rhino's parts out to Pluto, so that he's no longer a noob frame easily obtainable on Venus.  This would justify making him better at his tank role, and hopefully by Pluto people have learned to play the game somewhat.

People will still be able to buy rhino prime off the market very cheap.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Qynchou

[Holeypaladin]

 

People will still be able to buy rhino prime off the market very cheap.

Cheap according to who?  New players don't really have a way to farm things and sell them.  They have to actually buy plat in order to spend it.

 

And if they're willing to pay for the plat... well good for them.  They're supporting the game.  Can't complain.  That's how Warframe stays in business.  If iron skin is rebalanced according to my suggestion, it's still not a problem.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[traybong111]

My stomp lasts 35 seconds with a 2.5 damage multiplier. This one isnt accurate.

 

 

 

People will still be able to buy rhino prime off the market very cheap.

 

You mean Roar...

 

And yeah unless Prime stuff gets mastery locked or something people will just buy off Rhino Prime, just like what happened with Frost. 

[IfritKajiTora]

Boltor Prime sadly doesn't have Mastery lock. Rhino yes on Rank2 available lol. All other frames have no mastery require but you know. OP frames should have mastery lock


Mesa Mastery 4 (Peacemaker killing everything with auto aim ability lol)
Ash Mastery 5 (Too easy killing stuff on low and medium level missions Blade Storm 2k damage + 35% per second from bleeding so around 3.5k damage lol)
Rhino Mastery 6 (Iron Skin 1200 health on low level missions its OP and Rhino Stomp to stop everything moving.
Frost Mastery 6 (Snow Globe 3500 health on low level missions its OP)
Trinity Mastery 7 (Because of 75% damage reduction, Energy vampire and Blessing that regenerate health and shield, Players can obtain her too quickly and just rush missions and be a noob no good team healing :/ )
Loki Mastery 7 (Loki is simply OP with invisibility and Radial Disarm+Decoy to grab the group of enemies to one place and then kill them, also noobs don't know how to play him and die too quickly so Mastery rank require)
Nyx Mastery 8 (Chaos OP no limitation to how many enemies can be on chaos)
Valkyr Mastery 9 (Ekhm Immortality with health drain? Hysteria OP)
Nova Mastery 10 (The most OP frame because of Molecular Prime = Slowing enemies, Double damage, 800damage per explosion, 10 enemies = 8k damage + double damage 16k Holy fuq)

Edited January 25, 2015 by IfritKajiTora

[Holeypaladin]

Technically, all frames are supposed to be equal.

 

They're not, obviously.  But they're supposed to be.

[-CM-Shymaw]

Boltor Prime sadly doesn't have Mastery lock. Rhino yes on Rank2 available lol. All other frames have no mastery require but you know. OP frames should have mastery lock

Mesa Mastery 4 (Peacemaker killing everything with auto aim ability lol)

Ash Mastery 5 (Too easy killing stuff on low and medium level missions Blade Storm 2k damage + 35% per second from bleeding so around 3.5k damage lol)

Rhino Mastery 6 (Iron Skin 1200 health on low level missions its OP and Rhino Stomp to stop everything moving.

Frost Mastery 6 (Snow Globe 3500 health on low level missions its OP)

Trinity Mastery 7 (Because of 75% damage reduction, Energy vampire and Blessing that regenerate health and shield, Players can obtain her too quickly and just rush missions and be a noob no good team healing :/ )

Loki Mastery 7 (Loki is simply OP with invisibility and Radial Disarm+Decoy to grab the group of enemies to one place and then kill them, also noobs don't know how to play him and die too quickly so Mastery rank require)

Nyx Mastery 8 (Chaos OP no limitation to how many enemies can be on chaos)

Valkyr Mastery 9 (Ekhm Immortality with health drain? Hysteria OP)

Nova Mastery 10 (The most OP frame because of Molecular Prime = Slowing enemies, Double damage, 800damage per explosion, 10 enemies = 8k damage + double damage 16k Holy fuq)

 

All frames are meant to be equal and that would just increase the "best loadout" mentality. Still Prime frames could be unlocked via playing the original frame for enough time.

