Gender Locking

[arch111]

Male cat frame? Kill him with fire!

Edited March 14, 2015 by arch111

[Hyenasaurus]

I'll be honest. first of all, I am a guy (since tht, apparently, my sex determines my veracity), And, Kuojjo,

I believe that your unconfrt playing them comes from the fact that you were not really educated to allow yourself to view yourself as a woman.

 

We live in a world where men and women are educated to obey to a certain gender (expression of one's self sexuality. this is, the usual misconceptions that you are pushed to obey. example: you are a boy, dont wear pink. don't cry. like football. etc. most of this things dont really translate what the person really is, but what she is supposed to be in the eyes of a bylateral society.), and part of that includes having a certain disdain for the other sex. Even if not officially, we are told that men and women are inherently different, and, since "fake it until you make it" works sometimes, it ends up beeing that way when we grow up.

 

So, since that the worst possible insult for a boy is being called a girl, every guy who has being accused of being girly, or accused others of being girly, (during adolescence, mainly), ends up having a certain... fear, of playing as one

 

More than that, since that most computer games have a male protagonist (please, don't deny it. we all know it's true. yes, there are some with female, but they are not as many, not even by far.), and some of them are placed in an extremely mysoginistic enviromment (sorry, GTA fans. it shows women as objects. face it.), to be presented to a game were you can choose to be one or another leads you to that. I understand. I have already felt that way. the unconfort of being in a woman's skin, even if only in a game. And I like to think I am bypassing it.

And that's why I love warframe. It forces you to try every sex, if you want to take full advantage of their powers. It makes impossible to reach greatness if you refuse to use a very usefull and skilled character just because it has a different sex than yours. It is a lesson we can use on the real world. Our sexual organs are not connected to our brains. no matter what we have on our pants, we are all different persons, and we all can be strong our sensitive, if that's what we want

So, in the end: you are just one in a million who have inherited a sexist education, and, if we can use this game has a metaphor, you are loosing a lot because of it. So, yes, you are narrow minded, but it's not your fault. I advise you to play Mass Effect or Dragon Origins as a female, and trying to talk to female gamers about this. You'll be unconfortable at first, but youll find it very refreshing and realising.

As they say, you cant be free if you don't allow others to be.

 

/claps

 

and ty!

[Oakenman]

i love both genders. in different ways of course. i'm a sucker for the ladies :3

[Ronyn]

I don't have any problem playing as the opposite sex.

Though I do prefer choice in that department as opposed to the frames being locked into only one sex.

I LOVE a ton of cosmetic options. Sex is just another cosmetic option.

I'd pay plat to get choice in that just as I have spent money for color, sandanyas...and whatever else.

 

Honestly I wish this would stop being talked about in the context of all of this other stuff.

I just like options. 

Edited March 14, 2015 by Ronyn

[CapricaSix]

Honestly I wish this would stop being talked about in the context of all of this other stuff.

I just like options. 

Well said.

 

Common sense is a wonderful thing people. It's all about preference; nothing to do with education, feminism, bigotry, perversion, politics, world peace. Just preference...

Edited March 14, 2015 by CapricaSix

[Doom_Bunny]

Well said.

 

Common sense is a wonderful thing people. It's all about preference; nothing to do with education, feminism, bigotry, perversion, politics, world peace. Just preference...

On one hand you say it has nothing to do with all those subjects (plus more) because it's all about OP's preference. However people's preferences can be affected by those subjects and more. If a person derives their preferences from a certain subject and someone hits that subject, it may be possible to change OP's preferences.

 

These subjects are greatly in context. They all talk about what might be causing/caused OP to think this way when many people do not.

[IlluminatedOne]

Since i discoreved nyx and nova i prefer to play as female frames :3
And im role-player. I dont think being role-player is a problem here.

Edited March 15, 2015 by IlluminatedOne

[Ronyn]

On one hand you say it has nothing to do with all those subjects (plus more) because it's all about OP's preference. However people's preferences can be affected by those subjects and more. If a person derives their preferences from a certain subject and someone hits that subject, it may be possible to change OP's preferences.

 

These subjects are greatly in context. They all talk about what might be causing/caused OP to think this way when many people do not.

