Pvp: Oneshots Don't Belong Competitive Pvp

[Blatantfool]

I absolutely agree.

 

 In my opinion no weapon should be a one shot kill outside of a special circumstance (Like a headshot or some kind of combo effect) during PvP.

 

 At most Bows and Snipers and similar weaponry should only hit hard enough to leave a player somewhere between ten and twenty percent their total health at full charge, requiring a headshot to kill someone outright. In other words, an incredible amount of potential damage but not enough to rob a player of the ability to react or stand a chance to win out.

 

  You can argue all day about limited ammo, but ammo boxes aren't hard to reach in maps. You can argue about limited range, but none of the maps are long range enough for your argument to work out.

 

 In the long run all the One-shot kill does is allow you to frantically spam shots hoping to connect regardless of the position of your enemy. Even if your opponent is blocking with melee they'll have to stop defending themselves long enough to actually swing, more then enough time to connect with a one-hit-wonder at point blank. It's like having training wheels in gun form. The fact that your weapon only has to hit once means there is no point of worrying about using it properly or aiming particularly well. Hitting someone's foot is as good as hitting their forehead. It makes no difference. So just plug away and pray.

 

 

Melee weapons are no better. Slide attacks shouldn't one shot. Not ever. There should always be some sort of hope that a player can fight his way out of a situation where he is ambushed. That sort of thing is one part of how skilled players find moments in which they can separate themselves and show they are the king of the conclaves.

 

 

 There is pretty much 0 chance anyone could make me budge on this opinion. No single weapon deserves to have kill times that low compares to the rest of the arsenal. No weapon. Players who are reliant on this sort of thing just have to cope and get better after it inevitably gets nerfed.

[BlizzardMamba]

I have recently seen bows used as shotguns. One fully loaded shot ready and unloaded straight to your face while passing by... 

[RoboDoge]

Source?

Parkour 2.0.

[Feyangol]

Parkour 2.0.

In other words: no source.

[RoboDoge]

In other words: no source.

Check the TennoLive and what devs said, coptering will be removed.

[Feyangol]

Check the TennoLive and what devs said, coptering will be removed.

I watched the last 3 dev streams and read everything new on the warframe side, noone said it.

[RoboDoge]

I watched the last 3 dev streams and read everything new on the warframe side, noone said it.

Then you missed whole forum rage and butthurt also, because Parkour 2.0 will remove coptering.

[BlizzardMamba]

I cannot find it, but I will believe you :) 

Words cannot express how happy I am that this spawn of min/maxing will be killed soon, altough I use it myself. 

[Blatantfool]

Then you missed whole forum rage and butthurt also, because Parkour 2.0 will remove coptering.

 

 I don't know where you are getting this either. I watched TennoLive too and don't recall it. I'm seriously doubting it'll ever be removed entirely. Though I would definitely bet after Parkour 2.0 it wont work how it does now.

 

 Regardless, it's a long ways out Robo. You should know better then to treat anything we haven't been explicitly told is set in stone as fact.

[Burnthesteak87]

Less offtopic, more ontopic please, you can discuss privately by Private Messages.

Thanks

Edited March 21, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[rockscl]

 

 

 

 

you have just made one of those topics that no one wants to actually debate because you were simply too solid, no wonder everyone ends talking about other thing, saying that bows require skill is like saying everything else doesnt, such argument doesnt weight against this risk reward point of view, interesting analysis btw

 

about the effect of bullets, im starting to think they should proc cslow on hit, that would compensate the low damage on auto rifles in front of bows at least

Edited March 21, 2015 by rockscl

[KyrosQF]

I absolutely agree.

 

 In my opinion no weapon should be a one shot kill outside of a special circumstance (Like a headshot or some kind of combo effect) during PvP.

 

 At most Bows and Snipers and similar weaponry should only hit hard enough to leave a player somewhere between ten and twenty percent their total health at full charge, requiring a headshot to kill someone outright. In other words, an incredible amount of potential damage but not enough to rob a player of the ability to react or stand a chance to win out.

 

  You can argue all day about limited ammo, but ammo boxes aren't hard to reach in maps. You can argue about limited range, but none of the maps are long range enough for your argument to work out.

 

 In the long run all the One-shot kill does is allow you to frantically spam shots hoping to connect regardless of the position of your enemy. Even if your opponent is blocking with melee they'll have to stop defending themselves long enough to actually swing, more then enough time to connect with a one-hit-wonder at point blank. It's like having training wheels in gun form. The fact that your weapon only has to hit once means there is no point of worrying about using it properly or aiming particularly well. Hitting someone's foot is as good as hitting their forehead. It makes no difference. So just plug away and pray.

