Add A Fourth Starter Frame Female

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

Firstly can you name at least one game that is explicitely hostile to women? I consider that to be a tough statement. (And don't name Duke Nukem... it is a relict from the 80s and nobody bought it anyways)

And secondly I for my part live in germany. Our president (Bundeskanzler) is a woman because she was the best for the job at that time and not because she was (and... still is^^) a woman. Nobody even talked about that. It simply didn't occur to someone to question that.

In germany I live in a region called Saarland. Our Governer (Ministerpresident) is a woman. Why? Because she was the best for the job. In Saarland I live in a town called Saarbrücken. Guess what our mayor is??? Correct. a woman. Why??? Because she was the best for the job again.

This happens when nobody talks about differences all the time. This happens when people decide according to what is the best solution for the greater good.

I am 34 years old so I witnessed quite some election compaigns. And I seriously cannot remember that any candidate ever even mentioned hie or her gender.

And did I mention that I'm colored and head of my department where I work? Why? Because I was the best for the job.

 

And I think Rhino loses his easy mode relatively early in the game. He is a frame that is incredibly strong in the beginning and starts lose his use over the course of the game while other characters like Nyx for example (sorry... my example for everything as I freaking love her) starts off weak in develops into being a godlike entity. So I don't think Rhino's overpowered. And also like I said... people get him as the very first unlockable frame anyways really early in the game. So I don't think that there would be any harm done.

I could practically just list the industry release schedule as a list of examples. Though a game doesn't have to be openly hostile to be exclusive to woman and enforce a toxic male centric gaming community. But, I will also point out that Duke Nukem did finally get a re-release and it didn't improve with time. GTA continues to present woman and the worst light and better yet allows to you have sex with a prostitute and murder them after. Anyways, you have a female prez, must be no more sexism in Germany, congratulations. Is the U.S. we have a black prez and there is no racism here anymore. Don't confuse progress or the appearance of progress as the sign of a better world and the right to relax on the issues. Just because your in a more progressive nation doesn't mean we can pretend there are know problems. I know for a fact that there are plenty of people in Germany that have all kinds of issue, and pretending that the country is past all that isn't making it go away. Don't get me wrong, the U.S. takes the cake in being messed up and hypocritical, but I have yet to see an enlightened society yet. Or don't, I am not trying to convince you, I was suggesting an opportunity for DE to make a choice to stand up and be proactive on an issue that really sucks in the game industry and society in general. And it was one that I think doesn't compromise the game as other have suggested. 

 

As far as Rhino goes, that too is debatable. But, I love Nyx too eve if she might be too subtle for a starter frame. 

Edited April 1, 2015 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[S7ORM]

... Then why not two starter frames?

Not sexism per se, but gender equality. I actually think Warframe does a great job with gender, why not keep that up and balance out the starter frame?

Because the starter frames are not options because of their gender, sex or sexuality. They are options because they each offer a different playstyle for new players to learn how to play.

Female and Male, this categorization literally has NO effect on gameplay at all. Everyone can play every frame, and each offers their own unique skills.

So, not only does starter frame not matter, since all frames are obtainable in the game already, sex or gender of the starter frame does not matter, because sex and gender do not matter in the game.

Edited April 1, 2015 by S7ORM

[(PSN)Borengar629]

In fact DE took the opportunity already by changing the roster from Excal, Loki and Volt to Excal, Mag and Loki (and then Volt again). But look what it has done for them? Apparantly nothing because we still are discussing equalitiy here aren't we? And why? Because equality has to achieved by the book and by the absolut correct number? I don't think so.

Wanna know what sucks? That they had to put Mag in in the first place to avoid the very disussion we are leading here. This is inequality.

By the way I didn't say that there is no more inequalitiy in general where I live. Saying something like that would be utterly stupid. People will always have all kinds of issues.

