Rhino's Iron Skin: Suggestion For Scaling (While Still Keeping It Relatively Balanced)

[Ronyn]

2200 HP is fine in T4 content before infinite content numbers start kicking in (just because it only takes a few hits at this level doesn't mean it's useless; those few hits allow you to play in a completely different manner from other warframes.)  Allowing armor to affect IS or scaling it to enemy level somehow could make it a little better at this point but it it serviceable as-is.  Being able to use all your abilities effectively with a 2200 HP IS is objectively better than having a 3400 HP IS and not even being able to cast it freely due to lower efficiency in addition to neutering pretty much all of your abilities (especially Charge and Roar, though some people prefer a short range Charge for effortless knockdowns in melee.)

 

This reasoning is exactly why many frown upon rhino mains. Focusing SOLELY on iron skin is a selfish build, at least a stomp build brings cc to the table and helps the team friend

 

Good grief guys...

 

Let me be clear that at no point did I say A)I thought Iron Skin was useless at 2200, B) that I want to use only iron skin and not all powers and C)that I am OK with how iron skin is only good at protecting Rhino.

 

As it is right now, Iron skin is only a form of personal defense and offers little to no help to allies. As a personal defense tool it is indeed serviceable.

However,Iron skin is heavily lacking as a tool for actually tanking. Tanking as defined by the ability to mitigate damage for both self and allies.

ideally, Rhinos total kit would have slid synergy that would allow him to protect himself and allies. Nothing selfish about that goal. And I have no desire to see the entire frame focus on just one power or overuse of the ultimate.

I have been involved in several discussions about HOW to achieve that on these boards.

I'd be happy to delve into again but only if everyone involved understands what I'm after.... 

[RealPandemonium]

Good grief guys...

 

Let me be clear that at no point did I say A)I thought Iron Skin was useless at 2200, B) that I want to use only iron skin and not all powers and C)that I am OK with how iron skin is only good at protecting Rhino.

 

As it is right now, Iron skin is only a form of personal defense and offers little to no help to allies. As a personal defense tool it is indeed serviceable.

However,Iron skin is heavily lacking as a tool for actually tanking. Tanking as defined by the ability to mitigate damage for both self and allies.

ideally, Rhinos total kit would have slid synergy that would allow him to protect himself and allies. Nothing selfish about that goal. And I have no desire to see the entire frame focus on just one power or overuse of the ultimate.

I have been involved in several discussions about HOW to achieve that on these boards.

I'd be happy to delve into again but only if everyone involved understands what I'm after.... 

I don't think that tanking needs to be so overt.  Tanking by just taking the point and drawing aggro from enemies by intervening directly is much more agreeable to me and is what really makes one feel like they are working with the team, as opposed to pressing the aggro button and chugging metaphorical potions.  IS already increases your threat level in some way; tweaking that in a way that offers IS increased health at the cost of greater threat is probably the best direction to take this. 

[Djego27]

We're assuming max efficiency.  Something like this would require you to recast Roar relatively often but otherwise doesn't have a real downside: http://goo.gl/2gtb6d

 

People need to stop equipping maxed Blind Rages.  It's really annoying hearing fallacious arguments about Efficiency being too costly when it's really not.

 

I use something similar but with primed flow and iron shrapnell instead of duration mods. The reason why I use primed flow is that I actually consider playing rino as group tank when I play him, because of the not really sufficent agro on IS to guarantee the safty of others your only option is a fairly exessive use of CC(like keeping it up non stop if required), what means utilizing rino stomp and iron sharpnell to prevent as good as possible damage to other players in your team.

 

2.2k IS are quite a good defence if you don't face tank, just a reminder the damage that removes Iron skin in seconds will kill nearly every other frame in halve of the timeframe, while you can fall back on shield, armor and healt while refreshing it.

 

The idea of the OP is actually good. It would reduce the amount of players that only use 1 ability on lower levels and gives rino a bit more lasting power at high levels.

