De's Word And Its Lack Of Integrity: Another Viewpoint From Another Long-Time Player

[MichaelSD]

It's a delicate balance for DE. Those items that we pay for are where their paychecks come from. I personally don't mind them adding ways to increase their revenue, as long as they don't push the boundaries of that one phone game I believe is called Dungeon Keeper.

 

My only problem with DE is what appears to be the back and forth with these changes. If something seems "out of place" to them, like a weapon being used too much or an ability being used too much, I still think instead of nerfing they should just make other items comparable. The more options we have BESIDES a boltor p, the more potatoes and forma will be purchased, yes? More purchases, greater diversity, win (or so I'd like to believe). I certainly do not want to invest forma and potatoes in something that might get changed or is non-viable endgame (my Excalibur isn't too happy right now).  

 

This, very well said.

[AlphaHorseman]

It's a delicate balance for DE. Those items that we pay for are where their paychecks come from. I personally don't mind them adding ways to increase their revenue, as long as they don't push the boundaries of that one phone game I believe is called Dungeon Keeper.

 

My only problem with DE is what appears to be the back and forth with these changes. If something seems "out of place" to them, like a weapon being used too much or an ability being used too much, I still think instead of nerfing they should just make other items comparable. The more options we have BESIDES a boltor p, the more potatoes and forma will be purchased, yes? More purchases, greater diversity, win (or so I'd like to believe). I certainly do not want to invest forma and potatoes in something that might get changed or is non-viable endgame (my Excalibur isn't too happy right now).  

+1, this is how I view the issue as well.

 

You make bad things good, and more people will want them. You make good things bad, and people won't want to try any of it.

[Valkyr-Umbra]

I'm glad this thread is still alive. Quite honestly I've been upset with DE since this update launched. There was that whole thing with stealth changes (or poor communication as DE alleges...) Not to mention they pretty much shoved the Excal nerf down our collective throats (they knew it would upset people, he didn't need it, and it was a direct nerf, there was nothing to balance it out).

 

I've barely played since then, I'm definitely not in the mood to buy the Excalibur skin, considering playing him just got a lot more annoying. If DE wants to nerf rep farms then they should nerf them, not our arsenal (and if they want to nerf frames, Excalibur is definitely not the one to start with...)

 

Maybe I'll watch dev stream later and see if they address the community's concerns...

[Im_All_In]

Until they finally realise what they've done,i will keep bumping this post

[Xikiri]

I'm glad this thread is still alive.

 

...

 

Maybe I'll watch dev stream later and see if they address the community's concerns...

Same here. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. But, on the flip side, it's a little disheartening for Warframe's sake that so many people agree.

 

Anyway, did they? Was anything addressed or was it more or less just a foresight for future endeavors? 

[Shy0]

Anyway, did they? Was anything addressed or was it more or less just a foresight for future endeavors? 

 

they said they'll be revisiting frames: https://youtu.be/NG6SnSQwH9A?t=6m10s

 

no serious discussion regarding their intentions and the direction they want to take the game though. the usual sweeping under the rug and hyping future content and releases, though they seem a bit more careful giving potential release dates now.

 

i think it would help if a senior dev or decision maker could pop down to the forums and address some of our concerns periodically, instead of only the cherry-picked questions on the devstreams, or the community people saying they'll relay the info on but then nothing seems to happen.

[NeroGrave]

Well, I'm kinda glad I stopped being a hardcore grinding player in this game since last year after Zephyr and Hydroid's release, I guessed that they would make grind even more ridiculous in the future and then Mesa and Chroma and Limbo made me certain not to come back to this game again except for the forums.

 

Until DE starts to make grinding worthwhile and on a comfortable level, I'm definitely gonna spend little time on this game and move on.

[Xikiri]

they said they'll be revisiting frames: https://youtu.be/NG6SnSQwH9A?t=6m10s

 

no serious discussion regarding their intentions and the direction they want to take the game though. the usual sweeping under the rug and hyping future content and releases, though they seem a bit more careful giving potential release dates now.