 

 

Melee weapons are no better. Slide attacks shouldn't one shot. Not ever. There should always be some sort of hope that a player can fight his way out of a situation where he is ambushed. That sort of thing is one part of how skilled players find moments in which they can separate themselves and show they are the king of the conclaves.

 

 

 There is pretty much 0 chance anyone could make me budge on this opinion. No single weapon deserves to have kill times that low compares to the rest of the arsenal. No weapon. Players who are reliant on this sort of thing just have to cope and get better after it inevitably gets nerfed.

 

idk, its fine to distinguish what is strong, what is OP and what is weak. But kneejerk reactions are how things like Rhino get nerfed on day 1 when none of what he does is even viable in the way the game is currently being played.

 

Like it or not, the best melee weapon in the game is currently the Paris. Actual melee weapons need a range buff (allow the use of range mods and allow the use of polearms/bo etc). Being killed by coptering is completely avoidable and telegraphed where being killed by a gun/bow in a single shot is not. People really need to let the "meta" evolve and not kneejerk their reactions based off a small amount of their own play experience.

 

The reason there's a lot of melee weapon use is because non-bow gun weapons are so incredibly weak its almost completely not worth using, especially with the mobility we have.

 

At the moment, one shots are necessary to counter the strong mobility we are capable of using. Until mobility and picking up the cephalon are changed...OHKOs are absolutely necessary to progress the game. The ultimates give a small window to avoid and someone has to be lucky or in melee range to kill with bows. Imo automatic and semi-automatic weapons need a buff and the 6 second tracking mods need to also have a built in 30% pvp slow.

Edited March 21, 2015 by KyrosQF

[Burnthesteak87]

No, with the actual high mobility Crowd Controls would be the optimal answer. Istant death musn't be justified at all.

And to be precise, the real problem with mobility is the fact Stamina regenerates too much fast, thus people spam zorencoptering and rush freely.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[KyrosQF]

No, with the actual high mobility Crowd Controls would be the optimal answer. Istant death musn't be justified at all.

And to be precise, the real problem with mobility is the fact Stamina regenerates too much fast, thus people spam zorencoptering and rush freely.

 

Actually if you really want to be precise, coptering can be done with no stamina cost in the same way that regular melee attacks can continue with no stamina cost. To add to this, slowing effects aren't affecting people who copter because spin attack speed is based on the speed of the weapon instead of the speed of the warframe.

[Praxeti]

+1 OP. Found myself in a match earlier with a volt + paris prime against me. His shock could easily one hit me, and if I managed to escape an arrow would end me quicker than my braton vandal could strip away his shields..

Against personal experiences, I would guess that for bow balance something along the lines of just a lower damage modifier for the charge whilst in PVP to lower chances of getting one hit.

[Nxai]

I make no illusion that I've read all the arguments in this thread, but here's a proposal for the main one.

 

Bows oneshotting is counterplayed by having enemy awareness and blocking with melee. It takes an amount of "skill" to hit somebody with a fully charged bow shot, regardless of circumstances you have to at the very least have the ability to charge the shot, not lose it and react well enough to your target to hit the shot without being taken out or forced away before hand. Similarly to not get hit by a bow user it really only takes the basic "skill" of keeping track of who has what and where they are standing in relation to you, and taking defensive action instead of just running at them and hoping they will miss.

[Burnthesteak87]

First of all, if you would like to join a constructive thread you should follow it.

Talking about "skill in using a weapon" is not a good motivation. If you can't use a weapon which oneshots players you won't use it. If you master that weapon you will kill most of the time your target. If you want to win, you'll learn to use it no matter what.
The "skill required"-matter is simply an argument brought up by PVP egokids who want to valorize themselves and feel better than the mass. That's an "ego"-related problem, not reality.
It's important that these kind of things stay out of PVP, because elseway will become mandatory meta, ruining the game.
Example? Were you playing Doom3 PVP in 2005? People used mostly Rocketlauncher and Shotgun to oneshot opponents, no matter what. That became the meta. Meeting and camping at the weapon spawn point, who gets the weapon kills others.
There mustn't be oneshotting weapons.

By what you have written, having a bow pointed toward you actually means you should stop everything you are doing (running away included), get melee and turn your face to your enemy to block arrows, becoming a slow moving helpless target, prone to other enemies attacking you, is this what are you meaning?

That's not counterplay, it's a Death Sentence, it is the only broken way you have to face (not to fight back) an unbalanced feature. Over the fact that sooner or later your stamina will end and Arrows will pass through your parry..