But you having a colored president and us here a female one is not a step in the right direction or anything like that. It is merely a sign that those who have the wrong ideas about equality are in the minority at the moment. And that by any means is a) a good thing and b) everything any activism can ever hope to achieve. You maybe can change society as a whole but not every single individual. This will never happen. And society or the majority of such gave the sign that they are over stupid misconceptions like racism and sexism. So congrats you won. At least the war that you ever can hope to win.

Waving flags everytime an individual does something that by general standards may be seen as inappropriate will not get you anywhere but will fuel the fire like forever. The A******s are already in the minority so let them die out. The more unnoticed the better. Those very people we are talking about here don't deserve being mentioned by anyone. They deserve to lead their little selfish elitist lifes they so desire unnoticed and alone.

This is how you counteract things like that. You simple exclude those from modern society as good as you personally can.

And those old white men in their cigarre clubs living in the 19th century but earning 95% of the world's income.... Do you think any activism in the world could impress them? Not seriously. But if their sons (at least for the next generation mainly) grow up surrounded by educated free thinking people only they have to question the philosophies of their parents and maybe become better persons themselves.

 

But you're right about GTA. They really should bring a patch with male prostitutes you can F*** and murder... That would make things equal.

 

And about Nyx. Maybe subtle but it would give new players allow different approaches to Warframe. Rhino the tank, Trinity the healer, Ash the damage dealer and Nyx as a support- and cc-oriented frame would present them with the largest variety possible in my opinion.

[mkmahdi24]

Either Nyx or Trinity should make that 4th spot

And maybe replace Volt with Loki (again)

I don't think Loki should be a starter frame again because in his description it even says that he is for the more advanced players

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

Because the starter frames are not options because of their gender, sex or sexuality. They are options because they each offer a different playstyle for new players to learn how to play.

Female and Male, this categorization literally has NO effect on gameplay at all. Everyone can play every frame, and each offers their own unique skills.

So, not only does starter frame not matter, since all frames are obtainable in the game already, sex or gender of the starter frame does not matter, because sex and gender do not matter in the game.

It has been brought up multiple times and I have conceded that if there are no reasonably suited female frames for the starter roster, then it would be unwise to force one just for gender balance. I however find it unlikely there is no candidate that could fit. I also have mentioned that one of the points of doing this for the starter frames is that this is one of the first comments in the game and first impressions. Firstly, this can effect how a new female gamer sees the game and determines if they even feel the game is worth pursuing or they might assume it is just as exclusive as the vast majority of games. Secondly, it is an opportunity for DE if it chooses to pick a moment to have a more progressive game that is inclusive presenting. That is a conscious decision, and a risk that DE doesn't have to make. But, Bioware (they make Mass Effect, right?) does a pretty good job on being forward with more then just gender status in its games.

 

In fact DE took the opportunity already by changing the roster from Excal, Loki and Volt to Excal, Mag and Loki (and then Volt again). But look what it has done for them? Apparantly nothing because we still are discussing equalitiy here aren't we? And why? Because equality has to achieved by the book and by the absolut correct number? I don't think so.

Wanna know what sucks? That they had to put Mag in in the first place to avoid the very disussion we are leading here. This is inequality.

By the way I didn't say that there is no more inequalitiy in general where I live. Saying something like that would be utterly stupid. People will always have all kinds of issues.

But you having a colored president and us here a female one is not a step in the right direction or anything like that. It is merely a sign that those who have the wrong ideas about equality are in the minority at the moment. And that by any means is a) a good thing and b) everything any activism can ever hope to achieve. You maybe can change society as a whole but not every single individual. This will never happen. And society or the majority of such gave the sign that they are over stupid misconceptions like racism and sexism. So congrats you won. At least the war that you ever can hope to win.

Waving flags everytime an individual does something that by general standards may be seen as inappropriate will not get you anywhere but will fuel the fire like forever. The A******s are already in the minority so let them die out. The more unnoticed the better. Those very people we are talking about here don't deserve being mentioned by anyone. They deserve to lead their little selfish elitist lifes they so desire unnoticed and alone.

This is how you counteract things like that. You simple exclude those from modern society as good as you personally can.

