One Simple Augment To Unquestionably Make Ember Endgame Viable

[Jinryusai]

Was her fire killing anything?

 

Any endgame is about preparation and coordination. You're not going to go into a scenario against armored enemies without some way to deal with it either through corrosive projections or corrosive status procs, regardless of what damage type you want to focus on.  When I run with teams that do not have Corrosive Projections. I utilize a Corrosive Amprex to shred the armor of a room. Aside from armored foes Heat itself does not suffer damage reductions against any base enemy type except for Proto Shields which are fairly rare. On top of that Heat's damage over time aspect adds further bonus damage to all types, as well as preventing native shield restoration. In most cases Slash provides a stronger damage over time. But when coordinating with an Ember Heat is the way to go simply on the basis of ~400% extra damage to both Heat attacks and the burns.

 

Ember's primary crowd control is the Accelerant cast. The World on Fire and other heat procs provide breathing room between Accelerants and vice versa. A well played Ember will reduce the incoming damage pressure of the enemies by 90 to 99%. I used a max range Accelerant to get my Rift Sigil. And I'm often the one going for the far capsules in the last 5 minutes of an hour long survival, using Accelerant and World on Fire together to maintain a protective area around me.

 

If you can't utilize Ember past level 30s perhaps you need better mods. If you don't have access to endgame equipment then naturally your endgame perfomance will be lackluster. On the other hand...

 

I started a new account to level with and play Ember only. These are the results of a 35 minute Apollodorus where armored enemies did go past level 30. With no Intensify, no Streamline, and not even a fully ranked World on Fire I still put forward a strong performance largely on the basis of World on Fire's base power and control. So clearly Ember would be capable of going further with better equipment.

 

http://i.imgur.com/IjPIa4H.jpg?1

[Ryjeon]

Was her fire killing anything?

 

Yes, up to the very end. Any of my kills that aren't a melee kill are an ability kill. As it got later the damage over time part became more important. And when it was safe I would also melee the bombards while they were on fire, or Fireball their face if I felt I could spare the energy. If they were densely packed then I also used Accelerant first.  I also jumpkick to knock them down if a heavy was coming out of the burn panic. The point is to play smart and use your assets.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Ryjeon

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

Is this a real thread?  This would be laughably overpowered.  People who don't understand game mechanics really shouldn't give feedback.  

 

Edit: Read the first page of posts; was a horrifying read, minus Ryjeon's post.  The "buff everything" circlejerk is strong.  

If you have actual constructive criticism or suggestions, I would like to hear them. I am aware that this could become overpowered. That's why I'm okay with the initial effect of each instance of accelerant being scaled down. 

[AlphaHorseman]

Is this a real thread?  This would be laughably overpowered.  People who don't understand game mechanics really shouldn't give feedback.  

 

Edit: Read the first page of posts; was a horrifying read, minus Ryjeon's post.  The "buff everything" circlejerk is strong.  

People who resort to insulting others isn't feedback for the game, so please, take your insults else where. They are not wanted between us players who are actually being constructive in our responses.

 

She isn't in a great spot, she's in an alright spot. The OP and other suggestions within this thread would help to boost her up, that's all that we suggested.

[RealPandemonium]

People who resort to insulting others isn't feedback for the game, so please, take your insults else where. They are not wanted between us players who are actually being constructive in our responses.

 

She isn't in a great spot, she's in an alright spot. The OP and other suggestions within this thread would help to boost her up, that's all that we suggested.

Yeah because we need 5000% damage multipliers to kill enemies.  Seriously?  That a suggestion like this isn't met with a double-take, but instead is accepted and supported is ludicrous.  

[Jinryusai]

^So what is your Ember build? Do share :)

[AlphaHorseman]

Yeah because we need 5000% damage multipliers to kill enemies.  Seriously?  That a suggestion like this isn't met with a double-take, but instead is accepted and supported is ludicrous.  

We weren't asking for that. We are trying to find ways to make Ember more scale able into content. Accelerant being the only power that has scale ability or actually adds scale ability to her other powers, it was the first thing we thought to look at when the OP made their suggestion.

