Semi-Auto Firerate Nerf - General Feedback As Well As Specific Weapon Feedback

[SwiftPotato12]

Ok, so before I start I'm going to state a few things: Don't reply to this unless you have something CONSTRUCTIVE to add on. It doesn't have to agree with my opinion, but it shouldn't be blatant flame or whining. Another thing, this is going to be a rant of sorts so if that isn't your thing you may leave now.

 

So Semi-Auto fire rate. For some weapons like Ak-Magnus this allowed us to ignore the terrible damage output because we were firing 40 rounds per second. Now semi-automatic weapons are capped at a fire rate of around 15-16. Why is this a bad thing? It renders all fire rate mods useless as they only improve the fire rate of some weapons by 1-2 now. While I agree that this was meant in the best way from DE to stop us from having near fully-automatic fire rates on semi-auto weapons it makes a lot of them useless. I have a 5 forma Ak-Magnus that used to be able to go up to level 100 in the void before becoming useless simply because of its sheer dps. Now I can barely reach 40 before it becomes completely useless. This isn't another one of those threads along the lines of 'They broke my favorite weapon, nerf all other weapons to the ground so it will be good again'. If they are going to take away fire rate, add some damage to compensate.

 

Another weapon that is hugely effected by this is Burston Prime. While I personally don't have this weapon it was pointed out by a user on the Warframe Reddit (Link here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/31u41t/semiauto_nerf_making_mods_useless/). Gilded Truth (The augment mod from Arbiters of Hexis for Burston Prime) gives 80% fire rate bonus. This becomes useless now with this fire rate nerf as Burston Prime has a base of 25(http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Burston_Prime) fire rate. Already at base it is firing below what its stats are. This gilded truth mod which would improve the fire rate to 45% (Or if you use Warframe builder from 8.57 to 10.25). This is fairly useless because of the fire rate cap. Still not believing this had a huge impact on semi-autos?

 

Take other dual pistols for example. Telos Akbolto, Ak-vasto, Ak-jagara, all have slightly below average damage with the exception of Telos Ak-bolto. These weapons because they depend on high fire rate to make their small damage per shot output acceptable. Now because of the fire rate cap they are mostly under-preforming weapons.

 

But you may ask one question, 'Why does this bother you so much?'. It bothers me because I don't have the option of weapon type A, B and C anymore, I just have A, and B (A and B being the top tier weapons, C being the mid tier weapons that are fun to play with).

 

So now the suggested solution. Rather than limiting fire rate and making your own mods useless make the weapons have a slightly lower base fire rate. In addition, to compensate for this add a few points of damage on. 12 damage per shot is great as long as I'm firing 40 shots/second.

 

 

 

If you made it this far from honestly reading all of this, Thank you. If you just skipped through it and are posting a snarky reply, I would advise you to re-read the post before you make yourself look stupid.

[Xirka]

How about you stop using macros to fire and just play the game? 

[RafaelFuchs]

i'm in favor of buffing the damage and nerfing the RoF on a lot of the fast firing semi-auto weapons myself. they took a nasty hit in potential dps

[SwiftPotato12]

How about you stop using macros to fire and just play the game? 

I don't know about you, but I can click a bit faster than most semi-auto weapons can fire right now. As for macros, scroll wheel to fire isn't any easier than clicking it just allows me to fire faster. If they want to prevent people from using macros there are many other ways to do that. Nerfing all semi-auto weapons to the ground isn't that solution.

[BrotherIcarus]

If the huge fire rate was never intended in the first place than this isn't a nerf its an exploit fix.

[RafaelFuchs]

How about you stop using macros to fire and just play the game? 

lol you don't need a macro...you can easily change key bindings to other keys to do the same function

[SwiftPotato12]

If the huge fire rate was never intended in the first place than this isn't a nerf its an exploit fix.