And those old white men in their cigarre clubs living in the 19th century but earning 95% of the world's income.... Do you think any activism in the world could impress them? Not seriously. But if their sons (at least for the next generation mainly) grow up surrounded by educated free thinking people only they have to question the philosophies of their parents and maybe become better persons themselves.

 

But you're right about GTA. They really should bring a patch with male prostitutes you can F*** and murder... That would make things equal.

 

And about Nyx. Maybe subtle but it would give new players allow different approaches to Warframe. Rhino the tank, Trinity the healer, Ash the damage dealer and Nyx as a support- and cc-oriented frame would present them with the largest variety possible in my opinion.

Again, I feel like your hearts in the right place, and you are right that socially stigmatizing or ostracizing, and excluding bad social behavior can be a very effective method of reducing and ending a unwanted social behavior. Unfortunately, all over the world negative social behavior are institutionally,  and culturally enforced, or incentivized, encouraged or otherwise allowed. As such those regressive systems have to be challenged. And some cases where such attempts backfire does not discredit the need for action. 

 

Lol. GTA equal opportunity abuse, huh?

 

I love Nyx but I am on the fence over endorsing her as a starter frame. She basically has the same problem as Loki for a starter frame. Though they did sate up front that Loki was for advanced player, DE ultimately decided to rotate Loki out. With that precedence, I don't see it working out for Nyx as a starter frame. This could be an issue for a lot of the female frames, as most of them are either too OP right out the gate, or they are to subtle and complicated for good starter frames. I don't have the energy to comb over all the frames and evaluate their starter quality, so I may have to assume that DE simply made the best possible decision. It just seems unlikely that the nearly a dozen female frames only one is a good starter candidate.

Edited April 1, 2015 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[OK9ZERA]

There was no way this topic was going to go well, was there?

 

Look, there are good reasons for this suggestion. Firstly, 4 characters for 4 friends new to the game makes sense. You don't want duplicates. 

 

Secondly, the roles of the starter frames aren't perfect to begin with. Mag is okay, Excalibur kind of sucks, and Volt is mainly used for his speed and electric shield. Ember could do well as a casting frame with more emphasis on AOE.

 

Now, that's reason enough to add a fourth starter. If we can make that starter female and have an equal starter ratio, then that's a bonus, not "sexism". Maybe next time leave your dismissive and childish attitudes at the door? No one is trying to politicise this game. There is an equal number of female and male warframes, changing the starters to reflect that isn't a dreaded act of "cultural Marxism" or whatever you want to call representation.

 

Also, don't kid yourself. Most female frames have very similar body shapes and skintight suits, where males have much more variety, and armour, in general. Not that most of you seem to mind, of course.

[S7ORM]

It has been brought up multiple times and I have conceded that if there are no reasonably suited female frames for the starter roster, then it would be unwise to force one just for gender balance. I however find it unlikely there is no candidate that could fit. I also have mentioned that one of the points of doing this for the starter frames is that this is one of the first comments in the game and first impressions. Firstly, this can effect how a new female gamer sees the game and determines if they even feel the game is worth pursuing or they might assume it is just as exclusive as the vast majority of games. Secondly, it is an opportunity for DE if it chooses to pick a moment to have a more progressive game that is inclusive presenting. That is a conscious decision, and a risk that DE doesn't have to make. But, Bioware (they make Mass Effect, right?) does a pretty good job on being forward with more then just gender status in its games.

As a female gamer, with one irl female friend who plays this game -- my favourite frame being Loki and hers being Excalibur (maybe also Nyx) -- I can honestly say that gender and sex have nothing to do with how I perceive this game (note: THIS, not A game). I know there is an argument that that's not the case for every person playing, but if the content of the game has nothing to do with those things, introducing them is just preyin-- I mean playing -- on insecurities.

This is the reason I also ignore the threads like "Why are <Gender> frames better than <Other Gender> frames?" and "Why No real <Gender> Tanks?" They just push on insecurities as argument for having things their way. With a game like GTA where sex, gender and sexuality have an effect on gameplay, I can understand arguments for changes, etc. Warframes are literally suits of metal.