 

Have you not tried Banshee in conjunction with Nova and/or Rhino? Their synergy is wonderfully put when you compound their damage amplifiers. That isn't a bad thing, it's just their synergy. We aren't looking for the need of other frames to help Ember scale, but trying to find a solution to allow her to scale better than how she does now (as she doesn't really scale that well for higher tier content (i.e. raids)).

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

We weren't asking for that. We are trying to find ways to make Ember more scale able into content. Accelerant being the only power that has scale ability or actually adds scale ability to her other powers, it was the first thing we thought to look at when the OP made their suggestion.

 

Have you not tried Banshee in conjunction with Nova and/or Rhino? Their synergy is wonderfully put when you compound their damage amplifiers. That isn't a bad thing, it's just their synergy. We aren't looking for the need of other frames to help Ember scale, but trying to find a solution to allow her to scale better than how she does now (as she doesn't really scale that well for higher tier content (i.e. raids)).

^^ This is exactly what I want for ember. Not something overpowered, but something that can hold her own without question, and can still synergize well with a team 

[Siekier]

Ember had recently been buffed. The effectiveness of said buff is still being debated. She can be taken into "endgame", but only by extremely skilled players. To make her more viable for more players, I propose giving Accelerant the Resonance treatment. Make an augment that creates new, stackable instances of Accelerant. Casting Accelerant, and then killing an affected enemy with fire damage will cause that enemy to explode and spread more Accelerant. By making this stack low resonance, Ember will be able to crank out her damage much more effectively into endgame. Now I'd  like to hear what you guys have to think 

 

Edit: also creating more instances of Accelerant will create more stuns, thus improving is usefulness even more 

Sounds good.

 

I was thinking of other option though, maybe make Accelerant blind affected enemies for the duration?

I think it would be quite useful CC.

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

Sounds good.

 

I was thinking of other option though, maybe make Accelerant blind affected enemies for the duration?

I think it would be quite useful CC.

That does sound fun. More utility is always nice 

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Any endgame is about preparation and coordination. You're not going to go into a scenario against armored enemies without some way to deal with it either through corrosive projections or corrosive status procs, regardless of what damage type you want to focus on.  When I run with teams that do not have Corrosive Projections. I utilize a Corrosive Amprex to shred the armor of a room. Aside from armored foes Heat itself does not suffer damage reductions against any base enemy type except for Proto Shields which are fairly rare. On top of that Heat's damage over time aspect adds further bonus damage to all types, as well as preventing native shield restoration. In most cases Slash provides a stronger damage over time. But when coordinating with an Ember Heat is the way to go simply on the basis of ~400% extra damage to both Heat attacks and the burns.

 

Ember's primary crowd control is the Accelerant cast. The World on Fire and other heat procs provide breathing room between Accelerants and vice versa. A well played Ember will reduce the incoming damage pressure of the enemies by 90 to 99%. I used a max range Accelerant to get my Rift Sigil. And I'm often the one going for the far capsules in the last 5 minutes of an hour long survival, using Accelerant and World on Fire together to maintain a protective area around me.

 

If you can't utilize Ember past level 30s perhaps you need better mods. If you don't have access to endgame equipment then naturally your endgame perfomance will be lackluster. On the other hand...

 

I started a new account to level with and play Ember only. These are the results of a 35 minute Apollodorus where armored enemies did go past level 30. With no Intensify, no Streamline, and not even a fully ranked World on Fire I still put forward a strong performance largely on the basis of World on Fire's base power and control. So clearly Ember would be capable of going further with better equipment.

 

http://i.imgur.com/IjPIa4H.jpg?1

 

I think people mistake viability for appeal. People have a hard time with Ember because the approach that works best with Ember doesn't suit them. So they write her off as weak and praise the frames that more appeal to their playstyle and conceptual approach. But just because you find a frame unenjoyable or arcane doesn't mean it lacks strength or a role in the game. Maybe it's just not for you.

 

"With sheer skill and ludicrous preparation, I can make this frame passable" isn't a huge selling point to ember, friend. I mean, if you were able to get the rift sigil with ember, you're clearly an amazing player. I mean, using accelerant as CC? What? While yes it does provide some CC, it falters heavily compared to better CC powers. Relying on that for your CC seems... Well, it's cool that it works for you, but it must have required the timing of the gods. Expecting players to have that kind of skill in general, or balancing around players being god tier is probably not the best idea.