 

i think it would help if a senior dev or decision maker could pop down to the forums and address some of our concerns periodically, instead of only the cherry-picked questions on the devstreams, or the community people saying they'll relay the info on but then nothing seems to happen.

...Please tell me this is a joke. This is...well, there's no big or small word for it, so I'll simply say "frustrating."

He seriously just laughed it off. "What changes? *chuckle*" And on top of that, he says if the changes make sense. THIS CHANGE MADE NO SENSE. None. Period.

Energy is incorporeal. The Skana-like projectiles that were once emitted from Excalibur's body are now energy-bound weapons that are summoned with his...well, his energy. Certain energies are not bound by a physical plane. This is just... Y'know, over all, I'm just speechless. Disregarding what's said above, I have no true response to combat this.

Honestly, I couldn't watch the whole answer to the question. I have no desire to. But thanks for bringing this to my attention. I now officially see where DE's interests lie. 

[(PSN)deathfrombelow5]

they said they'll be revisiting frames: https://youtu.be/NG6SnSQwH9A?t=6m10s

 

no serious discussion regarding their intentions and the direction they want to take the game though. the usual sweeping under the rug and hyping future content and releases, though they seem a bit more careful giving potential release dates now.

 

i think it would help if a senior dev or decision maker could pop down to the forums and address some of our concerns periodically, instead of only the cherry-picked questions on the devstreams, or the community people saying they'll relay the info on but then nothing seems to happen.

The dev in charge of weapon balancing seems to be very slow at his job. The braton prime remained in its poor state for quite a while, and we can expect the same from excal. 

 

While DE seems to be much better at communicating then other devs I have interacted with (bit better than Gearbox and WAY better than Bungie), they still are afraid to take the steps of full explanation. Everyone on the forums gets that you need to make money. Share your vision with us of how you can make cash and how we can have fun. Share with us the time you think is optimal for players to get/level a piece of gear. Finally, when there is a poor reaction to a nerf, reverse or revise it. Don't hide behind half explanations and stealth nerfs. 

 

BTW, I am really surprised that this post has survived the heavy hand of the moderators for so long. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by (PS4)deathfrombelow5

[Xikiri]

BTW, I am really surprised that this post has survived the heavy hand of the moderators for so long. 

I'd say it's because the thread isn't filled with people breaking forum rules, save for one or two people that were being rude. I believe their posts were stricken to keep the topic clean of such behavior. (If so, I'm grateful.)

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

 

 

 

.....

 

Excal nerf is one of many steps, some already taken (Ember) to make Warframe into a boring industry standard game, like Dark Souls, Mass Effect, Gears of War, etc.  This is the Year of Quality, same as the last year, one Trojan Nerf Horse after another.

 

But, that's not what Warframe was.  It's not what attracted us to Warframe.  It's not why we spent money on Warframe.  It's not what we want.  This is what we were told we were getting and this is what we want,,,,

 

[Xikiri]

Excal nerf is one of many steps, some already taken (Ember) to make Warframe into a boring industry standard game, like Dark Souls, ... etc.

I somehow overlooked this response...

Anyway. On how Dark Souls being as you put it, there are many ways how the Souls games and now Bloodborne are far more intricate than how you're making them out to be. 

 

 

(Excuse me while I go off topic for a moment. Trust me, there's a reason.)

Demon's Souls, the predecessor to the series, unlocked a certain level of difficulty that was lost to gaming for a few years. Almost every item was a piece of lore, all connecting to how a large and prosperous kingdom fell to its own greed.

 

Dark Souls, the spiritual successor to the concept, was a bleak and terrible world whose very existence had trouble maintaining order. As Solaire stated, it was a world where time was convoluted and broken, and in this broken place was scattered about a piece to the story around every corner. Every item and weapon has its place, even down to the Dung Pies dropped by the Infested Barbarians. The little statue to your left? It has a story and has seen its fair share of torment.

 

Dark Souls II, what I view as the black sheep of the Souls games, shows how the corruption of everything has spread to neighboring lands. I admittedly didn't finish it due to personal reasons, but I still respect the place it has in the series.