Being targeted by a oneshot weapon isn't PVP.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Nxai]

[snip]

Now let's see where you are wrong.

 

First, I said I haven't read every argument, I read all the needed bits to formulate my argument. I don't need the various bits about he said she said, blah blah. I stated that simply to justify if I missed someone ninja'ing the argument in before me in the last half of the most recent page of text walls. You don't need to act like you're talking down to me because I haven't read 100% of the thread, that shows conceit, which I am 100% sure from your response, you are conceited. 

 

If you can't use a weapon, yes, you will most likely move to a different one that hopefully better suits your abilities. That said, if you can kill using a weapon, then you will as well strive to get better using that weapon. That's not an argument as you seem to be using it for, that's a fact. I use the Strun. Shotguns in this game are ridiculed. So why do I use it? Well my play style is using the Bo's air melee for mobility and a lot of the flip moves to stay mobile, that means I can usually circumvent anyone that isn't insanely accurate and has a high firerate weapon and put damage on them.

 

That said you can't use that as the basis of some sort of "Ego-shaming" to say something is irrelevant and it's just nerds trying to blow themselves up. The ability to use the weapon is most certainly the most relevant thing. It doesn't matter how strong something is if you can't fire it before you get killed or if it's so wildly unreliable you can't use it. They can put the opticor in right now without any balance changes except doubling the charge time and make it full charge dependant I bet nobody would use it at all. It would be guaranteed to kill as it should by it's nature, but it would take so damn long to do so nobody would live long enough unless they were completely off the radar.

 

Why did people use the rocket launcher? It like I'm sure many other rocket launchers in many other pvp games, had a decently wide area of effect, high damage, and had a moderate ability to hit the target. It was reliable. The shotgun similarly to it's function in just about every other game featuring a shotgun, is a short/medium range, high damage, low accuracy weapon that requires you to not get killed before you get close enough to kill and if you managed to do that without being counterplayed by someone expecting the shotgun and moving away you could reliably get the kill for your effort. The ease of doing that is debatable by map design or ways to cheese/stealth/camp or what have you. By virtue of how the paris functions, you should not be getting back up after an arrow with enough force to pierce through a solid chunk of steel rips through your body anywhere. Game over, you aren't functional.

 

as for my tactics I suggested and you misunderstood, I briefly considered just saying those are classified for lulz but this is a game where information travels like oil over water, people will learn and they will learn quickly that right now 90% of players don't think to look up, let alone anywhere except directly in front of themselves. So what I said by having a bow pointed towards you actually means you should react accordingly. It's a small, fast moving projectile with little margin for error, unless the bowman is ready and waiting you have a very good chance to avoid it. If you aren't already holding your melee, which in most cases you probably should be if you are flag running, then you should move away in the most erratic motion possible, probably a slidejump, or a roll, or if you are aiming when you notice it, a back or side flip. If he looks like he's about to shoot at you from head on, and yes you can easily tell that then you most definitely should roll or jump immediately and air melee away in any direction except forward, end all forward momentum and get behind or around something.

 

If you have your melee out and he looks ready to shoot, block and then get away, the worst that can happen is you die from someone else you didn't know was there or from the rest of his team being around you and without an ultimate or a really well placed 1, nobody is going to win Xv1 regularly, and with that notion firmly planted in your head, if you see two dudes attempting to fight you at once, why are you trying to fight run the hell away, you can't win that unless they grouped together and you are spamming gram combos. There is simply no instance at all where you should be standing still, the cephalons even have lines pertaining to this in which I remember standing in a spot that nobody looks at waiting for my flag to come back and it kept yelling at me about why was I not moving.

 

Especially in the case of slow weapons like the paris, if you are moving in any sense of the word it's already harder to hit you even if you aren't aware, there are only four dudes on the enemy team at any point and they can't change loadouts so you should be able to recognize pretty fast if someone has a paris, especially if they happen to be carrying the very large golden "LOOK AT ME I'M STANDING RIGHT HERE" version. Then you should expect to be targeted by that paris and then expect to look out for that person and if you see them remove them as quickly as possible. The excuse that because it one shots it's broken when taking away it's ability to one shot would make it useless is simply wrong. You can't change the way the weapon functions and you can't make the weapon useable otherwise, the most you can do is edit some of it's values so that it's either faster or slower depending, it will never shoot fast enough to warrant not being a one shot weapon, and it can't shoot so slow that you find it acceptable and still be a useable weapon. You don't want to hear arguments you want to argue when really you should be thinking as an intelligent person in combat rather than trying to ridicule others and claim falsely that being looked at is synonymous with being killed. It's not hit scan, when they release the vectis and it insta kills, then we can talk but even then how else can you use it except for that one shot? If we were all running around with just bratons the game wouldn't be fun, it would just be who can pick rhino and shoot the other person in the head more times the quickest

[Burnthesteak87]

Now let's see where you are wrong.

