One Simple Augment To Unquestionably Make Ember Endgame Viable

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

Ember had recently been buffed. The effectiveness of said buff is still being debated. She can be taken into "endgame", but only by extremely skilled players. To make her more viable for more players, I propose giving Accelerant the Resonance treatment. Make an augment that creates new, stackable instances of Accelerant. Casting Accelerant, and then killing an affected enemy with fire damage will cause that enemy to explode and spread more Accelerant. By making this stack low resonance, Ember will be able to crank out her damage much more effectively into endgame. Now I'd like to hear what you guys have to think

Edit: also creating more instances of Accelerant will create more stuns, thus improving is usefulness even more

Edit 4/7/15:

I've come to the conclusion that this should become part of the base ability. This change was inspired by Banshee's Sonar and it's resonance augment. But the difference between the two abilities is that Banshee's Sonar is stackable via recasting. Accelerant isn't. Also to counter the ability become too powerful, it would make sense for each individual instance, or stack of Accelerant, to be less effective than it is now.

Edited April 7, 2015 by (PS4)DanceOnUrGav3

[Kthal]

Sounds good to me.

[VoidPunch]

Seems like a really good idea.

[Latiac]

Ember and Ember Prime are among my favourite warframes, it'd be a good idea to make them 'end game' viable.

Supported.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I don't think this should be an augment, I think it should be a part of the base power.

 

We don't really want to encourage DE to "fix" powers with augments. All powers should be viable to some extent, with augments adding cool new effects.

[AdunSaveMe]

Let's have it as a buff instead of an augment.

 

Bandaid augments are crap, partly because they take up a slot to add an effect to an ability that should already be there.

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

Ember and Ember Prime are among my favourite warframes, it'd be a good idea to make them 'end game' viable.

Supported.

Ember prime is my baby. I just wish she was stronger 

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

I don't think this should be an augment, I think it should be a part of the base power.

 

We don't really want to encourage DE to "fix" powers with augments. All powers should be viable to some extent, with augments adding cool new effects.

 

 

Let's have it as a buff instead of an augment.

 

Bandaid augments are crap, partly because they take up a slot to add an effect to an ability that should already be there.

I wouldn't complain of this became part of the base power, but Idk if it's likely.  But you do both like the concept? 

[AdunSaveMe]

I wouldn't complain of this became part of the base power, but Idk if it's likely.  But you do both like the concept? 

I do. Sounds a lot like Saryn's Venom.

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

I do. Sounds a lot like Saryn's Venom.

I didn't even think about that similarity. Any suggestions based on your familiarity with that power? 

[AdunSaveMe]

I didn't even think about that similarity. Any suggestions based on your familiarity with that power? 

I'm not too familiar with it. I just know it spreads in a similar fashion.

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

Here's a link to my reddit post on the subject 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/30invw/one_augment_to_unquestionably_make_ember_endgame/

[AlphaHorseman]

I don't think this should be an augment, I think it should be a part of the base power.

 

We don't really want to encourage DE to "fix" powers with augments. All powers should be viable to some extent, with augments adding cool new effects.

 

 

Let's have it as a buff instead of an augment.

 

Bandaid augments are crap, partly because they take up a slot to add an effect to an ability that should already be there.

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

 

If this were to become the basic mechanics of the ability, I certainly wouldn't complain, but Idk how willing Scott would be to concede that point to us

[AlphaHorseman]

If this were to become the basic mechanics of the ability, I certainly wouldn't complain, but Idk how willing Scott would be to concede that point to us

With his statements about all frames being good in high level content, I would hope that he would agree that this could help Ember be useful at that level of play.

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

With his statements about all frames being good in high level content, I would hope that he would agree that this could help Ember be useful at that level of play.

Good point. Hopefully the devs see this suggestion and give it some thought 

[Jinryusai]

On a side note if accelerant target is hit with an explosion, especially world of fire, a larger explosion happens that matches the visuals of ruks World On fire...