 

A) It's never even been confirmed that the tenno inside the warframes are human, and have human sexes

B) Judging by Ordis' comments when changing warframes, and during the Limbo Theorum, one Tenno wears multiple suits -- Trinity is not a Female, and Volt is not a Male. They're all whomever the Tenno inside them are.

C) Tenno were twisted by the void (and in my headcannon, the infestation too) so they may even be so deformed that whatever sexes they may originally have had don't even matter anymore.

Mostly B).

If you want to play a specific role, get the frame that has a skill set that compliments that. Leave sex/gender out of it.

 

 

There was no way this topic was going to go well, was there?

 

Look, there are good reasons for this suggestion. Firstly, 4 characters for 4 friends new to the game makes sense. You don't want duplicates. 

 

Secondly, the roles of the starter frames aren't perfect to begin with. Mag is okay, Excalibur kind of sucks, and Volt is mainly used for his speed and electric shield. Ember could do well as a casting frame with more emphasis on AOE.

 

Now, that's reason enough to add a fourth starter. If we can make that starter female and have an equal starter ratio, then that's a bonus, not "sexism". Maybe next time leave your dismissive and childish attitudes at the door? No one is trying to politicise this game. There is an equal number of female and male warframes, changing the starters to reflect that isn't a dreaded act of "cultural Marxism" or whatever you want to call representation.

I point you to point B). I do however, like the point you bring up about 4 friends starting the game and each wanting to choose a separate warframe. That is an argument I would support for having 4 starting frames. However, the third paragraph is kind of dismissable, since a new player starting the game is going to be lacking a few things, including:

-Mods to maximize specific skills

-Experience to know what skills are the best on specific warframes and how to play that frame

-Levelled content that requires focus on those specific skills/gear (that means mods)

Volt has abilties that support his and his team's weapons, Mag has abilties that... do things (I don't play her much...) but I guess support her team: ragdolling, stunning, refilling shields, Excalibur has abilities that make you not want to use his abilties and just kill things with weapons instead (I jest). I agree Ember could be a 4th that encourages ability use over weapons.

I see your

Also, don't kid yourself. Most female frames have very similar body shapes and skintight suits, where males have much more variety, and armour, in general. Not that most of you seem to mind, of course.

And I raise you:

But really. Point B)

Edited April 1, 2015 by S7ORM

[TheBrsrkr]

Okay, Trinity will not be a good starter Warframe as he is ENTIRELY supportive, and since most of the time players run theough the beginning of the starchart almost solo (with nobody to support), she wouldn't really make sense. Not to mention that the player is stuck with her for quite a while and her lack of offense coupled with the suckish guns you have wouldn't exactly make it easy.

 

ON another note, 4 starters is a great idea for if 4 friends were to start playing. Ember would be a great choice. However, I don't think she should be put there out of political correctness. If she works as a starter frame, put her there as a starter frame, not to appease anyone who screams of privelige and unfair representation. If you pick a Warframe solely because of its gender, you're probably doing it wrong. 

[Lightsmith]

The starter frames are based on play style. Adding a female for the sake of it really would disrupt this.

Really warframe shouldn't be about gender. There is no gender choice and the frames do not have a gender alternative for equal abilities.

I think having a gender option at the start way steer players towards that frame simply due to it being female, which isn't the way the game is.

[HyenaGrin]

..............

 

I am going to avoid the minefield of people somehow pretending that asking for equal representation is pretentious or even sexist, because I really don't have the patience to argue. 

 

Groups are made up of four players. It makes sense to have four starting frames to avoid overlap. There are an equal number of male/female warframes in the game, it shouldn't be hard to find a second female frame.

 

Trinity or Ember would both be good starter frames. Trinity provides a level of support that would make a starter group more successful if they work together, and can even become a fairly good solo frame with the right mods. Ember provides raw crowd damage that is good  in the early game and can make certain content which can be difficult in the early game when you lack mod options (defense, survival) quite a bit more manageable.