Context.....sort of. But there is a slippery sloap where several people use these conversations as soapboxes for one thing or another.

 

That is to say: The concern of why someone might want to choose something tends to outweigh the basic concept of choice in these conversations. Yet we know that WHY people want one thing or another in a game experience can be vastly different from person to person. 

And what a person wants in a game experience doesn't necessarily reflect some deeper  aspect of their personality. It might, it might not.

Either way its certainly not clear cut.

 

Some like to role play with certain traits being similar, some like to role play certain traits being different. So what?

If someone finds it easier or more enjoyable to identify with a character when it has certain traits in common with themselves that doesn't inherently mean they have any issue with those of other traits or are insecure in themselves.

If someone has no concern about a certain trait being in common with themselves that doesn't inherently mean they are open to people of other traits or that they are secure in themselves.

 

A guy could be playing a girl character because he likes staring at female butts. Doesn't mean he is bad, it also doesn't mean he is enlightened.

A guy could be playing a guy character because he likes pretending it's him in that world. Doesn't mean he is bad, it also doesn't mean he is enlightened. 

Etc...

 

On the real here...

I greatly applaud DE for how both male and female warframes are represented in a variety of styles and mannerisms.

Moreover I stand up for issue like equality and non-biased representation in many places.

That in mind-I don't feel the desire to jump to any sort of conclusion as to what must be behind someones basic desire to play as one set of cosmetics over the other. Nor do I feel the desire to try to change anybodies preferences under the heading that MAYBE those preferences stem from some negative place.

 

Personally I play all kinds of games. Some where I play actual "characters" like league of legends or evolve so I do not expect to have a choice in their sex. Some where I play a class and get to set it up as I wish to so I do expect a choice in their sex.

The lore of the game dictates a lot.

Unfortunately with Warframes muddy, largely unexplained lore as it is right now....we can't really fall back on that to tell us what is supposed to be going on. Just a bunch of conjecture that is all too often used as an excuse as to why someones preferences on how the whole "gender lock" issue should go.

 

Several years ago I decided to grow my hair long. Took a very, very long time.

These days, when given the choice, I put long hair on my character because it adds a certain sense of identification of "ME" to it.

Does that need to be read into any more than that? Does my preference need to be disected and changed so I no longer want long hair on my characters? I certainly hope not.

Its just hair right?..who cares if I have a preference right?

well, it's just a sex. It doesnt have to be a big deal that someone has a preference in that.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Ronyn

[VoidWraith]

Why would it be a problem?

[Katinka]

I'll play any frame and don't have any issues playing male or female in other games.  In the Mass Effect series I played through 6 times, 3 female & 3 male, with each playthrough making a variety of different choices depending on how I thought that version of Shepard would react according to the personality I gave to that one.  One of them I tried to keep close to what I think I would do to see how it panned out but the other 5 were roleplayed.  I also never had problems playing a hedgehog or an egg with boxing gloves and wellies.

 

So, I don't really mind if they never add a option to change gender but one thing never sat right with me...  The idea that it would be too much effort.  I get that they would have to make an entirely new model and it was said that they might as well make a new powerset and call it a new frame but we are about to see the re-release of the Proto armour for Excalibur.  Was that too much effort?  Why does it not have new powers and count as a new warframe?  Given that I can buy Nyx's animations and use them on Excalibur, would it really be such a stretch for me to buy Excalibur's body shape and use it on Nyx?  There's also the 'Why not both?' approach.  The Blaze design is done and unused but could be released as a new frame and a male body option for Ember just like how I can currently buy a different helmet for her or another frames animation set.  Nyx and Excalibur bodies could be made interchangable while still being separate frames in terms of abilities and I don't see how that is any different from allowing me to use the Proto armour on Excalibur or Excalibur Prime.  I wouldn't expect them all to be done at the same time, that would be unfeasible.  We also didn't get Immortal skins all at the same time and not all frames have the same number of alternate helmets.  But for the frames where the body has already been made, why not do it?

[SilentMobius]

I'll play any frame and don't have any issues playing male or female in other games.  In the Mass Effect series I played through 6 times, 3 female & 3 male, with each playthrough making a variety of different choices depending on how I thought that version of Shepard would react according to the personality I gave to that one.  One of them I tried to keep close to what I think I would do to see how it panned out but the other 5 were roleplayed.  I also never had problems playing a hedgehog or an egg with boxing gloves and wellies.