 

Armor laughs off every damage type except its 75% weakness.  Armor scaling in general is a bandaid against our power, which in turn requires bandaids against armor, like Corrosive Projection.  Ember's damage is nonetheless outclassed only by Miasma spam.  Numerous players have demonstrated that Ember can hold her own against 35+ Grineer and Void missions.  Ember being bad is a myth propagated by people who dismissed her after the removal of Overheat and people who slot Narrow Minded or don't use a max efficiency build and then wonder why they aren't auto-winning.  Also, people who think that Miasma is a good paradigm for ability design.  As a final note, Heat damage is actually one of the best damage types that don't ignore armor overall.  Heat's status does significant damage over time while also doubling as CC.  The reason that enemies sometimes aren't CCed is because they are in an animation that overrides staggers and proc stuns (similar to how we can resist knockdowns using some animations.)  It's not random, but dependent on the enemy's animation state at the time.

 

DoT is fairly lackluster in general because TTK for enemies is so low to begin with. You can proc fire and wait for them to slowly burn to death, or you can use your gun to kill much faster.

 

I didn't know about the anim lock though, so cheers for that. Still, the fact that ember's CC can be circumvented simply by anims at all is something that needs to be fixed.

 

That's no justification for being a jerk though.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[RealPandemonium]

Relying on that for your CC seems... Well, it's cool that it works for you, but it must have required the timing of the gods. Expecting players to have that kind of skill in general, or balancing around players being god tier is probably not the best idea.

We're not god tier players.  We understand gameplay mechanics and we try to maximize our options through varying approaches.  If you understand how the damage system works and how mods work, and if you aren't lazy, you can produce these same results.  If you don't care to, then that's fine, but you shouldn't push for all frames to become mindless enemy 1-shotters or mass disablers just because it appeals to your personal sensibilities.  Timing of the gods?  Pressing 2 every couple of seconds isn't much more involved than pressing 4 every 8 seconds.  Retreating into the "you're better than me" argument is as fallacious as saying that Ember in T4+ content can't or couldn't reasonably be done.

Edited March 28, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

We're not god tier players.  We understand gameplay mechanics and we try to maximize our options through varying approaches.  If you understand how the damage system works and how mods work, and if you aren't lazy, you can produce these same results.  If you don't care to, then that's fine, but you shouldn't push for all frames to become mindless enemy 1-shotters or mass disablers just because it appeals to your personal sensibilities.  Timing of the gods?  Pressing 2 every couple of seconds isn't much more involved than pressing 4 every 8 seconds.  Retreating into the "you're better than me" argument is as fallacious as saying that Ember in T4+ content can't or couldn't reasonably be done.

The goal of this augment isn't too turn her into a press 2 to win frame. It's too make her more viable for a larger number of players. It's not as if it would allow every instance of accelerant to chain to the whole map for insane staking. And even if it did do that, it would still be dependent on you killing things with fire damage. Which means you'd have to use your weapons and other abilities to do the killing 

[DireMoose]

I'd definitely like to see it become a reality, or make it reduce enemy armour drastically. I've seen it for myself, even when it should be doing 12k+ fire damage, armour is mitigating it to lower than it's base fire damage of 4k on my hek shotgun. Yes I was point blank with it and no I wasn't missing any shots on the gigantic Corrupted Bombard.

[(XBOX)LilHypezKiid]

I like the idea, but I feel it should be apart of the base ability it self because augments should never be bandaids.

[Ryjeon]

The goal of this augment isn't too turn her into a press 2 to win frame. It's too make her more viable for a larger number of players. It's not as if it would allow every instance of accelerant to chain to the whole map for insane staking. And even if it did do that, it would still be dependent on you killing things with fire damage. Which means you'd have to use your weapons and other abilities to do the killing 

 

 

[You clearly have the timing of the gods] (ty :3)

 

DoT is fairly lackluster in general because TTK for enemies is so low to begin with. You can proc fire and wait for them to slowly burn to death, or you can use your gun to kill much faster.