 

I can say from personal experience that myself and a friend both wanted to select female warframes when we started out, and unfortunately there was one one female frame to choose from. So rather than doubling up on the same frame, I decided to just go with a male frame. Did it prevent me from continuing to play and get into the game? No, but it did impact my first impression, and it did mean not getting the option I wanted, in the spirit of cooperation. There's really no reason why this situation needs to exist. A second female frame wouldn't hurt anything and would benefit people. 

Edited April 1, 2015 by HyenaGrin

[JayGideon1]

I think adding a new starter just to add equality isnt really needed. the reason its unbalance is not because the Devs hate any gender, but purely because the devs chose an odd number for starters, nothing more, nothing less so the argument for doing this to add equality to me seems rather invalid and unneeded. no point on looking for injustice where there is none after all. They simply chose three because they felt it was the best choice, and seemingly continue to think three is the best choice for their game. 

 

 

However, to add another starter to explore roles in a squad is interesting an interesting idea, as for starters i think that Ember would be the best choice if a new starter were to be implemented she is generally good in lower level content (which i hope they fix). pure support characters are really hard to get off the ground so i would say no to trinity as a possibility just because she can be a pain to level since she has nothing going for direct damage. Nyx sort of for the same reason, i would say the new starter should have some form of damage and Nyx's only damage ability is utterly garbage. 

 

But i would like to state that i do believe the current three frame starter system works well enough and does not need change, and the absolutely eloquent argument of, "Why not?" isnt really valid, if it aint broke dont fix it sort of thing. the only valid argument i have seen so far is if 4 friends started playing all at once. but i would like to  know how often that happen for it to warrant any sort of change to the game. 

Edited April 1, 2015 by JayGideon1

[Mesyra]

sounds like you're over analyzing this, yeah another female frame would be great, I'd like to see Nyx or Trin as the new one, but its not needed.

 

and using this as "Gender Equality" in starter frames is pointless.

 

we dont have a female limbo, frost, excalibur, rhino, loki, etc, and we dont have a male valkyr, nyx, saryn, nova, mag, etc.

 

+1 for another starter frame so that players have a chance to have 3 different frames in a mission, not a +1 for the over analysis.

 

also, I saw a few people wanting loki back as a starter, I say thats a bad idea. he was my starter frame because "oh hey he turns invisible, how cool." and then I see my team mates using their really cool ults while I am running around getting no kills and I'm sitting here like "yay, they killed everything and all I made them do is pull out sticks"

 

Ash would be a lot better for a starter frame if we were to add a stealth frame again.

[Old_King_Belgothia]

A forth starter frame sounds like a good idea. It doesn't need to be female though, and all the reasons I've seen posted in here saying it should be are assinine. This isn't a sunny delight advertisement where we gotta be inclusive for political correctness or anything. That kinda kotaku, 3rd-wave feminism is the last thing I wanna see around here.

 

That said, it's hard to decide what frame it should be. I thought ember, but that's just another casting frame so volt has that. Someone suggested trinity... that's a definite no since that's very support heavy role that other players have very specific expectations for the player to fill out, mainly providing power to the team 100% of the time. Not a good place to be for a newbie.

 

I'm actually thinking Nova. Has more CC (unless you count Excal's 4 but we know that's getting nerfed to oblivion) and her Worm Hole would give new players the chance to experiment with movement-related abilities.

 

That said, I don't think DE will do any of this simply because of the market. All the starter frames are really cheap. If one of the more expensive frames was available for free then many guides and suggestions from the community would recommend the new 4th starting frame simply because of its platinum value, mentioning that they can buy the other starter frames on the cheap if they decide to go that way instead of grinding.

 

Maybe that wouldn't be the case, but either way it messes with the market and I can't see that not causing problems somewhere for DE.

Edited April 1, 2015 by MrDaylight

[(PSN)Artennos]

Not necessary but I think Banshee would be a good adition to the starter frames.

[MagPrime]

Not necessary but I think Banshee would be a good adition to the starter frames.

I agree with that.  She gives a combination of stealth potential, damage buff and damage output.

