Really Disappointed With Dev Response On Flag Carrier Balance

[Aggh]

Allowing the flag carrier so much mobility really kills the depth of gameplay and team work required in the game mode.  It turns the mode into a dumb rush for the flag as the only way to defend the flag.  How on earth anyone sees this as a fun take on ctf is beyond me.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Aggh

[Arcadiace]

Since when has any PvP game greatly hindered a flag carrier?

[spiralmenace]

Since when has any PvP game greatly hindered a flag carrier?

halo. your movement speed is slashed and you're unable to fire any guns while carrying the flag lol

[Xiusa]

Since when has any PvP game greatly hindered a flag carrier?

Quite a few. In Halo, iirc, your movement is hindered slightly and you can only melee. This might not be true for Halo 4 because I haven't touched it in so long but that's besides the point.

The problem that exists isn't the fact that it's not toned down in PvP. The problem is also an issue in PvE but it's overlooked because you're not competing against another player.

[Aggh]

Since when has any PvP game greatly hindered a flag carrier?

Pretty much every well made game with ctf ever made(UT and halo come to mind first) with the exception of tribes.  Tribes can get away with that though due to the massive speed, multiple spawn points for teams and massive maps that flag carriers have to cover without getting killed.

 

Meanwhile, warframe has tiny maps and very few counters outside of flag rushing and a couple poorly balanced abilities like bullet attractor.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Aggh

[TheSIlent1]

They should base CTC on halo no cause halo did Ctf right and it was fun and a great memory but because it would be a fun take on it. *remembers blood gulch*

 

Maybe we should only be able to hit things with a box of cephalon? 

 

But the speed the movement speed needs to be slowed.

Edited March 28, 2015 by TheSIlent1

[low1991]

Pretty much every well known game with ctf ever made.

+1

Pretty much all (most) PVP games with CTF mode has speed debuff or some other function disabled.

[oinkah]

They did say they tested it before, so it might have some merit. Besides, teamwork is almost non existent at the moment, so any nerf to flag carrier might make it too difficult to score and cause stalemates.

[AlphaSierraMike]

Quite a few. In Halo, iirc, your movement is hindered slightly and you can only melee. This might not be true for Halo 4 because I haven't touched it in so long but that's besides the point.

The problem that exists isn't the fact that it's not toned down in PvP. The problem is also an issue in PvE but it's overlooked because you're not competing against another player.

Halo 4's Flag doesn't allow sprint normally, so there's that.

 

From memory, I think one of the PvP developers mentioning they tried and tested doing mobility debuffs on carriers but they scraped the idea. So there goes the CTC playlist down the drain, or any capture based gametypes that follow suit.

[Aggh]

They did say they tested it before, so it might have some merit. Besides, teamwork is almost non existent at the moment, so any nerf to flag carrier might make it too difficult to score and cause stalemates.

You mean the same testing that gave us one hit copter attacks and super OP Iron skin?  And kept arcane helmets in PvP?

Edited March 28, 2015 by Aggh

[Valcio]

Mobility should be hindered in general.

[oinkah]

You mean the same testing that gave us one hit copter attacks and super OP Iron skin?  And kept arcane helmets in PvP?

Good point. Then I guess effect on gameplay from slow carriers is unknown.

Edited March 28, 2015 by oinkah

[XxCurtennoxX]

Considering how tiny the maps are and how we can practically fly with melee coptering, it does make every game boring when you spend more time chasing someone than actually killing or defending. There is very rarely any way to stop someone when they're coptering everywhere and it's stupid. I look forward to TDM and DM modes where we can actually spend time playing Player vs Player rather than Chase the carrier. I was expecting them to at least do something about it but clearly they aren't at all :/

[onemoonlight]

they've said they're adding tdm and dm, so hopefully we wont have to play rush the cephalon ever again if we dont want to

[S3EK3R]

Just played a game that ended in two minutes. The game was "Which flag carrier can copter faster". Turns out that a Frost can be just as fast as a Mag, which is kinda ridiculous. You cannot kill a coptering player. You need to copter in order to catch that player, which leaves you unable to attacks. Any kinds of opening are non-existent due to the walls that are EVERYWHERE. Mag's pull is also useless in this matter. Her range and cone is so low that enemies simply get out of range before the cast time is half done. Not considering the bug, where the target is not stunned when using copter.

[DitsyPixie]

Pretty much every well made game with ctf ever made(UT and halo come to mind first) with the exception of tribes.  Tribes can get away with that though due to the massive speed, multiple spawn points for teams and massive maps that flag carriers have to cover without getting killed.

 

Meanwhile, warframe has tiny maps and very few counters outside of flag rushing and a couple poorly balanced abilities like bullet attractor.

^+1

 

Also in most games the carrier doesn't have access to stuff like volt-speed and coptering...

[Burnthesteak87]

Just be patient and focus on giving a neat and clear feedback. If people will understand this, time by time it will just become better.

What about adding some Spy2.0 to the map? I mean activating defenses and obstacles when the Cephalon get grabbed..