So what is being done to compensate? As someone stated above, semi-automatic weapons took a nasty hit dps wise. I'm all for not firing faster than most fully automatic weapons but I don't agree with having sh!t for damage because they didn't like the fire rate that was possible. If you read the OP (Original Post) you'll see that for some weapons its self defeating. Burston Prime's augment is now useless because of the fire rate cap.

[Mesyra]

I can click at 13-15 clicks per second usually when playing, and being capped at 10 clicks per second (thats what it actually feels like, cause I'm not clicking any faster than 15 and its still over sampling) on semi auto weapons is annoying as S#&$.

 

players who can click faster shouldnt be punished because of macro users, and besides, why does it even matter if someone is using a macro to click at the perfect rate so they dont over sample the weapon? they should leave S#&$ like this alone. >.<

Edited April 17, 2015 by VYR3

[BrotherIcarus]

So what is being done to compensate? As someone stated above, semi-automatic weapons took a nasty hit dps wise. I'm all for not firing faster than most fully automatic weapons but I don't agree with having sh!t for damage because they didn't like the fire rate that was possible. If you read the OP (Original Post) you'll see that for some weapons its self defeating. Burston Prime's augment is now useless because of the fire rate cap.

You don't usually get compensated anything when an exploit gets fixed. Ye sure the Burstons augment will need to be looked at again.

[SwiftPotato12]

You don't usually get compensated anything when an exploit gets fixed. Ye sure the Burstons augment will need to be looked at again.

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\/ Right here. Exploit or otherwise, these weapons still could not compare to Vaykor Marelok or Synoid Gammacor and the like.

I can click at 13-15 clicks per second usually when playing, and being capped at 10 clicks per second (thats what it actually feels like, cause I'm not clicking any faster than 15 and its still over sampling) on semi auto weapons is annoying as S#&$.

 

players who can click faster shouldnt be punished because of macro users, and besides, why does it even matter if someone is using a macro to click at the perfect rate so they dont over sample the weapon? they should leave S#&$ like this alone. >.<

Edited April 17, 2015 by SwiftPotato12

[BrotherIcarus]

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\/ Right here. Exploit or otherwise, these weapons still could not compare to Vaykor Marelok or Synoid Gammacor and the like.

I mean I agree that more weapons should be brought to the top tier and be viable to the 60 minute mark but that's a little of topic from what you stated in the title. 

[Tyrian3k]

DE went down the wrong path once again. If they don't want semi-automatic weapons with a fire rate above a certain amount, they should not make weapons that have such a high fire rate in the first place. Instead of capping the fire rate for those weapons they should have rebalanced them to have higher damage per shot with lower fire rate.

It's pretty much just like with damage falloff on shotguns. Instead of making the weapons work as they are, they just add a mechanic that completely screws up the balance of the affected weapons.

[SwiftPotato12]

I mean I agree that more weapons should be brought to the top tier and be viable to the 60 minute mark but that's a little of topic from what you stated in the title. 

Only a little off topic. My statement/argument was that weapons like this depended on fire rate to be even close to viable. Now they are just a collectors item, wasted time on both the players part and the devs.

 

I have five forma on my Ak-magnus. That was roughly 2 weeks of 6hours a day of work. Now I realize some others can do this a lot faster, but that's still a hell of a lot of work for nothing.

[Pandoran_Stallion]

Agreed. I like the feel of semi-autos, and thus used them for all my main endgame builds. Every weapon except the Amprex, Soma Prime, and Dread have been hit so hard that I've had to put away my Latron Wraith/Prime, my Burston Prime (Pride and joy there), and worst of all my precious Akmagnus, which got me through the toughest of missions. After release they've been my signature weapon- every event, every tac alert, coubtless stalker kills, my first solo endurance run, first trial, mastery tests... Now useless.

To top it off, I've never used macros. I used scroll to fire for this exact reason. It changed my bindings for almost every other game because it worked and it was comfortable.