[LepraSK]

I have an idea for iron skin, make Rhino slower if its active. You want to be a tank? Ok here you go, strong, slow and have some aggro again on top. Some bulkier visual effect would be cool too, and maybe toggleable. I love my Rhino prime, but its ridiculous that a tank is almost fastest frame in the game.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

Iron Skin doesn't need a nerf, it needs a rework. It is too strong in the early game with no mods but is useless in the late game with mods.

 

Prime gear needs to be master locked and can only be bypassed by Prime Access.

 

The current IS may as well be an off-switch for players brains. That's bad design.

[geninrising]

Cheap according to who?  New players don't really have a way to farm things and sell them.  They have to actually buy plat in order to spend it.

 

And if they're willing to pay for the plat... well good for them.  They're supporting the game.  Can't complain.  That's how Warframe stays in business.  If iron skin is rebalanced according to my suggestion, it's still not a problem.

This guy omg, he got laughed off his own thread and comes begging here SMH.

[trieuazn0]

assuming that everyone here is not the casual 12 year old COD player, getting rhino prime off the market dose not even cost that much, ive seen sets sold at price less then 50p, thats like one day of lunch money (less then 5$ US)

 

imo, i think the Normal Rhino should be moved to the Tenno lab. why? becasue New players Don't really have access to the lab or will know about rhino, unless someone has told them in game or they have done some Hardcore Research before hand

 

-off topic- Iron skin is already good for a second skill

this skill practically lets you finnish a mission without receiving any damage, Loki second skill (Invis) may make him un-targetable, but he can still be hit form things like Door Lazors or tile traps and what not, there is no other Second skill that could compare defencively to Rhino's iron skin

[Burns2PvP]

This forum post needs more views.

 

The new WF is complete trash, I remember it taking atleast 1 - 4 minutes to kill a boss (Kind of like ruk with an AoE now) than 3 seconds to kill them, Maxed.

 

Its a bit of BS that new players get all that I worked for, for ages.

Edited January 25, 2015 by deadinflict

[BluelitHalo]

I main Rhino and I've been using Iron Skin lately as spammable CC with the Iron Shrapnel augment. Seems to work much better than wasting energy to wait for Iron Skin to melt off while you're traversing a heavily enemy controlled area. I'd rather just knock them down and avoid damage entirely.

I also don't see much of a point in getting Rhino Prime with the his +11% faster sprint speed, when I can still just aerial melee and copter my way to victory. Plus, I don't like the forced gold plating.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Sonitorum

[RoosterTheRed]

I have an idea for iron skin, make Rhino slower if its active. You want to be a tank? Ok here you go, strong, slow and have some aggro again on top. Some bulkier visual effect would be cool too, and maybe toggleable. I love my Rhino prime, but its ridiculous that a tank is almost fastest frame in the game.

 

 

Only if you have both a Rhino Prime, an Arcane Vanguard, and a Rush mod. Otherwise, Rhino is one of the slowest frames in the game. And if someone works that hard to make a speedy Rhino, don't you think it's worth it? 

[Thaumatos]

Just bring back that old beginning of Warframe

You mean where Iron Skin was an invuln button?

 

Yeah...because that'll stop people from wanting Rhino...

 

Open your mind son.

[LepraSK]

Only if you have both a Rhino Prime, an Arcane Vanguard, and a Rush mod. Otherwise, Rhino is one of the slowest frames in the game. And if someone works that hard to make a speedy Rhino, don't you think it's worth it? 

You forgot maglev, and without him speedy rhino is not worth it.

[HueOfBlood]

problem is i dont get much invite requests from rhino users and i dont see much rhinos in game

[-CM-Shymaw]

You mean where Iron Skin was an invuln button?

 

Yeah...because that'll stop people from wanting Rhino...

 

Open your mind son.

 

If you didn´t catch my meaning, I meant that progression rate we had then.

[taiiat]

Iron Skin doesn't need a nerf, it needs a rework. It is too strong in the early game with no mods but is useless in the late game with mods.

i concur. but all four of Rhino's abilities are asking for attention, and have been for quite a while.