 

In my opinion the main problem with rino is tanking as a role requires a certain control over agro and the abiltiy to transfer agro from other players to you. Currently the only thing that makes you something close to a tank is the strong CC lockdown you can use, however you can do next to nothing to preven targets shooting the squishy frame next to you instead of you.

 

A solution to this would be the ability to use iron skin to transfer agro from other player that are not at 100% HP to you within 30 meters around you when you cast iron skin(just make it recastable) for 5s. By this you could actually play rino as a tank and prevent more squishy frames from dieing as long as they stick close to you and you keep eye on the HP bars like with Oberon, Mag or Trintiy.

[sanj66]

2200 HP is fine in T4 content before infinite content numbers start kicking in (just because it only takes a few hits at this level doesn't mean it's useless; those few hits allow you to play in a completely different manner from other warframes.)  Allowing armor to affect IS or scaling it to enemy level somehow could make it a little better at this point but it it serviceable as-is.  Being able to use all your abilities effectively with a 2200 HP IS is objectively better than having a 3400 HP IS and not even being able to cast it freely due to lower efficiency in addition to neutering pretty much all of your abilities (especially Charge and Roar, though some people prefer a short range Charge for effortless knockdowns in melee.)

that can be 1 shotted by a bombard on round 1 of a t4 interception, you would not be able to revive a team mate with that either, all it would need is 1 heavy unit or a new mob spawn and both of you are dead.

[sanj66]

I use something similar but with primed flow and iron shrapnell instead of duration mods. The reason why I use primed flow is that I actually consider playing rino as group tank when I play him, because of the not really sufficent agro on IS to guarantee the safty of others your only option is a fairly exessive use of CC(like keeping it up non stop if required), what means utilizing rino stomp and iron sharpnell to prevent as good as possible damage to other players in your team.

 

2.2k IS are quite a good defence if you don't face tank, just a reminder the damage that removes Iron skin in seconds will kill nearly every other frame in halve of the timeframe, while you can fall back on shield, armor and healt while refreshing it.

 

The idea of the OP is actually good. It would reduce the amount of players that only use 1 ability on lower levels and gives rino a bit more lasting power at high levels.

 

In my opinion the main problem with rino is tanking as a role requires a certain control over agro and the abiltiy to transfer agro from other players to you. Currently the only thing that makes you something close to a tank is the strong CC lockdown you can use, however you can do next to nothing to preven targets shooting the squishy frame next to you instead of you.

 

A solution to this would be the ability to use iron skin to transfer agro from other player that are not at 100% HP to you within 30 meters around you when you cast iron skin(just make it recastable) for 5s. By this you could actually play rino as a tank and prevent more squishy frames from dieing as long as they stick close to you and you keep eye on the HP bars like with Oberon, Mag or Trintiy.

this is the main problem and mistake everyone makes, they compare a supposed tank frame to every other frame and not to the relative frames in his supposed niche, you cannot compare a weak tank to a caster and then say he survives longer than the caster so he is great where he is. you have to compare him to other tanks or others that can tank, as it is compared to the other tank frames rhino is the weakest, damage reduction far out shines a flat hp skill that does not scale.

[RealPandemonium]

that can be 1 shotted by a bombard on round 1 of a t4 interception, you would not be able to revive a team mate with that either, all it would need is 1 heavy unit or a new mob spawn and both of you are dead.

If it absorbs his rocket then you just recast it; other frames would be one-shotted by it.  

 

Also, Corrupted Bombards do stupid amounts of damage; I personally do not find them OK and consider them to be a bandaid against 4spam.  Giving Corrupted Bombards and Nullifiers 1-shot weapons to make T4 missions feel like a challenge is not a solution and should not be tolerated.

Edited February 19, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[LazyKnight]

Also, Corrupted Bombards do stupid amounts of damage; I personally do not find them OK and consider them to be a bandaid against 4spam. 

I am almost positive they added them to have a chance to kill players if their 'cc' is delayed.  All these band-aid type measure will keep getting added until a consensuses in reached on what should be nerfed instead; such as cc, energy, cool-downs.