 

And I would like to reiterate; She should be added because she is good for gameplay, not because she is female.  She should be added as a starter 'frame to give more options to female gamers that want to play female characters.  She shouldn't be added just because she's female.

 

To clarify on my comments earlier, to me gender equality means being judged based on your strengths, weaknesses and other abilities.  Not what may or may not be between your legs.  Adding, specifically a female, 'frame just for the sake of having her there, isn't equality.  You're broadening the options, yes.  But you aren't doing anything to show the strengths/weaknesses/abilities of each 'frame, just by having an equal number of genders.  

 

If DE wanted to become more politically active  and make changes to the game to reflect that (please don't, this game is fine as is.) then I'd suggest they give new players the ability to play through the tutorial as different 'frames with Lotus explaining their quirks, abilities, etc. during the mission and only at the end of all that does the player pick a starter 'frame.  

(Honestly, I've suggested this change in the past and equality or not, I still think it's a good idea to make this change.  Not for equality reasons but because it helps new players make better 'frame choices.)

 

Going back to one of my earlier posts, I still believe that this isn't the game nor the correct approach for this.  Gender in-equality is a much larger issue that is seen by people that don't play video games.  If you want to improve the in-equality in our world, then you have to take action in the education and legislation arena more than the gaming entertainment one.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Noamuth

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

Very good points, everyone. I see it breaking down to this.

 

A) If a female frame can be added to the starter roster without unbalancing the experience great.

B) Making a gender balanced starter roster is a choice, and a statement or stance. So, of course it isn't necessary. Its just a good thing to do.

 

In the case of point A the game should not be compromised for a political decision, obviously. For point B, sexism, gender equality, inclusiveness, these are real issues and pretending that they are not or they don't apply here is silly. Commercially speaking, woman are people too, they have proven they like most of the same things men do, at least when it comes to video games. Inclusivity in the gaming community would foster a expanded female demographic and benefit the gaming industry as a whole, so it is just good business.

 

Wasn't really my intent to crusade the cause on the thread, but you know, the internet. Merely suggesting gender equality and I have to strap my gloves on and be ready to go ten rounds.

 

Having said all that, I have learned a lot over the course of this thread. This thread managed to stay surprising civil and respectful, and that is incredible. I thank everyone for participating and sharing their point of view.

Edited April 1, 2015 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[Salenstormwing]

Not necessary but I think Banshee would be a good adition to the starter frames.

 

Banshee's not really used a lot, as far as I can see. But as a starter frame, she's got a fair mix of abilities, and works well in several different setups from either stealth or supporting offense. Plus, she's a Tenno Lab frame. If you're not in a clan, you're not going to get her. So yeah, why not give folks access to a frame that's less popular and could be a decent addition to the starter frame set?

[Kestral9999]

*sigh* Why not?

 

I don't care for the reasoning, making everything some kind of divisive gender issue is absolutely unnecessary. My wife plays Warframe every now and again on my XB1 and do you know who she picked to start with? Volt. 

 

Yeah. Volt. She saw the option for Mag and just said "Meh, I like Volt he looks more fun to play as. Also LIGHTNING!" and then she pinched my nipple. We're weird (her especially).

 

Anyway, if we are just talking about having simply MORE options to start the game off with, I'm totally open to that. Do I think that if we added a new starter frame it should be female? Sure. Why? Equal representation and fairness. But I wouldn't lobby for the inclusion of a fourth starter frame JUST because of the skewed ratio of men to women. Now, if ALL of the starting frames were male (Cali, Loki, and Volt), I'd probably take issue with that. That's actually being non-inclusive, which isn't very cool to the (relatively) few women out there who do actually play games like this.

 

Point being; while I don't necessarily agree with your perspective reasoning, I do agree that if another starter were added to the roster to keep in line with the four player co-op, I'd absolutely be open to it being female. There aren't really any sound arguments against it.