 

or I fear I may never have appreciated anything in the game but ROFL-stomping enemies, which gets boring in any game quickly, and consequently would've enjoyed the game less.

and this.... is exactly what we're worried about. people using Rhino too early (or something like that, and becoming completely reliant on it), then falsely saying something like 'this game sucks low Level Missions are a cakewalk and high Level Missions are impossible'.

 

and then we lose a Player. and probably everyone he's friends with.

:|

 

 

meanwhile, in high Level Missions, nobody uses a Rhino, because he brings nothing useful to the team. 

more :|

 

 

Edit:

infact, i STILL see people judging Warframe on opinions created years ago. "oh, that game. that game sucks, it's p2w and Rhino is the only good Warframe".

;-;

Edited January 25, 2015 by taiiat

[Monolake]

Ok lets get to the core of the problem, shall we? People are not learning the game relying on a beginner frame - Rhino - that makes early levels very easy, thus they arrive to high level game unprepared and fail. So the problem is that they don't learn, not the Rhino in particular. 'Rhino noobs' is only a symptom of a bigger issue.

We need the game to be better at teaching players. If you want to improve education level you don't make students life harder, you improve schools, you publish better guides and textbooks and even more important - make them more accessable. 

We need the game to be better at teaching players, its done not by denying them the equipment, its done by clever mission design that teaches. Its done by proper explanation of frames abilities, which this game lacks. New players are in the blind, they are told bare minimum of information. Abilities description is often misleading. You have to go to the  wiki or search youtube guides for anything. That is the real problem here, not Rhino. 

Warframe needs better and more in-game information and guides. Prologue (Vors prise) was big step at improving new players experience, but the game needs more, especially at teaching frame abilities. That should be the focus.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Monolake

[silmarilion6]

By God! I don't think i have every seen a thread with so much hate and ignorance. There are some valid points here but they are overwhelmed by just plain hate driven stupidity. It's hard for me not to give in the hate and call most of posters here *&*%$#@! .

[geninrising]

The problem really does not come so much down to teaching new players. The problem comes from the semi casual gameplay WF experiences that lulls players into thinking no skill is involved or very little skill.

 

Players currently have access to an array of abilities that trivialize virtually all content we face throughout the entire solar system as well as tier 1,2,3 and quite a large chunk of tier 4 content.

 

Players can Run a pure IS build throughout the entire solar system tier 1 2 and 3 with nary a problem to be had and thus are not required to hone skill whatsoever. By the same token we have other frames who's ultimates will clear a whole room of targets with a single button press and therefore players have learned several very bad habits we can attribute to LAZINESS.

 

Thus when said players enter into a situation where their laziness cannot maintain said ease of play they become frustrated and either give up, avoid said circumstances entirely except when using a frame that has infinite scaling(loki, Nova, Banshee, Nyx), or scream for change from the developers to allow their particular frame of choice to return to said lazy play regardless of enemy levels.

 

This is the impetus for players wanting a change to IS for example to allow Rhino to facetank( I wish that word would crawl into a ditch and die already) again. Rather than trying to examine how an ability functions within the aegis of DE's balancing efforts, and seeing if there is a deficiency within that area of operation. 

 

I believe that players must face necessary hardships to realize what they have and how effective it is. In addition it is incumbent upon players themselves to develop skill rather than really upon that P#2W mentality that pervades WF atm.

 

Rhino is a well rounded frame that excels in damage mitigation through various means. In addition he provides an outstanding damage bonus to his allies that stacks on top of any other damage boost in play(ie: M Prime, Sonar, melee stealth damage boost), as well as an ability that provides high mobility in order to get him from place to place effectively.

 

The only "problem" for Rhino players is when they decide any part of his kit does not deserve mods and they focus on one aspect thus creating Rhinoobs.

Edited January 25, 2015 by geninrising

[Ronyn]

You know I've seen a lot of threads pop out and make some claim about what is played too much...what isnt used...what is relied on here..there..etc.

And my question is simple-How in the heck do you know?

 

A few weeks back there were a bunch of people talking about almost nobody ever uses Kubrows.

Well, the dev's threw the actual statistics of the last months use on the boards.

Turns out nearly half the companions used were Kubrows. yeah...

 

See what you think you know from your personal interactions does not represent what actually happens across the board.

Remember that before you do the whole "People use X" argument.