 

This is the way Ember already works. World of Fire provides the majority of my damage mainly because it's persistent damage. The value of persistent damage such as damage from DoTs increases the longer enemies stay alive. Meanwhile you continue to use your weapons to direct focused damage same as any other frame. The persistent damage will continue to significantly assault the crowd while the player and team is free to prioritize targets with their weapons. The difference is Ember as a damage frame isn't committed to relying solely on her ultimate while it is active the way frames like Mesa, Ash, Saryn, and Banshee do. These other ultimates have limiting factors or simply serve a different role. Saryn's ultimate in particular is burst damage and not persistent damage.

 

And I like Accelerant's stun. I think it's one of the better ccs in the game. The fact that it doubles as her damage boost is just icing on the cake. It is the fastest activating non-enemycapped crowd control in the game. So it's really nice for a reactive playstyle. I play very very very fast. I used to run flags competitively in old Half-life Team Fortress Classic which was all about having really good timing to make chain grenade jumps. And I'm a musician so having games respond to timing and tempo is really appealing to me. So I've learned to constantly utilize all the movement quirks to their full advantage and am always refining my technique. To me that is what gives the game depth. And that's why I've never felt like this was a farming game. I can have just as much fun playing for 40 minutes with Skana as with Scindo Prime.

 

People may feel that it takes high skill to make Ember useful. But Ember is appealing because of how much she can accomplish when played to her potential. I feel significantly less limited when I play Ember in terms of overall CC, Ability Damage, Weapon Damage, teammate support, and freedom of movement than I do with other frames. It's not that Ember requires the timing of the gods. It's that she absolutely rewards it via versatility.

 

The tutorial describes the Tenno as "flowing like fire over the battlefield". In my experience Ember epitomizes this concept more-so than any other frame.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Ryjeon

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

I like the idea, but I feel it should be apart of the base ability it self because augments should never be bandaids.

I would also prefer that it became part of the base ability, but I feel like it's more likely to be implemented as an augment. Also if it were to become part of the ability, then it wouldn't be fair to banshee players who have to equip resonance still 

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

I don't think this should be an augment, I think it should be a part of the base power.

 

We don't really want to encourage DE to "fix" powers with augments. All powers should be viable to some extent, with augments adding cool new effects.

 

 

Let's have it as a buff instead of an augment.

 

Bandaid augments are crap, partly because they take up a slot to add an effect to an ability that should already be there.

 

 

 

 

 

I like the idea, but I feel it should be apart of the base ability it self because augments should never be bandaids.

So I was just sitting here at work with nothing to do but think about this change, and I realized you guys are right. I was originally thinking this would be more balanced as an augment. This is because the ability I used for inspiration was sonar, with its resonance augment. Why should we get it as a buff, while they have to use a mod slot on an augment? Then it got me, you can stack sonar by recasting it, but you can't do the same with accelerant. So yes I do concede that this should be a buff, rather than an augment 

[AdunSaveMe]

Why should we get it as a buff, while they have to use a mod slot on an augment?

simple solution; buff frames, remove crappy bandaids

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

simple solution; buff frames, remove crappy bandaids

Yes. Hopefully [DE]Scott sees this post on Monday and gives it some serious thought 

[taiiat]

casting Accelerant and simply Killing an Enemy to get a free cast of the Ability is too straightforward for what is effectively an Efficiency Mod.

Sonar requires you to Kill on the Sonar Dot.

if Accelerant had a similar system, you would need to Kill the Enemy in a specific way that follows the Ability.

then you can justify the Efficiency increase.

Edit:

as well as preventing native shield restoration.

that in particular is not even relevant.

Enemies on their own (save for Bosses) have a Shield Regen that is so slow that you'll die of old age before they regen up.

the only way they can realistically regen Shields is when a Shield Drone connects with them.

and as far as i can recall, that happens whether they're on Fire or not.

(also, that picture and anything related to it has no relevance whatsoever. 'ohh emm gee look at how many Kills i got' does not determine anything useful about a Warframe. besides, ~46% of those Kills was Melee. at the very least, counting Ability Kills would be what's relevant)

Edited March 29, 2015 by taiiat

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

casting Accelerant and simply Killing an Enemy to get a free cast of the Ability is too straightforward for what is effectively an Efficiency Mod.