[Reaver_X]

that, and make her ult full toggle.

[CY13ERPUNK]

still wouldnt make her 'end-game' viable, but obviously wouldnt hurt either

[Ryjeon]

Whenever I see posts like this it always makes me worried that Ember's going to get nerfed in order to implement a change like this. I worry that they will nerf her cc, which is currently unlimited except by energy costs which are easy to recoup. And she already has great scaling on both her weapons and her abilities with Accelerant and World on Fire's heat procs, so I worry they might actually nerf her potential.

 

The fact she is Heat focused is part of what makes her such a good endgame warframe. Heat is one of the best scaling damage types after Viral because of it's damage over time component combined with it's innate control from panic procs. Ember especially shines with Viral/Heat combo weapons because you can halve HP as well as enjoy the Accelerant boosted Heat damage.  If playing Mesa is like playing a Turret. Playing Ember is like playing an Aircraft Carrier. You run around casting your CC and using your weapons similarly to the old Radial Blind Excal playstyle. Meanwhile your ult is constantly calling in airstrikes all over the place. So her ult basically gives all this free damage that comes packed with it's own CC and added Damage-over-time. Meanwhile your weapons (and the weapons of your teammates if they are actually coordinating with Ember intelligently) are significantly buffed in damage and putting out their own status procs. And if your team is actually prepared to push to the late end-game then they're running 4x Corrosive Projections making enemies take even more damage from Viral AND Heat.

 

That said maybe an Augment for Accelerant to make it easier to use for people that are intrinsically adverse to frequently casting could open up build opportunities. Much like Despoil opens up new build and playstyle options for Nekros. Ember is already top-tier strong, but so many people still aren't getting how to use her or how she works. As far as damage goes I regularly wipe the floor with Novas, Saryns, Mirages, Mesas. In 40-60 minute Void Survivals I usually have the same damage done as my 3 team members combined. An Ash can probably outmatch my Ember but I rarely see Ashs. And on top of all that she has even more untapped buffing potential with Fireball Frenzy.

 

 

TLDR;

Basically Ember's super strong when played to her strengths. She'd probably have to get nerfed to fit more buffs. But I'm hoping not. I think an augment could be a good idea, but I just don't want to see her current strengths nerfed.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Ryjeon

[RealPandemonium]

Is this a real thread?  This would be laughably overpowered.  People who don't understand game mechanics really shouldn't give feedback.  

 

Edit: Read the first page of posts; was a horrifying read, minus Ryjeon's post.  The "buff everything" circlejerk is strong.  

Edited March 28, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Jinryusai]

Is this a real thread?  This would be laughably overpowered.  People who don't understand game mechanics really shouldn't give feedback.  

 

Edit: Read the first page of posts; was a horrifying read, minus Ryjeon's post.  The "buff everything" circlejerk is strong.  

At least my suggestion doesn't make her overpowered.

 

What would you even suggest?

[Cpl_Facehugger]

 

People who don't understand game mechanics really shouldn't give feedback.  

 

Do you think Ember is in a good place right now re high level content?

 

Because I don't think she is. I'm not sure what Ry's saying about heat damage scaling well, it doesn't. It's affected by armor unlike slash procs. It's stopped by shields unlike both toxin proc and toxin damage. It has unreliable CC against fleshy targets because for some reason sometimes enemies don't panic when set on fire. A moderately poor damage type (at least it's not magnetic, but fire isn't that much better) and some CC that doesn't always work really isn't really very impressive for high level play.

 

I mean, up to about level... 30 or so she's fine. But after that, welp. And when our current "endgame" is level 90 raids full of highly armored targets who laugh off fire, well...

[Ryjeon]

Do you think Ember is in a good place right now re high level content?

 

Because I don't think she is. I'm not sure what Ry's saying about heat damage scaling well, it doesn't. It's affected by armor unlike slash procs. It's stopped by shields unlike both toxin proc and toxin damage. It has unreliable CC against fleshy targets because for some reason sometimes enemies don't panic when set on fire. A moderately poor damage type (at least it's not magnetic, but fire isn't that much better) and some CC that doesn't always work really isn't really very impressive for high level play.