 

So, I don't really mind if they never add a option to change gender but one thing never sat right with me...  The idea that it would be too much effort.  I get that they would have to make an entirely new model and it was said that they might as well make a new powerset and call it a new frame but we are about to see the re-release of the Proto armour for Excalibur.  Was that too much effort?  Why does it not have new powers and count as a new warframe?  Given that I can buy Nyx's animations and use them on Excalibur, would it really be such a stretch for me to buy Excalibur's body shape and use it on Nyx?  There's also the 'Why not both?' approach.  The Blaze design is done and unused but could be released as a new frame and a male body option for Ember just like how I can currently buy a different helmet for her or another frames animation set.  Nyx and Excalibur bodies could be made interchangable while still being separate frames in terms of abilities and I don't see how that is any different from allowing me to use the Proto armour on Excalibur or Excalibur Prime.  I wouldn't expect them all to be done at the same time, that would be unfeasible.  We also didn't get Immortal skins all at the same time and not all frames have the same number of alternate helmets.  But for the frames where the body has already been made, why not do it?

 

The Proto-armour came directly from Dark Sector, DE's previous game, they have the mesh and textures all ready to go with minimal effort.

 

The Warframes are _tied_ to the powers. the design of the suit echoes the power associated with is. Hence DE don't want Ember with Frost powers.

 

Ember with frost animations is fine because they are both suits and the Tenno inside can move how they want, that's up to the player.

[Ronyn]

The Proto-armour came directly from Dark Sector, DE's previous game, they have the mesh and textures all ready to go with minimal effort.

Having it and using it are two different things.

Do you know for certain that DE did not make a brand new mesh of it for Warframe?

 

 

The Warframes are _tied_ to the powers. the design of the suit echoes the power associated with is. Hence DE don't want Ember with Frost powers.

That does not necessarily indicate that their cannot be two sex's represented.

 

Ember with frost animations is fine because they are both suits and the Tenno inside can move how they want, that's up to the player.

Yet we still don't have an official definition of what a Tenno actually is. Or how whatever they are interacts with the warframe.

 

seriously...this is what I mean by conjecture people use to push their own idea of what they think should happen.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Ronyn

[Ionus]

Having it and using it are two different things.

Do you know for certain that DE did not make a brand new mesh of it for Warframe?

 

When it was released, they mentioned tweaking it only slightly so that it would be the same proportions. Otherwise it is the same mesh.

[SilentMobius]

Having it and using it are two different things.

Do you know for certain that DE did not make a brand new mesh of it for Warframe?

 

I have a Gmod export for the dark sector Hayden Tenno with suit and the SFM converted Warframe proto armour, they are virtually identical save for shaders and a slight rigging adjustment but that could be the export, even down to the wonky quad splitting just above the knees, so yes.

 

That does not necessarily indicate that their cannot be two sex's represented.

 

They absolutely could be represented, DE could produce (E.G.) a female frost at a moments notice. I wouldn't bat an eyelid, However it would be a huge undertaking to produce a separate sculpt for each Warframe (Save Nyx and Excalibur) with a tiny potential audience and minimal return, while at the same time increasing the volume of work needed for every future Warframe. From a fiscal perspective it's lose-lose. 

 

Yet we still don't have an official definition of what a Tenno actually is. Or how whatever they are interacts with the warframe.

 

We have Ordis' line from the limbo quest

 

His final rift walk was a miscal... disaster. Well, perhaps when you occupy this frame, you will use more... caution.

 

That is enough to settle that point IMHO, you need a pretty convincing counter for prevent this being the default assumption.

Edited March 15, 2015 by SilentMobius

[White_Raven]

Don't think you are the one who is running around and killing bad guys. Try to think you are the one who is guiding/linking to the one doing those stuffs.

[CapricaSix]

On one hand you say it has nothing to do with all those subjects (plus more) because it's all about OP's preference. However people's preferences can be affected by those subjects and more. If a person derives their preferences from a certain subject and someone hits that subject, it may be possible to change OP's preferences.