 

Bloodborne omitted due to its still fresh release, and my input concerning it would be invalid.

 

All three of these force a player to be careful at least his/her first time through. There are many ways they each keep a player on-toes and at-the-ready. One screw-up and you're likely dead. Let Artorias land a combo and you may find yourself Hollow once more. Allow the Pursuer to impale you and you'll find yourself that much closer to a sticky situation, assuming you don't die already. Give King Allant the chance and he'll suck out anywhere between a few minutes' to a couple hours' worth of your souls from your very character (in other words, a whole level is stricken from your character itself, which could mean everything or nothing).

 

The reason I'm going into detail about this is because while you may find it industrial, it isn't always bad. The games are heavy in lore, the combat is engaging and/or tricky, and it takes a lot of patience to get through each game. I personally don't and can't find the story behind Maiden Astræa or knowing when to parry the mighty Lord Gwyn boring. So many things to be done and so many pinpoint timings... In the Souls series, numbers aren't everything. And this is where I transition into my major point.

 

(Do note that what is about to be said is not intended as an insult toward Warframe.)  Warframe is a completely different game. Numbers, unfortunately, do mean everything. Damage is instantaneous and unavoidable in most situations. The combat is equally engaging, but on a different level, a different kind. Is your team's health okay? Is the pod in danger? Am I in danger? In the Souls series, you had to stay vigilant. Is there something around that corner? Can I take out that group with such low health? Should I return to this place when I'm stronger?

 

With Warframe and how it is, you can go in autopilot mode while still enjoying yourself...just, allowing your instincts take control while you sit back and relax in harsh or easy terrain. As time passes, DE is getting into the swing of lore implementation. Rhino's backstory is excellent despite its being short. And look at Excalibur -- He's Warframe's first fire. But to finish off what I'm saying, maybe a little industrialization wouldn't be so bad as long as a team dedicated to the game's success like Miyazaki is to the Souls series (HIS masterpiece, HIS baby) is what is driving the game. What I'm getting at is, we as a community need Digital Extremes to show that kind of passion for Warframe. We need Digital Extremes to show us that they truly care. Demon's Souls, Dark Souls...they'll hold up against the test of time for many years to come because of Miyazaki's passion for his creation. Where will Warframe stand at this rate? It worries me. 

[Earz]

Disclaimer: Personal observations and opinions. I doubt anyone shares my mindset. No, I'm not a White Knight. I'm Batman. Insert bundled polymer in PM.

 

So people like to spew negativity towards developers. Nothing new. Seems like a normal practice across any game, unfortunately. Personally, it ain't my thing.

 

So, in an attempt to avoid commenting towards these said people who spew (what I believe to be, for the most part) blasphemy towards DE, I will instead share my personal views on this game and it's development.

 

I'm actually upset at myself for not discovering this game earlier. The very first day I played this game, I uttered the words, "Where has this game been all my life?" I fell in love with this game on Day One. Granted, it was closed beta at the time, but I saw so much potential and awesomeness that could only be explored in my imagination. Two years later, I am still as hyped about this game as I was two years ago. Do I get burnt out? Yeah, from time to time, but I always come back and hop on every now and then. Not once have I said, "Screw this game, I'm done." or anything of the sort. That means no update, no hotfix, nothing has ever bothered me to the extent that some people have expressed. Yes, there are some things I don't necessarily like or agree with, but I adapt to it, mostly being petty issues. In the end, that's my philosophy when it comes to gaming; Adapt to the game. Therefore, I'm pretty much disqualified from making constructive criticism towards additions/subtractions in a game, nonetheless its developers, because of my indifference towards them. The community, however, I am not disqualified to comment on.

 

Overall, DE has my gratitude and appreciation. I love this game and I love DE for making this game. I know you guys do care, despite all the naysayers because who would want to dedicate their time on something they don't care about? No one.

 

DE, you have my vote of confidence. Can't say the same about the (majority) community though, unfortunately.

 

P.S: God damn this was difficult without going on a 10 page soliloquy on the community. Too many self edits.