[RealPandemonium]

I am almost positive they added them to have a chance to kill players if their 'cc' is delayed.  All these band-aid type measure will keep getting added until a consensuses in reached on what should be nerfed instead; such as cc, energy, cool-downs.

By the time that happens the game will literally be "spam or be killed" and tuning it back to reasonable levels will be a handful, even more than it is now.  I hope that we don't have to reach that point for DE to put their foot down and weed out radial nukes, replacing them with abilities that are interesting but still strong if used well.

[Ronyn]

I don't think that tanking needs to be so overt.  Tanking by just taking the point and drawing aggro from enemies by intervening directly is much more agreeable to me and is what really makes one feel like they are working with the team, as opposed to pressing the aggro button and chugging metaphorical potions.

To be clear-at no point here did I suggest that there should be a simple "press the aggro button and chug metaphorical potions".

However, it is unrealistic that Rhino will be able to effectively keep his allies protected without some form of aggro control.

 

  IS already increases your threat level in some way; 

Iron Skin SUPPOSEDLY increases threat level in some way but it does not seem to be working.

 

 tweaking that in a way that offers IS increased health at the cost of greater threat is probably the best direction to take this. 

That is along the lines of the last suggestion I made last month in another thread.

 

If it absorbs his rocket then you just recast it; other frames would be one-shotted by it.  

What other frames are you referring to? The casters and rogue types sure...but not the ones that are more like tanks.

Frost's Snowglobe when used with smart timing can absorb several of those shots.

Trinity with Link can absorb several of those shots.

Valkyr with Hysteria can absorb several of those shots.

 

Like Sanj66 said-

this is the main problem and mistake everyone makes, they compare a supposed tank frame to every other frame and not to the relative frames in his supposed niche, you cannot compare a weak tank to a caster and then say he survives longer than the caster so he is great where he is. you have to compare him to other tanks or others that can tank, as it is compared to the other tank frames rhino is the weakest, damage reduction far out shines a flat hp skill that does not scale.

-which is very important to keep in mind.

[Serialkillerwhale]

How about if Iron Skin had a "Damage Cap" where it can't take more than 300 damage per second?

[LazyKnight]

How about if Iron Skin had a "Damage Cap" where it can't take more than 300 damage per second?

That would be similar to a nullifier's bubble, and it would make IS extremely good at going against NPC with slow firing weapons. It would also act as fixed duration invulnerability (modifiable by IS's max health/300=seconds lived), against everything else. Might work, but I am not sure if DE would do something like that because it would be rather durable.

Edited February 20, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Serialkillerwhale]

It wouldn't exactly be good against slow-firing weapons since it doesn't cap damage of indivual shots as much as "How much can be burst down in this time period" Sides, rhino is supposed to be durable. It'd also be probably the only way to make durability that worked against the kind of enemies you'd usually come up against at higher levels.

[Ragnarlee_Prime]

RHINO is suffering like all other frames with abilities that don’t scale infinitely. As a FROST, I understand my fattle-brothers’ pain, his Iron skin becomes paper skin , and our snow globe becomes a glorified Slurpee late game. DE needs to implement ways to either buff our abilities further to be useful in this end-tier gameplay, or create a scaling mechanism with which our abilities can be scaled up by linking it with some stat that we can increase. Paper skin now get RHINO’s health x 30 = paper skin’s health RHINO’s armor x 50 + 1000 = paper skin’ armor (these values are complete BS).

[RealPandemonium]

RHINO is suffering like all other frames with abilities that don’t scale infinitely. 

In non-infinite content?

[LazyKnight]

Well, with the latest developer live-stream show raids are level +80 NPC, it going to put a spotlight on how rhino's Iron-Skin is worthless.

[Ronyn]

In non-infinite content?

Granted, once we start talking about infinite things can get silly.

On the other hand whenever DE raises the cap for end game all powers that don't scale infinitely are the ones that show their age.

In this case-

 

Well, with the latest developer live-stream show raids are level +80 NPC, it going to put a spotlight on how rhino's Iron-Skin is worthless.

-kind of clarifies what the "end" really is. 

[SquidTheSid]

How about this for buffs? 