 

These subjects are greatly in context. They all talk about what might be causing/caused OP to think this way when many people do not.

The point is, they're ultimately irrelevant and unnecessary to bring up in suggestion threads such as these, especially when it's never mentioned by OP, which makes it a baseless assumption, not to mention it's very rude and insulting. You could claim I want it because I'm a feminist and I could claim you don't want it because you're a misogynist, where does that end and what's the point? It doesn't matter why I want it, the point is there's a demand for it and it's not really unheard of, tons of games out there including non-mmorpgs have this yet people here are acting like it's the worst thing ever and you should be shot for wanting an optional customisation feature.

 

Like I said, it's customisation, it's in the same category as alternate helmets and colour palettes, there's nothing more to it no matter what anyone says.

 

@Ronyn: Well said again, seems I just repeated what you said in less words now that I've read yours :P

Edited March 15, 2015 by CapricaSix

[Ronyn]

 

I have a Gmod export for the dark sector Hayden Tenno with suit and the SFM converted Warframe proto armour, they are virtually identical save for shaders and a slight rigging adjustment but that could be the export, even down to the wonky quad splitting just above the knees, so yes.

 

fair enough. 

 

 

When it was released, they mentioned tweaking it only slightly so that it would be the same proportions. Otherwise it is the same mesh.

Good solid info. That's what I like to see. Thank you. 

 

 

 

They absolutely could be represented, DE could produce (E.G.) a female frost at a moments notice. I wouldn't bat an eyelid, However it would be a huge undertaking to produce a separate sculpt for each Warframe (Save Nyx and Excalibur) with a tiny potential audience and minimal return, while at the same time increasing the volume of work needed for every future Warframe. From a fiscal perspective it's lose-lose. 

Return is based on the questions of how much work it would take to make verses how much money they could make from selling the alternate sex. Considering how much money they make on selling skins, color pallet's and sandanyas....there is no reason to automatically assume that there is a "tiny potential audience" or that selling alternate sex variants would be a loss. Might make money, might not.

 

 

We have Ordis' line from the limbo quest

His final rift walk was a miscal... disaster. Well, perhaps when you occupy this frame, you will use more... caution.

 

Oh yes that line implies that we are a single tenno inhabiting different warframes.

But that doesn't explain the nature of the tenno or quite how we relate to the frames.

Does that mean we are actual physical, humanoid beings that put on suits cause that doesn't explain why our sex changes from changing armors... Are we like spectral beings of energy that sort of merge into the warframes? 

Are we a sort of AI that are downloaded into them? A biomechanical worm that drills into their spine?

Are we Small aliens that pilot them from the head?  

 

Still some pretty important questions to ask.

 

Really the animation choice may simply be DE saying "hey, let players express themselves"..and may not have a deeper lore meaning. Like choosing the color of our energy.

 

EDIT: let me add this one last line of thoughts. Am I going to keep playing Warframes of both sexes as it is? Oh yes.

Would I pay plat to have some alternate sex options for each frame I play? Oh yes...as long as the prices are reasonable.

Will I be put off if the lore finally get's explained and it turns out that it really wouldn't make sense for alternate sexes? nope.

I'd just be happy we finally got a clear picture of WHY things are as they are.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Ronyn

[HAYABU5A]

tenno have no sexuality or gender, they exist on a higher level of consciousness and warframe exoskeletons have no gender

they just appear male or female based on the original entity used to create that warframe

[Radford_343]

Hehe, I prefer playing female characters in games although I am male. This is a highly personal thing, everyone roleplays differently and on different levels.

[GunDownGrace]

 

 

They absolutely could be represented, DE could produce (E.G.) a female frost at a moments notice. I wouldn't bat an eyelid, However it would be a huge undertaking to produce a separate sculpt for each Warframe (Save Nyx and Excalibur) with a tiny potential audience and minimal return, while at the same time increasing the volume of work needed for every future Warframe. From a fiscal perspective it's lose-lose. 