Edited March 29, 2015 by [DE]Danielle
Keeping it nice

[MichaelSD]

they said they'll be revisiting frames: https://youtu.be/NG6SnSQwH9A?t=6m10s

 

 

SOSO, same old, same old. There are saying for the last 6 updates.....

[Karam3lpi]

Do you think DE lost money because of these changes? I would venture to guess, that they made quite a bit of money inspite of these changes..and thus reinforces there business model. That is how we the community say we dont like there changes...dont buy prime accesss, dont buy plat...or for some one of people out there, just dont play...OR...live with the changes and move on, and realize that this is not the end. and it a lot more changes will be coming...

[MichaelSD]

Do you think DE lost money because of these changes? I would venture to guess, that they made quite a bit of money inspite of these changes..and thus reinforces there business model. That is how we the community say we dont like there changes...dont buy prime accesss, dont buy plat...or for some one of people out there, just dont play...OR...live with the changes and move on, and realize that this is not the end. and it a lot more changes will be coming...

 

I do exactly that, I only login for my extractors. Also I will reach MR19, so there is not much to do for me.

Edited March 28, 2015 by ---Excalibur---

[ThePresident777]

My previous post had nothing to do with lore.  That post was about game mechanics and how DE attracted us to Warframe with fast, powerful, exciting, game mechanics we like, but is now slowly switching the game mechanics to the same boring sludge found in so many other games we passed up for Warframe.  We passed up those games for Warframe because Warframe wasn't as sluggish and puny and had potential to be much more exciting than the typical sluggish video game.  That potential fades with each update.  Warframe is taking on the quality of every other boring game we discarded.

 

Game mechanics: the amount of time it takes to kill an enemy, how many one can kill in an instant, how often that can be done, how fast and far one can traverse terrain, how fast one can switch weapons/slide/sprint/vault/reload/etc.  We're talking about action and the sense of urgency in the game expressed by the Tenno, the supposed Space Ninjas, who lumber around like any character in any game, are constantly winded, and stand around doing nothing after hacking a console.  Which, in addition to being boring, looks ridiculous.  Sports, and movies (with real actors, let alone CGI) have more exciting movement than Warframe, let alone Mass Effect 3, etc.

 

Space Ninja is supposed to mean something and I doubt it's supposed to mean sluggish.  The following is supposed to mean something and I doubt it means puny, Mass Effect 3, Dark Souls, Gears of War, etc.:

 

Warframe: Developer Q&A , Answer to Question 4:

The core is the 4 guys against a massive army.  And, generally speaking, they are devastating. The core is not something like in Gears of War where the one on one is something a bit more balanced.  One Space Ninja against a whole ship of Grineer is the idea.  But, that needs to be balanced by boss battles, and by like desperate scenarios.  But, generally speaking, the whole idea of it, even an old ninja (right?) is that the untrained militia get devastated by a single one.

 

There is also an early PAX video of DE_Steve saying Warframe's movements are supposed to be fluid, yet, the animation system is full of clunk in it's control logic to this day and more was added via auto-vaulting.  Tenno will auto-vault on invisible objects they can easily bunny hop over.  Vaulting has become in Warframe what sticky cover was in Mass Effect 3, i.e. worthless clunk that makes no sense and gets Tenno auto-killed.  In addition, it's Homer's Drinking Bird, it's auto-pilot.  If a combat game. A Space Ninja, game is going ot have auto-pilots in it's movement mechanism, the auto-pilots should be awake.  The enemy bunny hop all over the place.  Earth maps are a good place to see this.  Yet, the Tenno get stuck auto-vaulting a curb.

 

It's pretty obvious that DE is dragging Warframe down into sluggishness and boredom.  Yesterday's Devstream confirms it.  The absence of DE_Steve and [DE]Rebecca shows who within DE is dragging Warframe into the primordial clone pit of sluggish games and away from what was advertised to us 2 years ago, and what we've been given a taste of.
 

Boring sludge pit was not what DE advertised 2 years ago when we bought Founder's Packages.  A look at the early Warframe videos on youtube will show this. 

