Pvp May Need Ability Cooldowns. (Among Other Changes)

[Rallinious]

So after playing the new PvP for awhile and hitting Rank 2 (on my way to 3) I have my thoughts to share. But I'll touch base with the other parts first (if you here just to discuss the title skip to point 4):

 

1) needs to be said again, we need dedicated servers. The host has a great advantage right now due to it, mostly with everyone else seemingly firing blanks/teleporting around and them sniping you with shotguns. (bit of worse case but it has happened to me a couple times.)

 

2) Coptering is big issue right now too, honestly I think it's still needed because melee users need it as a gap closer or to punish bad positioning. But I think it needs an internal cooldown and for the flag carrier to be unable to copter. Honestly I think 1-2 should be the max you can copter before about a 5~ second wait time before you can again.

 

3) Guns Vs. Melee: Honestly, it's hard for me to judge the balance between these two right now due to the aforementioned P2P system. However right now I feel bows/shotguns are in an ok place, automatics seem a touch on the weak side as do most secondaries (haven't tested the sicarus so cant say much about it) and with melee if/when you change coptering I think it will be in a much better place, though that said I think a few need looked at (kogake specifically for its slide attack knockdown)

 

4) Now we get to the main point of this thread. It is far to easy even in PvP  to spam any damage ability and win. Should your team be punished for not controlling energy spawns? Absolutely, however currently it's far to easy just to copter around the map until you hit 100 energy (especially as the flag carrier) and just hit your 4 in a bad spot or in the enemy base and nuke them all (looking at you Volt).

 

I should know too because I've been on both ends of it. I'd share a screen cap if I thought to take it at the time, but if I can get 40~ kills and only 2 deaths, with just my 4th skill in a single match, something is wrong.

 

But what can be done about it? I don't think nerfing the power of skills save maybe a few out-standing ones is the best way to approach this, rather giving skills cool downs (adjusting them as needed), maybe adjusting energy spawns and giving abilities interesting counterplay, might help a lot more, let me elaborate on each warframe:

 

Excalibur:

 

Slash Dash: Should definitely have a longer period where if you miss, you get out of the animation slower, the speed being the same it is now if you hit. This means if you hit your rewarded by flipping a fight in your favor, if you miss your opponent can punish you for it as your animation locked. Cooldown ~6 seconds

 

Radial Blind: I think this is in an ok place, the range might be a touch to short and the animation at the end of the cast to slow for really to capitalize on it. To fix this I think it needs a longer windup, so an aware opponent can try to move out of its range (or dive into cover), but a really short wind-down so if you do blind someone you can actually do something with it. (it also couldn't hurt to make the blind a second or two longer.) Cooldown ~10 Seconds

 

Super Jump: Seems ok, not much else to say that hasn't already been said. Cooldown ~2 Seconds

 

Radial Javelin: Think it's fine as is for the most part, good windup with a long winddown. an opponent can punish poor use of the skill pretty easily. Cooldown ~100 Seconds

 

 

Rhino:

 

Rhino Charge: It shouldn't one-hit, plain and simple. Like Dash Slash it should deal enough damage to turn a fight in your favor or finish a wounded opponent, but if you miss it needs to be punishable just like it's brother. Cooldown ~6 Seconds

 

Iron Skin: This ones kinda hard to judge, mostly due to the P2P lag and Coptering it can be a pain to stripe it off without using an 4th to nuke the Rhino player. My best solution would be to make Rhino slower and/or unable to copter while it us up, at that same token is needs to be a toggle to cancel it and for the animation taking it off and on to have more windup. meaning, you can pop it just before a gun fight but if you get caught with it down your in trouble. Free to Toggle off, Cooldown after Striped ~15 Seconds or Toggled off (without augment)  ~8 Seconds

 

Roar: Seems fine as is, might be to short. Cooldown ~8 Seconds

 

Stomp: in all honesty I think Stomp should either be a nuke, or a very Hard CC, not both. That said it's far to easy to negate the slow by coptering or just butt scooting to safety, making it kind of pointless. I think it should stop you from doing any other action other then slowly moving or shooting back (which should be unaffected), meaning a smart rhino will use the slow to out position you while you still have a chance to kill him if he positions wrong. Cooldown if just CC ~60 Seconds, if it stays a Soft Nuke + CC ~80 Seconds

 

Volt:

 

Shock: I think it's in an ok place damage wise, just far to easy to spam. Cooldown ~6 Seconds if hit, ~8 Seconds if missed

 

Speed: Seems short but the speed boost works well as is. Cooldown ~10 Seconds

 

Electric Shield: Again like most buff and buff like skills, seems short but works fine. Cooldown ~10 Seconds

 

Overload: This is the only skill other then his 1 I take issue with, the main problem is again, far to easy to spam it. I thick Volt needs to be animation locked while the "pulse" is still expanding and for it to expand slower, but not by much. Cooldown ~100 Seconds

 

Unfortunately I haven't really play tested and played against Mag or Chroma enough to really judge them, and I haven't played as Frost enough though I have played against him plenty. But I'll update the OP with them as I get to them.