 

1). As suggested, make Iron Skin have 1/2/3/4 second invulnerability (not affected by duration mods) and it will take 25%/50%/75%/100% of all damage taken during that time (affected by power strength mods) and convert it to additional Ferrite Armor (base Ferrite Armor is 100/200/300/400 now). So, with max power strength, he can tank quite a bit of damage from enemies assuming he gets a good amount of aggro during that invulnerability period. 

 

1*). Alternatively, we can give it a flat damage reduction that scales with power reduction up to 95% and grants him CC immunity and prevents instant fatal blows (maybe by having a damage cap of 300 or something?). 

 

2). Roar now makes Rhino draw high aggro during its initial cast. Roar can now be recast while still active. 

 

3). Stomp can now be recast while active. 

 

These buffs would definitely make Rhino high-tier now, since his tanking ability drastically improves (as it scales with enemy damage output and power strength), he can actually draw high aggro now, and Stomp won't be uncastable if some obscured Lancer is affected  (as tends to happen with stomp). In combination, it might be a bit OP,  but it would bring Rhino to a better place than he's in right now. 

[RealPandemonium]

Well, with the latest developer live-stream show raids are level +80 NPC, it going to put a spotlight on how rhino's Iron-Skin is worthless.

 

-kind of clarifies what the "end" really is. 

 

If we are fighting level 80 units that behave identically stat-wise to the heavy units we can currently face in infinite content then the missions will be a joke.  Every mission will just be THE BEST BUILD equipment/powers and cheesing enemies to the max with things like Disarm+Vortex, Absorb spam, cloaking abilities, Hysteria revives, MPrime slows, SP spam, etc. Locking exclusive content behind infinite content-style enemies would be an alarming turn, especially since the vocal minority could start to consider this content the only content that matters (example: current T4 missions.)

[Ronyn]

If we are fighting level 80 units that behave identically stat-wise to the heavy units we can currently face in infinite content then the missions will be a joke.  Every mission will just be THE BEST BUILD equipment/powers and cheesing enemies to the max with things like Disarm+Vortex, Absorb spam, cloaking abilities, Hysteria revives, MPrime slows, SP spam, etc. Locking exclusive content behind infinite content-style enemies would be an alarming turn, especially since the vocal minority could start to consider this content the only content that matters (example: current T4 missions.)

...in every game with vertical progression the ultimate expression of the game is at it's max level.

Ideally EVERY frame should be able to fulfill their intended role at that max level.

Every power on every frame should be useful for what it is meant to do.

[RealPandemonium]

...in every game with vertical progression the ultimate expression of the game is at it's max level.

Ideally EVERY frame should be able to fulfill their intended role at that max level.

Every power on every frame should be useful for what it is meant to do.

They better get to work re-scaling things, then.

Edited February 21, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Epicagemo]

I didn't read everyone else's posts, but I thought that the nullifiers's shield scaled with certain damage types and such. Copy/Paste that formula might be smart on rhino's skin.

[(PSN)Kish_Lat]

Rhino is already powerful enough. He doesnt need a buff.

[Rakshal]

Rhino is already powerful enough. He doesnt need a buff.

 

 

...he does what other frames do but worse (with maybe the exception to Rhino Stomp).

Edited February 21, 2015 by Rakshal

[gaurdianaq]

Interesting idea... I like my idea better though, just give him like 4-6 seconds of invulnerability where his iron skin absorbs damage and that damage is added to the skin (similar to snow globe) maybe also have it affected by rhinos armor or something. And give it a hard crowd control as well.

[AlphaHorseman]

This idea makes very good sense. It allows the power to scale into later content (as all powers should, in my opinion), but does not make it overpowered. He maintains his role as a tank throughout the game, as per this iteration, but does not turn him into an immortal because enemies can still overcome his defenses, should they focus him down. But, as he is supposed to be the palette Tank, this change supports his role and allows the ability to scale. If Roar isn't an aggro attracting ability, adding aggro attracting to Roar could be interesting, and it could help to synergize his new Iron Skin with the rest of his kit better than it is as of now.