 

If LOS was Radial Javelin's original intent and Radial Javelin's first implementation was a work around for lack of LOS, then why was it changed to non-LOS + unlimited targets, like other abilities?  What's so special about LOS?  Why bother with it in abilities to begin with?  Why do some abilities have LOS and some don't?  What happens when Radial Javelin is used in a wide area full of enemies?  More nerfs on top of LOS?  Target limits in addition to LOS?  Why is tiny map Draco the standard by which abilities, by which Radial Javelin, are judged all of a sudden?  DE makes big maps, gives abilities 20 meter radii plus range mods, we accept this, then DE switches focus to tiny Draco.  That comes across as a bait and switch.  DE advertises and makes stuff we like then takes it away while giving us unbelievable statements in return.  Calling it "balance" or "change" doesn't do anything to refund the loss.

 

And why intimate in yesterday's Devstream that other abilities could get the LOS treatment?  LOS is not implied in any of the abilities.  LOS in Warframe is a figment of imagination.  This shows that DE is just making stuff up as it goes along doing whatever it feels like doing to drag the game down into sludgeville like so many other games.

 

That's what Piranha Games did to Mech Warrior Online's Founders.  It told them they would get the game mechanics they wanted, to sell them founder's packages, then never lived up to their claims, instead making the game into something else.

 

Even coptoring is on the chopping block, and Significant Stamina is back even though we rejected it over a year ago.  Apparently, there is some feeling that coptoring can go too far, too fast.  Think about that for a second, fast movement feels bad, so it'll get called "unbalanced".  "Balance" is an excuse to cover up the real motivation behind all these nerfs.  Some people don't want a game where the game mechnics have a sense of urgency, excitement, fast, fluid, Space Ninja, 4 Tenno Devastate Massive Enemy Army, and they'll cover that up with excuses while pushing for a sluggish Warframe that was never advertised.

 

All the fun, excitement, urgency, speed, fluidity in the game is for expediency's sake while DE figures out some convoluted boring mechanism to replace it with.  Fun is a place holder to be ripped out and replaced with clunk and unbelievable statements.  That's what we spent our money on, that's the fun we purchased, place holder mechanics. 

 

EDIT:  Let's not forget that on release, Nova was supposed to be the standard by which to judge other Warframes.  That turned out to be false as Nova was nerfed and Warframes with weaker nukes were subsequently released.  DE's communications are unreliable.  What they say and what happens often do not match.

Edited March 28, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Kokarii]

OP +1

 

I really had to sign in to comment here and definitely show my support. This hit home with me. OP, you get all the cookies.

[Xikiri]

My previous post had nothing to do with lore.  That post was about game mechanics and how DE attracted us to Warframe with fast, powerful, exciting, game mechanics we like, but is now slowly switching the game mechanics to the same boring sludge found in so many other games we passed up for Warframe.  We passed up those games for Warframe because Warframe wasn't as sluggish and puny and had potential to be much more exciting than the typical sluggish video game.  That potential fades with each update.  Warframe is taking on the quality of every other boring game we discarded.

Ahhh...I didn't know you were talking just about mechanics. Yeah, I can see why a person would feel that way. Disregard.

[ExPotato]

+6546543241687 if I could, OP

[Agua]

Ever since the kubrow update everything has been downward. I personally blame this on PWE, some people say it is not like that, but those **** do the same thing on every game they buy. They want to milk the cow quickly and they dont give a *****  about the playerbase.

 

 

Did they forget about it? Did they think we had forgotten about it? I don't like to say DE is taking us for fools but that note Megan made in the latest patch notes is making a very rude and insulting assumption about the community.

 

I really get upset about this. If we ever needed a proof that they don't care, her post was it.

 

"Hey remember we said we make a mistake, well actually we didnt. You just imagined it, yes even the post of our apollogies, which you can still read on forum, it is more likely to be your imagination. This is how everything is supposed to be and if you don't like it, then go **** yourself. We consider you as a money cow, so be a good cow and just give us money"

[Xikiri]

Ever since the kubrow update everything has been downward. I personally blame this on PWE, some people say it is not like that, but those **** do the same thing on every game they buy. They want to milk the cow quickly and they dont give a *****  about the playerbase.