 

 

 

 thats not entirely accurate..capitalists are often time gated and money gated,which is to say the time is expressed by the hours of work spent..functions like overtime are sometimes authorized should the need arise but this is by itself a highly inflexible system...it doesnt allow for truly "passionate" endurance like staying up for nearly a week straight to get  an art project done

 

the money function in games ruled by a capitalist system irl side is entirely absurd...whether people can make good things or not,how fast they can,how willing they are...is entirely controlled to the nearest decimal point by money

 

therein lies the reason why hobbyists are often of greater talent than full time professionals

 

a full time professional is trapped in the vice like grip of the capitalist system,everything about the passion,which is the source of art,dims over time due to how the money requirement mechanizes the process

 

my art,3d and such,and even my texture re assemblys are of so-so quality,.but consider this...i dont get payed for it,and i only started learning how to do those things in december of last year..after trying to learn how and failing for 15 years

 

my art has literally gone from the equivalent of stick drawing to animated 3d models with sound fx in the course of a couple months...and there are many art hobbyists like me that have done so far far quicker...this in and of itself proves that the hobbyist,the unpayed one,has more "passion" than the full time professional

 

TL;DR

 

given the same company level equipment..and the same burned into the brain by rote knowledge...i could change a male warframe model into a female one,or the other way around,in 1 day

 

this is not a question of capability,or even data storage or logistics...they simply dont want to,for there own personal reasons

 

i do this art for love..not money,and that gives me,and the millions out there just like me and of far greater talent...more strength than any company level artist..provided the fire of our passion remains burning..we will outshine them like a quasar outshines the sun

Edited March 15, 2015 by GunDownGrace

[Katinka]

The Proto-armour came directly from Dark Sector, DE's previous game, they have the mesh and textures all ready to go with minimal effort.

 

Early promo sites showed the model for Blaze.  We have Nyx & Excalibur.  Those models are there and ready to go.  We have seen designs for male-Mag and female-Ash so it is likely there is some progress on them too.  The only issue I see is that it would open people expectations for more but we already experienced that with Immortal skins (Trinity's wait?) and alternate helmets (#3 for not-Loki/Nova).

 

The Warframes are _tied_ to the powers. the design of the suit echoes the power associated with is. Hence DE don't want Ember with Frost powers.

 

Two points:  1) They said they might do a male fire themed frame.  If they have the same theme why not let us switch bodies between the two power sets of similar theme?  2) How exactly do the designs of Nyx and Excalibur echo their individual powers and not each other?  They are twins.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Nope.  Then again do tenno even have gender?  I'd assume the only reason they look like any gender at all is purely for a cosmetic look.  I mean the theme of valkyr just fits better as a female model then a male one to me.

 

I almost always pick females in games just because most things look better with them.  I really only ever make a male character when I want to make a beefy looking warrior.

[(PSN)Strifedecer]

I cant play males. THEY ARE UGLY.

There.

 

Also. You are narrow minded. People like you are the reason games/movies with female protagonists are unpopular and feminism exists.

 

Hate me all you want, but this is the truth.

 

Funny you should call him narrow minded. You barely read his post right.

Male/female, too many people, is a basic form of customization. And people like me try to get their customization on right. 

Dead right.

I wouldn't make my frame pink green because its not really a colour to my liking. I wouldn't give Loki the essence helmet because its not to my taste. I wouldn't pick a female frame because I'm more comfortable playing as a male, being one myself. 

Honestly, nothing against females. Or males playing females. 

We can't all be the same. That's just stupid, and its stupid to assume those with different tastes have negative personalities.

[arch111]

This thread shows, once again, no matter how firmly some argue there will never be gender alternatives, the question and wish for it remain even after 2 years.

Let me challenge you.

Help me come up with a gender-alt design for any frame we can agree on.

Let us see how far we can push that idea, and if we can make it work.

This seem to me, to be the only way to sway others oppinions.

Edited March 15, 2015 by arch111

[xRastaban]

No, I don't have any problem playing either male or female frames. I prefer my Nyx prime though. At first my partner (male) couldn't play female warframes but once he got over it, I can hardly get him to play anything else. Just keep an open mind because the female warframes are some of the best and most powerful warframes to play here.

 

And I am so, so glad this game does not produce 90 percent male warframes and 1 female warframe that's hypersexualized and stupid on occasion. This game rocks because it's the way it is, the way the developers treat its male and female fanbase with equal respect. One reason I'm loyal to this game.

Edited May 24, 2015 by xRastaban