 

Personally, my vote is for Banshee. She's severely underused by most of the Warframe populace and she could be a decent replacement for Loki as the stealth oriented crowd control frame.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Kestral9999

[Kestral9999]

Wasn't really my intent to crusade the cause on the thread, but you know, the internet. Merely suggesting gender equality and I have to strap my gloves on and be ready to go ten rounds.

But that's just it, you didn't have to bring gender equality into this to begin with. I can practically guarantee that if you had posted this thread with the simple intention of providing another starting frame so as to be in line with the 4 player aspect of the game, it would have gone over even better. In fact, I'd bet that a good number of people would have seen the lack of a second female starter and begun suggesting females as the starter without your suggestion. Let the community surprise you.

 

All that being said, I'm sure you may have opened a few eyes on the real world issue of gender equality.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Kestral9999

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

But that's just it, you didn't have to bring gender equality into this to begin with. I can practically guarantee that if you had posted this thread with the simple intention of providing another starting frame so as to be in line with the 4 player aspect of the game, it would have gone over even better. In fact, I'd bet that a good number of people would have seen the lack of a second female starter and begun suggesting females as the starter without your suggestion. Let the community surprise you.

 

All that being said, I'm sure you may have opened a few eyes on the real world issue of gender equality.

Maybe, but it really shouldn't be such a big deal to suggest adding inclusivity into the game in a thoughtful, and considered way. That was foremost in my mind, balancing the roster was a secondary consideration. Again, DE does a great job, so they can keep doing a great job. Here is a way they can do that. Maybe it ultimately isn't the best way, now or ever, that remains to be seen. Thats why its feedback, and I shouldn't have to tip toe around issues like this. I'm just happy to see that this community has treated with more respect and consideration than most would have, and that is a very good sign.

Edited April 1, 2015 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[Kestral9999]

Maybe, but it really shouldn't be such a big deal to suggest adding inclusivity into the game in a thoughtful, and considered way. That was foremost in my mind, balancing the roster was a secondary consideration. Again, DE does a great job, so they can keep doing a great job. Here is a way they can do that. Maybe it ultimately isn't the best way, now or ever, that remains to be seen. Thats why its feedback, and I shouldn't have to tip toe around issues like this. I'm just happy to see that this community has treated with more respect and consideration than most would have, and that is a very good sign.

No, no need to tiptoe, I just thought it was a bit too much of the forefront of your OP when it really didn't need to be, like you were making a bigger issue out of the actual issue. But you're a different person from myself, having had an entirely different life, so it isn't terribly surprising to see that our approach on the subject would differ as well. I respect your opinion and approach, I think I'm just sick of things being done for the sole purpose of political correctness at this point. I'm a feminist (equalist) and I definitely think that female gamers could use more positive female role models within the industry that don't end up becoming oversexualized damsels in distress.

 

Again, Banshee as a fourth starter would be absolutely welcome in my book. As would most other females, I just find Banshee to be the one that fits the bill best. Her role is no longer covered within the starting frames, and she's horridly underused considering how balanced she is.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Kestral9999

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

No, no need to tiptoe, I just thought it was a bit too much of the forefront of your OP when it really didn't need to be, like you were making a bigger issue out of the actual issue. But you're a different person from myself, having had an entirely different life, so it isn't terribly surprising to see that our approach on the subject would differ as well. I respect your opinion and approach, I think I'm just sick of things being done for the sole purpose of political correctness at this point. I'm a feminist (equalist) and I definitely think that female gamers could use more positive female role models within the industry that don't end up becoming oversexualized damsels in distress.

 

Again, Banshee as a fourth starter would be absolutely welcome in my book. As would most other females, I just find Banshee to be the one that fits the bill best. Her role is no longer covered within the starting frames, and she's horridly underused considering how balanced she is.

Fair points. I appreciate your comments. Banshee is starting to make more sense to me. I main Banshee a lot, so I am down for more Banshee.

[InfiniteSuperNova]

A completely reasonable post about adding a female frame as a starting character to give newbies more awesome options and also balance the starting genders so all have equal representation. I'm sure this'll go over great. 

 

"Define "natural and fair". Please dont use sexism as your reasoning either, because thats really petty."