 

First, I said I haven't read every argument, I read all the needed bits to formulate my argument. I don't need the various bits about he said she said, blah blah. I stated that simply to justify if I missed someone ninja'ing the argument in before me in the last half of the most recent page of text walls. You don't need to act like you're talking down to me because I haven't read 100% of the thread, that shows conceit, which I am 100% sure from your response, you are conceited. 

 

 

After reading your post twice.

Sorry I'm not talking down to you neither am I conceited. English isn't my first language and I yet think I'm not expressing like a monkey.

I simply explained the point from another perspective and you overreacted thinking of being talked down. I'm sorry for this, it wasn't my intent.

I'd like to hear valid arguments, not people claiming "I think that bows should oneshot because they need skill" "try dodging or blocking arrows". I yet explained why.These are simply naive claims.

I'm a Shooter experienced person, I understand pretty well the situation, by both a tactical p.o.v. both the influent mechanics in pvp.

I thank you for your hints but I don't see the point in you throwing at me your playstyle, decisions, the logic behind and all those verbose claims.

It just makes things more complicated than they are.

What I'm asking is why you think Oneshots should be in game and what's the logic after it? Do you really trust it, even after reading other's opinions?

If you're interested into helping the community, then express, elseway, I'm really not interested into personal ego-fights.

PS: This isn't a valid answer.

By virtue of how the paris functions, you should not be getting back up after an arrow with enough force to pierce through a solid chunk of steel rips through your body anywhere. Game over, you aren't functional.

 

PPS: 

First of all, if you would like to join a constructive thread you should follow it.

This phrase was to discourage people passing by to drop naive statements or discussions about points yet discussed.

...With a scarce success, as I see.

 

Edited March 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[izzatuw]

Are we talking about abilities too? I played with an Excal that one shots me with Slash Dash what?

[Intalus]

I think the Paris MK-1 charges up a bit too fast for the amount of damage it deals.  I think the damage can be tuned down a bit, but headshots should still do somewhere from 80-95% of a player's maximum effective HP.  If you're able to land headshots on opponents consistently, then you should be rewarded for doing so.

 

Head shots are so unbelievably rare because of coptering. Head shots aren't skill, they are luck (unless your opponent is moving really slow for some reason).

 

Just because you have a belief does not mean it's true.  

 

Headshots performed with bows are 100% dependent on the player's skill level.  The arrows are not hitscan and their trajectory has a slight arc, meaning you can't just click on someone's head and expect to get a kill... you have to predict where your opponent is moving and lead the arrow to get a chance at hitting them.   If you're on the receiving end of this consistently, it might be because your movement is terrible.  I don't know why you're so fixated on headshots when there's other offenders that are significantly worse in terms of effectiveness vs player input/effort/skill required.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Intalus

[izzatuw]

Although bows have arcs I don't believe the arcs are significant enough to affect someone's aim considering how close we usually fight.

[Burnthesteak87]

I think the Paris MK-1 charges up a bit too fast for the amount of damage it deals.  I think the damage can be tuned down a bit, but headshots should still do somewhere from 80-95% of a player's maximum effective HP.  If you're able to land headshots on opponents consistently, then you should be rewarded for doing so.

 

 

Just because you have a belief does not mean it's true.  

 

Headshots performed with bows are 100% dependent on the player's skill level.  The arrows are not hitscan and their trajectory has a slight arc, meaning you can't just click on someone's head and expect to get a kill... you have to predict where your opponent is moving and lead the arrow to get a chance at hitting them.   If you're on the receiving end of this consistently, it might be because your movement is terrible.  I don't know why you're so fixated on headshots when there's other offenders that are significantly worse In terms of effectiveness vs player input/effort/skill required.

Its a matter of generic Oneshots, not headshots.

[Intalus]

Although bows have arcs I don't believe the arcs are significant enough to affect someone's aim considering how close we usually fight.

It affects your aim enough where you can't simply let go of the charge over someone's head if they're within 10m or so.  You have to predict what direction your opponent is moving and compensate for that since the initial trajectory of the arrow starts from your Warframe and not the center of the screen/parallel with the aiming reticle.   

Edited March 22, 2015 by Intalus

[Burnthesteak87]

Are we talking about abilities too? I played with an Excal that one shots me with Slash Dash what?

Read the first post.