[Qynchou]

This forum post needs more views.

 

The new WF is complete trash, I remember it taking atleast 1 - 4 minutes to kill a boss (Kind of like ruk with an AoE now) than 3 seconds to kill them, Maxed.

 

Its a bit of BS that new players get all that I worked for, for ages.

This is true. I remember seeing some vid during closed beta of a dude 1 shotting ancients with charged furax attacks. That was beast

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

The problem really does not come so much down to teaching new players. The problem comes from the semi casual gameplay WF experiences that lulls players into thinking no skill is involved or very little skill.

Players currently have access to an array of abilities that trivialize virtually all content we face throughout the entire solar system as well as tier 1,2,3 and quite a large chunk of tier 4 content.

Players can Run a pure IS build throughout the entire solar system tier 1 2 and 3 with nary a problem to be had and thus are not required to hone skill whatsoever. By the same token we have other frames who's ultimates will clear a whole room of targets with a single button press and therefore players have learned several very bad habits we can attribute to LAZINESS.

Thus when said players enter into a situation where their laziness cannot maintain said ease of play they become frustrated and either give up, avoid said circumstances entirely except when using a frame that has infinite scaling(loki, Nova, Banshee, Nyx), or scream for change from the developers to allow their particular frame of choice to return to said lazy play regardless of enemy levels.

Even that's only part of the problem. I generally agreed with you until you hit "LAZINESS". Another large part of the problem is that, because our abilities are powerful without challenge and can be modded into having few, if any, limits, the only challenge in this game comes from taking away the things we have or making them irrelevant. They come from things completely unavoidable attacks, like Seeker and Ballistica shots, Slash procs from hitscan enemies, Toxic Eximi procs that cover a huge range and offer no way of attacking the target without charging through and hoping to get lucky, and Hellion rockets. They come from enemy buffs to the point of rendering weapons useless, shown with Ancients stacking over and over as well as Nullifier bubbles. They come from debuffing us so we can't use the skills we're supposed to rely on, as shown with Nullifiers and Parasitic Eximi.

This game alternates between leaving you bored when you can use your superpowers and weapons, and leaving you feeling punished when you can't. In this game, difficulty doesn't come from pushing our skills to the limits, because they too often have no limits. Instead, difficulty comes from taking our skills away. This is why nerfing, villified by gamers everywhere, must happen in this game. We cannot have our limits pushed if we have none; we cannot have our skills tested if nothing can test them; we cannot feel progression if it's only something to be taken from us.

Iron Skin is like a microcosm of the problem, but the problem extends to every component of our arsenals. It's not laziness; it's players being unable to feel progression because they have already achieved god-like status. The game trained them to win with it, and it only feels like a punishment to them when they no longer can rely on it because they were given no other skills.

Mario teaches players to jump early on, and then teaches them to get better at it, and then asks them to do it better when the game gets harder. Warframe with Rhino teaches players to Iron Skin early on, then teaches them nothing, and then tells them to throw it out when the game gets harder. Warframe as a whole teaches players to spam abilities and oneshot enemies, then teaches them nothing, and then tells them their guns no longer work and their abilities no longer work when the game gets harder. This is just bad progression.

Edited January 25, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[Monolake]

You know I've seen a lot of threads pop out and make some claim about what is played too much...what isnt used...what is relied on here..there..etc.

And my question is simple-How in the heck do you know?

 

A few weeks back there were a bunch of people talking about almost nobody ever uses Kubrows.

Well, the dev's threw the actual statistics of the last months use on the boards.

Turns out nearly half the companions used were Kubrows. yeah...

 

See what you think you know from your personal interactions does not represent what actually happens across the board.

Remember that before you do the whole "People use X" argument.

I'll tell you how: look at in-game stats usage of any large clan - Rhino will be the most overall used, or at least second most used. It's also backed up by several suveys where Rhino came as one of the most popular and most used.

 

BTW those stats of sentinels/pets usage from the stream are bogus, again you can check clan stats - its Carrier ~70% (Kubrows are counted separately, but still those stats have nothing to do with real usage, they might be from the time when Kobrows were new and many used them indeed, but not overall)

Edited January 25, 2015 by Monolake