 

"I have to agree that you're proposing this for the wrong reasons.  Once DE starts doing "We have to make this fair" the game goes down the wrong road and the DEv's are more focused on political correctness then the game."

 

"For one, character gender in games does not matter.

Back on topic however, it's still illogical to do this for the purpose of having 2 male and 2 female" 

 

"So to summarize: gaming has different demographics, and the term "gamer" isn't a one-size-fits all adjective to describe all the types of gamers that the industry has. As such, political activism for the sake of "drawing in more demographics" to a game is flawed, because they're not the audience to begin with."

 

What the heck is wrong with you all? Someone talks about adding a woman into your vidya and all hell breaks loose. Were you raised in the monkey-fighting 1800s? There were some great comments and discussions about who would be a great 4th but they were buried under people having an aneurysm over such a 'shocking change'. This is the best comment that shuts down all the bs and also adds great meat to the discussion. Thanks for being awesome OK9ZERA. 

 

 

There was no way this topic was going to go well, was there?

 

Look, there are good reasons for this suggestion. Firstly, 4 characters for 4 friends new to the game makes sense. You don't want duplicates. 

 

Secondly, the roles of the starter frames aren't perfect to begin with. Mag is okay, Excalibur kind of sucks, and Volt is mainly used for his speed and electric shield. Ember could do well as a casting frame with more emphasis on AOE.

 

Now, that's reason enough to add a fourth starter. If we can make that starter female and have an equal starter ratio, then that's a bonus, not "sexism". Maybe next time leave your dismissive and childish attitudes at the door? No one is trying to politicise this game. There is an equal number of female and male warframes, changing the starters to reflect that isn't a dreaded act of "cultural Marxism" or whatever you want to call representation.

 

Also, don't kid yourself. Most female frames have very similar body shapes and skintight suits, where males have much more variety, and armour, in general. Not that most of you seem to mind, of course.

Edited April 2, 2015 by InfiniteSuperNova

[Valafor]

There is no point. One, warframe already does not sexually exploit women, and 2 the reason why we have 3 starter frames is because they all supposedly fill a typical and basic role in a team. Excalibur is melee-oriented, Volt is for some reason both a frame that encourages casting powers and complimenting gunplay, and Mag offers CC and team support. Unless you can think of a great female frame that does not intrude upon ANY of these roles and is completely unique all the while being new player friendly, then we can talk.

Also I fail to see how having 1 female starter frame is suddenly "overtly sexist" or something or isn't fair. If it makes you feel any better, sometimes Volt can be a little bit.... colorful.

[MagPrime]

A completely reasonable post about adding a female frame as a starting character to give newbies more awesome options and also balance the starting genders so all have equal representation. I'm sure this'll go over great. 

 

"Define "natural and fair". Please dont use sexism as your reasoning either, because thats really petty."

 

"I have to agree that you're proposing this for the wrong reasons.  Once DE starts doing "We have to make this fair" the game goes down the wrong road and the DEv's are more focused on political correctness then the game."

 

"For one, character gender in games does not matter.

Back on topic however, it's still illogical to do this for the purpose of having 2 male and 2 female" 

 

"So to summarize: gaming has different demographics, and the term "gamer" isn't a one-size-fits all adjective to describe all the types of gamers that the industry has. As such, political activism for the sake of "drawing in more demographics" to a game is flawed, because they're not the audience to begin with."

 

What the heck is wrong with you all? Someone talks about adding a woman into your vidya and all hell breaks loose. Were you raised in the monkey-fighting 1800s? There were some great comments and discussions about who would be a great 4th but they were buried under people having an aneurysm over such a 'shocking change'. This is the best comment that shuts down all the bs and also adds great meat to the discussion. Thanks for being awesome OK9ZERA. 

Take the time to read all of the comments by the people you quoted before trying to "put us in our place"

 

At no point did I say it was a "shocking change"  I said that it wasn't needed in this game because it's already here and that just adding a female frame to starters just because it's female was a bad reason.  One should be added because it should be there in the first place.