Now it's pointless. DPS is essentially capped. Lethal torrent is worthless on any akimbo pistols. Automatics now overpower semi-autos by default. It's unfair to players who enjoy it, and worse for those who use it in high-level play. If you use a macro it's the same as semi-auto. I find fire macro to be the most justifiable but also the most heinous. If there is a real reason to use it, it's justified, but many players abuse this, and I personally find it disgusting. To make things worse, DE hurts players that do not use it by changing the game. You should not change a games mechanics to punish players for an illegitimate playstyle when it will punish players who actually play the game. You cannot control irrational actors in a situation like this. Punishment needs to be done case-by-case. It may be slow but it's the best way to go.

[SwiftPotato12]

Agreed. I like the feel of semi-autos, and thus used them for all my main endgame builds. Every weapon except the Amprex, Soma Prime, and Dread have been hit so hard that I've had to put away my Latron Wraith/Prime, my Burston Prime (Pride and joy there), and worst of all my precious Akmagnus, which got me through the toughest of missions. After release they've been my signature weapon- every event, every tac alert, coubtless stalker kills, my first solo endurance run, first trial, mastery tests... Now useless.

To top it off, I've never used macros. I used scroll to fire for this exact reason. It changed my bindings for almost every other game because it worked and it was comfortable.

Now it's pointless. DPS is essentially capped. Lethal torrent is worthless on any akimbo pistols. Automatics now overpower semi-autos by default. It's unfair to players who enjoy it, and worse for those who use it in high-level play. If you use a macro it's the same as semi-auto. I find fire macro to be the most justifiable but also the most heinous. If there is a real reason to use it, it's justified, but many players abuse this, and I personally find it disgusting. To make things worse, DE hurts players that do not use it by changing the game. You should not change a games mechanics to punish players for an illegitimate playstyle when it will punish players who actually play the game. You cannot control irrational actors in a situation like this. Punishment needs to be done case-by-case. It may be slow but it's the best way to go.

Agreed. This was wonderfully put in a way that I had trouble getting out in my anger. Rather than hurting everyone, find those who abuse it, make an example of them, and no one will abuse it again.

[Bobtm]

The simple thing is just this;  These semi-automatic weapons were not designed to be fired continuously at those very high rates of fire, however more and more players were abusing things (either mousewheel or straight up macro stuff) to achieve that fire rate.

 

The whole idea behind the extremely high fire rate is to allow the gun to never not fire when the player clicks/pulls the trigger.  Putting the fire rate so high that it goes beyond the average highest click rate to a degree allows this to occur.  Of course by the same token that same design allows folks to exploit these weapons.  Different sources will list varying numbers, but a generalized sweet spot for this cap point tends to be right around 15, aka a gun having a base fire rate of 15.

 

Edit;  Forgot to note.  There are a number of other games which also use this rate, 15, as the same standard for the exact same purpose.  So it's not like Warframe is alone here.

 

With the supposed cap in place being 15 (assuming that's correct, I've heard some folks feel like it's closer to 10) then there's nothing really wrong with the cap.  These weapons were always intended to miss out on increases from fire rate increasing mods.  People spending time looking at junk DPS calculators gave everyone the wrong idea here in a big way.

 

 For some weapons like Ak-Magnus this allowed us to ignore the terrible damage output because we were firing 40 rounds per second. Now semi-automatic weapons are capped at a fire rate of around 15-16.

 

12 damage per shot is great as long as I'm firing 40 shots/second.

 

That... 40 shots a second is far and away outside the realm of normalcy here.  Granted I don't know you so I can't make any claims on this note, so all I can say is it sucks to be an outlier.  You were never even slightly supposed to ever be able to fire 40 shots a second with these semi-automatic firearms.

 

A fire rate number isn't always indicative of what the intended firing rate really is.  On these "fast as you can click" guns, it's just a pseudo-mechanic that allows the gun to always fire each time the player clicks.  This is done by allowing the firing rate number to be above what should be reasonably possible to achieve, meaning that players never hit the cap, and never click without firing.