Sonar requires you to Kill on the Sonar Dot.

if Accelerant had a similar system, you would need to Kill the Enemy in a specific way that follows the Ability.

then you can justify the Efficiency increase.

That's sort of what I was trying to accomplish by requiring the kills to be with fire damage. Do you have any other ideas? 

[taiiat]

That's sort of what I was trying to accomplish by requiring the kills to be with fire damage.

that makes it unreliable, so i don't really know if that would work.

if someone else uses an Augment on your Warframe to give it another Damage Type (in addition to it's existing), or you're using a Weapon(that isn't Ignis), then you have more than one Damage Type, and you can't control what will Kill the Enemy.

:/

do i have a better idea? atm not really, no. i can't think of anything off the top of my head that fits the theme of the Warframe while is also something you can do consistently (but not necessarily easily).

[Ryjeon]

casting Accelerant and simply Killing an Enemy to get a free cast of the Ability is too straightforward for what is effectively an Efficiency Mod.

Sonar requires you to Kill on the Sonar Dot.

if Accelerant had a similar system, you would need to Kill the Enemy in a specific way that follows the Ability.

then you can justify the Efficiency increase.

Edit:

that in particular is not even relevant.

Enemies on their own (save for Bosses) have a Shield Regen that is so slow that you'll die of old age before they regen up.

the only way they can realistically regen Shields is when a Shield Drone connects with them.

and as far as i can recall, that happens whether they're on Fire or not.

(also, that picture and anything related to it has no relevance whatsoever. 'ohh emm gee look at how many Kills i got' does not determine anything useful about a Warframe. besides, ~46% of those Kills was Melee. at the very least, counting Ability Kills would be what's relevant)

 

A 50 50 split between weapons and abilities is pretty good for what Ember is. Her damage isn't supposed to just come from abilities if you think it should you totally miss the point of her kit. And obviously with an account a few days old and lacking both streamline and flow I can't be constantly casting World on Fire. I have to use it selectively and effectively. The purpose of that mission results screen was to demonstrate that Ember's unmodded abilities were both a significant damage supplement even against armored targets up to level 30 armored as well as being a good tool to relieve enemy pressure via a mix of crowd control and taking out extra targets. This is especially clear considering I never left melee stance and so was able to operate safely in close range.  It stands to reason that were I modded to take advantage of Ember's multi-layer scaling it would still be useful vs higher level enemies, which is what I do every day with a variety different builds on my main account.

 

You're right that the shield point doesn't really matter so much except possibly when playing solo against corprus. But neither does fire have any significant drawbacks vs shields except proto shields. Heat is a jack-of-all-trades unspecialized damage type. Accelerant leverages this lack of significant weaknesses by significantly multiplying that general damage. If Heat were more specialized against a specific type the way combined elements are it would have to be balanced by being diminished against something else. This would pigeonhole Ember's damage. Instead Ember's damage is pretty much balanced against all the factions with some minor bonuses against the "foot troops" of flesh and infested. Accelerant's scaling is meant to take advantage of that balance, for both Ember's abilities and weapons. So from another point of view Heat's "weakness" is also it's strength.

 

I agree with your comment about the Augment suggestion and I'm surprised your point hasn't been brought up before. I do think OP's suggestion is in the right direction towards the usability issues a lot of players have with Accelerant. So I'm hoping it does receive an augment of some kind of to make it more accessible and open up new builds.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Ryjeon

[Ryjeon]

that makes it unreliable, so i don't really know if that would work.

if someone else uses an Augment on your Warframe to give it another Damage Type (in addition to it's existing), or you're using a Weapon(that isn't Ignis), then you have more than one Damage Type, and you can't control what will Kill the Enemy.

:/

do i have a better idea? atm not really, no. i can't think of anything off the top of my head that fits the theme of the Warframe while is also something you can do consistently (but not necessarily easily).

 

Maybe casting Fireball at an affected enemy could cause a recast?  Maybe it could proliferate the DoTs or Status effects in general too. That might be too strong, but it sounds like it could open up a new role for Ember. Volatile Kindling?

Edited March 29, 2015 by Ryjeon