 

I mean, up to about level... 30 or so she's fine. But after that, welp. And when our current "endgame" is level 90 raids full of highly armored targets who laugh off fire, well...

 

Any endgame is about preparation and coordination. You're not going to go into a scenario against armored enemies without some way to deal with it either through corrosive projections or corrosive status procs, regardless of what damage type you want to focus on.  When I run with teams that do not have Corrosive Projections. I utilize a Corrosive Amprex to shred the armor of a room. Aside from armored foes Heat itself does not suffer damage reductions against any base enemy type except for Proto Shields which are fairly rare. On top of that Heat's damage over time aspect adds further bonus damage to all types, as well as preventing native shield restoration. In most cases Slash provides a stronger damage over time. But when coordinating with an Ember Heat is the way to go simply on the basis of ~400% extra damage to both Heat attacks and the burns.

 

Ember's primary crowd control is the Accelerant cast. The World on Fire and other heat procs provide breathing room between Accelerants and vice versa. A well played Ember will reduce the incoming damage pressure of the enemies by 90 to 99%. I used a max range Accelerant to get my Rift Sigil. And I'm often the one going for the far capsules in the last 5 minutes of an hour long survival, using Accelerant and World on Fire together to maintain a protective area around me.

 

If you can't utilize Ember past level 30s perhaps you need better mods. If you don't have access to endgame equipment then naturally your endgame perfomance will be lackluster. On the other hand...

 

I started a new account to level with and play Ember only. These are the results of a 35 minute Apollodorus where armored enemies did go past level 30. With no Intensify, no Streamline, and not even a fully ranked World on Fire I still put forward a strong performance largely on the basis of World on Fire's base power and control. So clearly Ember would be capable of going further with better equipment.

 

http://i.imgur.com/IjPIa4H.jpg?1

 

I think people mistake viability for appeal. People have a hard time with Ember because the approach that works best with Ember doesn't suit them. So they write her off as weak and praise the frames that more appeal to their playstyle and conceptual approach. But just because you find a frame unenjoyable or arcane doesn't mean it lacks strength or a role in the game. Maybe it's just not for you.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Ryjeon

[RealPandemonium]

Do you think Ember is in a good place right now re high level content?

 

Because I don't think she is. I'm not sure what Ry's saying about heat damage scaling well, it doesn't. It's affected by armor unlike slash procs. It's stopped by shields unlike both toxin proc and toxin damage. It has unreliable CC against fleshy targets because for some reason sometimes enemies don't panic when set on fire. A moderately poor damage type (at least it's not magnetic, but fire isn't that much better) and some CC that doesn't always work really isn't really very impressive for high level play.

 

I mean, up to about level... 30 or so she's fine. But after that, welp. And when our current "endgame" is level 90 raids full of highly armored targets who laugh off fire, well...

Armor laughs off every damage type except its 75% weakness.  Armor scaling in general is a bandaid against our power, which in turn requires bandaids against armor, like Corrosive Projection.  Ember's damage is nonetheless outclassed only by Miasma spam.  Numerous players have demonstrated that Ember can hold her own against 35+ Grineer and Void missions.  Ember being bad is a myth propagated by people who dismissed her after the removal of Overheat and people who slot Narrow Minded or don't use a max efficiency build and then wonder why they aren't auto-winning.  Also, people who think that Miasma is a good paradigm for ability design.  As a final note, Heat damage is actually one of the best damage types that don't ignore armor overall.  Heat's status does significant damage over time while also doubling as CC.  The reason that enemies sometimes aren't CCed is because they are in an animation that overrides staggers and proc stuns (similar to how we can resist knockdowns using some animations.)  It's not random, but dependent on the enemy's animation state at the time.

Edited March 28, 2015 by RealPandemonium