 

(quote)

 

I really get upset about this. If we ever needed a proof that they don't care, her post was it.

 

"Hey remember we said we make a mistake, well actually we didnt. You just imagined it, yes even the post of our apollogies, which you can still read on forum, it is more likely to be your imagination. This is how everything is supposed to be and if you don't like it, then go **** yourself. We consider you as a money cow, so be a good cow and just give us money"

Please, do be careful with what you say and how you say it. I'd much prefer this thread not be locked due to irate people, even if I happen to agree with them.

 

Furthermore, I daresay Perfect World and Perfect World Entertainment are not the cause of this. Allow me to explain. The more people talk, the more people see/hear/listen. Despite this, there's always an abundance of talking and little listening. The more unsatisfied customers for a business, the more reasons why they're unhappy are brought to light. From what I understand, Digital Extremes has a habit of doing this bait-and-switch technique with the community. Whether they're aware of it or not, well...that's their business. Anyway, this habit has been around long before PW's/PWE's presence. Perfect World and Perfect World Entertainment are not the cause of this. Please try to understand, and please stop trying to shift the blame of an issue that has existed long before others' involvement. Would I much like for it to be their fault? Yes. Because then, a lawyer could perhaps find a loophole and we could have our (the devs' and the community's) game back...but that's not the case.

Lastly, please refrain from being so...colorful, as per your closing paragraph... In accordance with and addition to my opening sentence, the thread should remain as feedback. If my topic were to be locked due to how I worded something, that's different. That's my fault. But if someone else gets this inadvertently shoved under the rug, it would be little more than an inconvenience and we would have an even smaller chance of seeing results. 

 

EDIT: Punctuation

Edited March 29, 2015 by OutrightMakoto

[fatpig84]

I decide to instead voting for a change of RB and RJ back to the original state, I now want ALL frames to be affected by LOS.

 

Like Ash, like Loki, like Nyx and oh bring back trinity EV LOS.

If you want LOS, don't put it on one frame, put it on ALL frames.

[Flowen231]

Ever since the kubrow update everything has been downward. I personally blame this on PWE, some people say it is not like that, but those **** do the same thing on every game they buy. They want to milk the cow quickly and they dont give a *****  about the playerbase.

 

 

 

I really get upset about this. If we ever needed a proof that they don't care, her post was it.

 

"Hey remember we said we make a mistake, well actually we didnt. You just imagined it, yes even the post of our apollogies, which you can still read on forum, it is more likely to be your imagination. This is how everything is supposed to be and if you don't like it, then go **** yourself. We consider you as a money cow, so be a good cow and just give us money"

I feel you man, I made 4 topics and sent a PM to Rebecca about a major issue within the game and didn't get so much as an "OK" reply back for all of it. Nothing screams "I don't care, deal with it" like an entire staff team where not a single soul can acknowledge something that's been persisted to a large degree. And I know what I reported isn't special, there have been other problems that received more attention by the community that were bypassed by DE in the same manner.

 

snipples

 

 This guy speaks the truth. PW/PWE isn't the reason why warframe is what it is, it all falls on DE.

 

And I disagree about not using remarks like his last paragraph, he pretty much told it like it is. And I doubt that the topic would be locked because of such remarks considering that; 1) It's feedback, it lets them know what he thinks of them, and it's on topic considering what the thread is about. And 2) DE makes similar remarks themselves, not too long ago in a hotfix the red text read something like "Well at least you still have E-Gate... oh wait we fixed that". I mean, I get where you're coming from, and there is alot of overreaction on the forums with deleting and locking and whatnot, but I doubt the staff is hypocritical enough to lock a topic for that reason lol.... right?

[izzatuw]

+1 OP, I usually try to defend DE and try giving out the good that comes out but their really isn't any this time. They seem to be severing their relationship with the community more and more.

P.s can anybody link the controversy with Megan?