Edited March 28, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[onemoonlight]

quake has no slow on flag, and players in quake can achieve quite fast velocities, combined with rocket jumps, but:

 

- quake maps have usually only 2 paths - top/bottom or left/right - and they meet in the middle of the map, unlike wf maps which offer 3 (left, mid, right on ice map; top/mid/bottom platform on gas city; top/bottom/side on orokin) which are separate, and in quake it actually takes more than 5 jumps to get from one base to the other, as well as more skill than binding a macro

 

- players dont respawn in waves and can spawn in the middle of the map, where there's usually a hitscan weapon waiting (rails, shotguns)

 

- if you intercept the flag carrier you can shoot on the run while maintaining speed, unlike while coptering

 

(...) What about adding some Spy2.0 to the map? I mean activating defenses and obstacles when the Cephalon get grabbed..

 

like what, trip lasers? You can copter through the lasers and not get stunned, because coptering makes you ignore CC effects, and even if they fix that there's still dodging, which will slow a rusher down by maybe a split second. Any obstacles can be ignored with air dashing

 

edit: i actually hope elemental damage will fix something - maybe we'll be able to apply cold procs on people, that would help a ton

Edited March 28, 2015 by onemoonlight

[KriLL3]

Not sure I can remember a single game that doesn't slow the carrier, UT didn't allow the carrier to use the translocator without leaving the flag behind for example.

 

Reason I'd suggest slowing the carrier either using a flat reduction or not allowing them to copter, use speed powers etc is because it renders the gameplay and possible tactics to employ very simple and cheap. It's very hard to shoot a coptering carrier and while they're coptering you can't see the cephalon. Due to the immense speed of coptering combined with the fairly small maps with a lot of objects/walls to duck behind it's very hard to kill a flag carrier before they're out of view.

 

Combined with the spread out pickups that ensure survival (health + energy) and combat dominance (energy) this means that carriers currently grab the cephalon, copter out of sight and if theirs is taken start flying around the map from pickup to pickup, their high speed makes pursuit nearly impossible especially since you can't shoot them and keep up with them at the same time, only real counter to this is to survive long enough to collect enough energy to either use 4 or 1 once or more to get enough burst to kill them.

 

This is made worse by the fact that the carrier is only distinguished from other players by the small cube in their hands that quite frequently isn't even visible (coptering animation makes the 2 hands hold melee weapon(s)) so you don't even know at first which of several enemy players to kill.

 

There are also several really cheap places to hide in the maps, worse one is the outdoors mountain one, you can hide on top of the mountain in a couple of places, below the walking platform in a bunch more, you can hide fairly close to your own cephalon while waiting for it to be returned and you can sit in such a way that you're nearly impossible to spot from the walkway, only way for people to spot you is to actively look in those places, which makes them perfect power/bow targets. "ha ha, found you, you camping #!$*" *arrow through face*

 

Also a fairly big problem IMHO that the TTK is so short and if you can make it even shorter by picking up energy, and you spawn with no energy, this makes spawn camping/killing a fairly easy and viable tactic, specially since you spawn so exposed and the enemy can stand behind something with half or more of their body somehow with a carged bow shot for you.

 

All this combines into gameplay that overly rewards very simple tactics, namely coptering around, hogging pickups and using powers, defense using weapons and team coordination are both highly disadvantageous tactics, volt using 4 in their own base is the ultimate defense, 4 in enemy base is the ultimate attack, 4 players can die in a split second with few/no ways to avoid it. It feels cheap, and I feel cheap doing it, but it's one of the few ways you can reliably kill flag carriers. The winning strategy currently is to copter around 24/7 between cephalons and pickups, only stopping to push 4 or snipe players silly enough to be holding a gun. It feels more like some kind of endless runner/race than a competitive shooter.

Edited March 28, 2015 by KriLL3

[Burnthesteak87]

snip

I really appreciate the fact that you can't live without bashing other's ideas. :D

Only a dumb person would make such a change without taking in consideration coptering.

[onemoonlight]

i didnt bash, the idea is good, but with currently existing mechanics and DE's stubbornness, and even fixes to some of the current mechanics - like copter cc immunity removal - it doesnt change that much

[KriLL3]

Additionally the host has a pretty silly level of advantage, if you're host it's very hard to loose a fair 1on1 fight, when I'm host (I usually am, I've set a low ping limit and I'm on 100Mbit fiber) I kill 2x what the rest of my team combined manage usually, if you go around a corner and come face to face with an enemy 9/10 you win since you get a split second advantage. When I'm not host I get a lot less kills.

Edited March 28, 2015 by KriLL3

[S3EK3R]

Yea. The CC ignore is a serious thing. THAT needs to go for sure. I use Mag in PvP and casting pull is useless 80% of the time. Since Mag is static while casting her one, she's an easy target. Casting her one at a target usually results with Mag at a disadvantage.

 

>Mag casts ability number one.

>Coptering enemy ignores CC.

>Coptering enemy hits Mag.

>Mag recovers from cast animation.

>Mag dies.

[rockscl]

It feels more like some kind of endless runner/race than a competitive shooter.

 

this, i think de should share with the community at least 24 hours of testing the slowed down carrier, since its a community idea

[Lowsodium]

I think the flag runner should have an icon over their head and maybe even a constant presence on the minimap. Right now it's far too difficult to figure out who is holding the flags, even for your own team. It makes prioritizing your targets almost impossible.

 

This problem is compounded by the fact that when coptering the flag is not visible. So if you run past an enemy who is coptering you don't know if he is running with the flag or just some guy moving to the other side of the map. This mean the flag runner can copter wherever he wants with no penalty. He won't be giving himself away and it gives him the entire map to run and hide.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Lowsodium