 

tl;dr: Energy spawns need looked at, as do coptering and many other things. But abilities are far to easy to spam and need cooldowns and counterplay to not only add a level of skill on both sides, but to make fights far more engaging and interesting them just pressing your 4th and/or your 1st skill every time you gather tons of energy and getting free kills.

 

feel free to add any feedback, I'd great appreciate it as most of my numbers right now are spit-balling at best and would need extensive play testing to adjust and make work.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Rallinious

[Rakshal]

Agreed.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Finally! someone who understands the biggest problem in PvP +1

Edited March 22, 2015 by DrOP_

[Feyangol]

No, abilities and weapons need an overhaul and not cooldowns.

You depend on abilities to kill someone. It lasts too long if you try to kill someone by using gunfire and I don't want to roflcopter someone to death. You are able to run away before your opponent is able to do enough dmg to kill you ...

 

Cooldowns wouldn't make anything better, they would just slow down the gameplay and we would have a hide and seek pvp, where everyone waits for his cooldowns. We have already a similar situation now: noone is going to fight another player without at least 25 energy. If you don't have energy/your cooldowns up, you will run until you have them.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Feyangol

[Rallinious]

You depend on abilities to kill someone. ...

 

 

This should Never be the case except in the most dire of situations and even then, and only if you outplay your opponent. Abilities should never kill someone on their own (from full HP), at best they should turn a gunfight/meleefight in your favor, but never single handedly win it save a really well used 4th.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Rallinious

[Feyangol]

This should Never be the case except in the most dire of situations and even then, and only if you outplay your opponent. Abilities should never kill someone on their own, at best they should turn a gunfight/meleefight in your favor, but never single handedly win it save a really well used 4th.

I have exactly the same opinion, that's why I say that weapons and abilities need an overhaul and not cooldowns.

I just say that your proposed solution wouldn't solve any problem.

[fatpig84]

Conclave PVP seems okay at the moment.

Because no mods lawl.

[Rallinious]

I have exactly the same opinion, that's why I say that weapons and abilities need an overhaul and not cooldowns.

I just say that your proposed solution wouldn't solve any problem.

 

I think the main issue lies with either you give abilities cooldowns or you end up nerfing their effectiveness to the point that spamming them is pointless. Like if Volts Shock did only 50 points of damage, why use it over a gun?

 

I think once guns get touched up, Energy/Coptering gets looked at and the biggest overhead of all, the hosting problem gets looked at, it'll be much easier to judge, but I think abilities need a reason to be used, the raw damage ones though need to be engagement changers rather then press and win, without any other kind of investment (which we agree on).

Edited March 22, 2015 by Rallinious

[Tails-san]

The cooldowns you suggest are probably too long, given the pace of the gameplay. I often encounter enemies more frequently than some of your suggested cooldowns for non-4th abilities, and the 4th ability cooldowns can be a very significant portion of an entire match. Such long cooldowns could make power use far too reliant on the cooldowns than energy as well.

 

Coptering definitely needs to be tweaked though, especially for the flag carrier, and maybe for Rhino and Frost as well, since they can take more punishment than every other frame, but are slower. Coptering lets you negate that lack of speed, making speed much less significant in balance. This would especially skew things once faster, squishier frames get in, like Nova, Mirage, and Loki. (also, more melee weapons usable should be a top priority, I personally am limited to Fang Prime in pvp, and I know people who literally have none of them. The Mk-1s can't even be used, unlike the other weapon categories. We have a LOT of melee weapons, so the pvp selection should account for that, it doesn't seem like it has.)

[Kainosh]

This way Volt's ult wil be a death trap for Volt himself.

 

I suggest next:

 

Volts ult create expanding DOT field.   That field deals about 40 damage per second and shortly stun (for 0.2 sec) with every tick (so you still able to escape but not that easy).  Field only exist while expanding. When max range reached it disappear.

[Aggh]

Less energy on the map would be a better solution imo.

[rockscl]

again energy and spamming shows his hard face, i think these cool downs are a good idea, but id rather prefer having less pickups with longer respawn timers, having the right to spam number 1 skills is too easy to acquire currently