_______________

 

As far as the Burston thing;  Assuming that this gun really was impacted by the change that's something to chalk up to an oversight/bug.  This gun isn't semi-auto, it's burst.  Then again burst guns have always worked in an odd way in Warframe, so this is a whole other kettle of fish.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Bobtm

[Rorgal_Sina]

Never heard of Burston Prime being capped. Firerate properties of burston weapons always sucked though, as you always gained more DPS with elementals than firerate mods, as opposed to usual weapons. (Since the mods only affect the delay, not burst.)

 

Now I'm not a person capable of clicking more than five rounds per second, but I know people can reach more than ten and I'm going to respect that.

 

It's weird that DE gave those semi-pistols such as high rate of fire the first place, and players were using it as intended. DE never prohibitied firerate macros, scrollwheel, or plain finger badassery. A compensation would be nice, HOWEVER:

 

Who said those weapons were terrible with the nerf? Yeah, I mean even though you can't achieve those godly 40,000+ DPS anymore doesn't mean these weapons suck. I get it, it's pretty easy to compare things to the "other godly things" like Soma or Boltor Prime, but saying that these weapons deal pathetic damage is just... incorrect. When compared to 70% of the weapons ingame, these things, even with nerfed rate of fire, still outdamages them. The next 30% are the ones where you expect them to be at.

 

As a SINGLE Magnus user with very low clicking speed, this thing more than satisfies me. Not everything is a top tier, and while I personally would like all weapons to have a purpose, these definitely do. Many people in this game prefer tier-based balance. These weapons are market level. That's the problem of this so called "tier based progression". I don't see eye to eye with it, and this is one of the many problems- it leaves the fun weapons out of the league.

 

TLDR: I just wanted to point out how these weapons aren't "weak" without 20+ firerate, but I support some sort of compensation. +1 and good luck on your suggeston.

[Grom-84]

 Yeah, I mean even though you can't achieve those godly 40,000+ DPS anymore doesn't mean these weapons suck.

Well it does. Where will you go with less? Farm plastides on saturn? 

[LazyKnight]

The intended reason for a higher that normal fire-rate (stated by I believe DE Steve years ago), was because for the longest time fire-rate was lowered by frame-rate drops.  They were supposed to get benefit from the fire-rate mods and it was because it was fixing the frame-rate issue. It would likely be easier to prove DE had intended people to shot those semis at the base RoF. Unless one of the DEs comments: I can not find those comments made about semi/burst weapons because I am sure they are archived.

 

 

They fixed that problem at least as far as I can tell, but fire-rate does seem to be capped at 10. I would have to use video recording software to test, but other people have said it is capped at 10 and I have not found reason to doubt it.

 

Simple thing DE could do, is show the capped speed in the Ui. So people do not need to look at a wiki to know that they are capped. They do the same thing for energy efficiency mods and other things. Information in game is always helpful. 

 

Some mods like Burston Primes's stats do not make sense for a burst weapon, anyway. It would be more useful to have it give something other than fire-rate because it only reduces the time between burst and not the speed on the interval of the shots.

 

Edit: Formatting

 

Edit 2: Not really addressing anyone more about DE did say what the intended reason for high RoF, It's just lost.

Edited April 18, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Sakatchi]

I decided to level up my akmanguses up over the weekend, and they work like they always did. I can click spam pretty fast, and they hold up just fine.

 

So i dunno what youre on a soapbox about.

[DSpite]

I don't know about you, but I can click a bit faster than most semi-auto weapons can fire right now. As for macros, scroll wheel to fire isn't any easier than clicking it just allows me to fire faster. If they want to prevent people from using macros there are many other ways to do that. Nerfing all semi-auto weapons to the ground isn't that solution.

 

Oh yea, "this is going to be a rant of sorts so if that isn't your thing you may leave now."

 

The fastest you can "click" manually and keep it up for a reasonable time is around 5 clicks a second. You were firing 40 rounds a second, and you SERIOUSLY thought that was not a problem, and you kept doing it? AND you whine in a post? I think machine guns do around 16/sec (1000RPM) and just checked - an M134 Vehicle Mounted MINIGUN does 6000RPM which is ONE HUNDRED rounds a second.

 

So you want to archive half the rate of a MOUNTED MINIGUN with your semi-auto pistol, and be damned what DE original design was.

 

Yea, that is perfectly reasonable.

[Otaiken]

I'm sorry but is using a mousewheel (or macro) for semi-auto weapons a default way to play now? I must've missed that partical announcement. Is that the balance point really? If semi-auto weapons were balanced around achieving ridiculous firerate through such means then those weapons were fiercely unbalanced in the first place.

 

It was only possible because the FPS was affecting semi-auto firerate (as someone already pointed out). I sincerely doubt DE had such firerate in mind when they were balancing this weapon type in the first place. So if you feel that semi-auto weapons need a buff (and they mostly do) feel free to make a topic about that, but it has little to do with the firerate cap.

[taiiat]

being able to fire a Semi-Auto Sidearm at what is basically infinite RoF is not something that was intended whatsoever.

it's not that such a Weapon is terrible now, it's the same as it always was. just as Drag Racing between Red Lights doesn't actually get you to your destination any faster.

Burst Weapons is a totally different story though... they just don't work right, period.

Warframe has a poor representation of them - not representative of why they exist in reality. if Burst for Firearms worked the same way in reality as it does in Warframe, they would have never been invented in the first place, because it would have been deemed useless and scrapped.

They fixed that problem at least as far as I can tell

it's still a thing, Framerate just needs to be lower for it to start becoming an issue.

it's still tied to Framerate, only less Players will notice it.

- - - - -

Edit:

but-but-but... ermagurd, look it's so OP guise.

very sarcasm.

Edited April 19, 2015 by taiiat

[Sakatchi]

Yeah people need to start playing with the guns more, rather than trusting what the builder says.

 

How did you even break it that hard anyway.

[SwiftPotato12]

Oh yea, "this is going to be a rant of sorts so if that isn't your thing you may leave now."

 

The fastest you can "click" manually and keep it up for a reasonable time is around 5 clicks a second. You were firing 40 rounds a second, and you SERIOUSLY thought that was not a problem, and you kept doing it? AND you whine in a post? I think machine guns do around 16/sec (1000RPM) and just checked - an M134 Vehicle Mounted MINIGUN does 6000RPM which is ONE HUNDRED rounds a second.

 

So you want to archive half the rate of a MOUNTED MINIGUN with your semi-auto pistol, and be damned what DE original design was.

 

Yea, that is perfectly reasonable.

 

 

being able to fire a Semi-Auto Sidearm at what is basically infinite RoF is not something that was intended whatsoever.

it's not that such a Weapon is terrible now, it's the same as it always was. just as Drag Racing between Red Lights doesn't actually get you to your destination any faster.

Burst Weapons is a totally different story though... they just don't work right, period.

Warframe has a poor representation of them - not representative of why they exist in reality. if Burst for Firearms worked the same way in reality as it does in Warframe, they would have never been invented in the first place, because it would have been deemed useless and scrapped.

it's still a thing, Framerate just needs to be lower for it to start becoming an issue.

it's still tied to Framerate, only less Players will notice it.

- - - - -

Edit:

but-but-but... ermagurd, look it's so OP guise.

very sarcasm.

 

Neither of these assumptions are true. Apparently you didn't read the whole post, and because of that allow me to explain. I was not saying I would like this fire rate back, I quite agree with the change. What I was getting at is there are only a few weapons that are viable late game. I'm not an anyway crying for a nerf, but a slight buff to other weapons to make them at least somewhat comparable would be nice. If you had read the whole way through, I said that Ak-Magnus was never one of the best weapons before but said that it was an option over synoid gammacor TO A POINT. I'm fine with less fire rate, just give us a bit more damage to make it even viable to use semi-autos.

 

The only time framerate becomes an issue is when you try to run Warframe on a potato(Contrary to my name, I have a legitimate PC that can handle Warframe without lagging).

Edited April 19, 2015 by SwiftPotato12