What Frames Have Bad Or Useless Abilities That Need Reconsideration?

[(PSN)Dualisacat]

With Excalibur's upcoming changes, let's consider other frames that have almost useless (in pve, where the game actually matters) abilities like slash dash that need to be changed significantly or basically entirely useless or inappropriate abilities like super jump (secretly, I liked super jump, but let's be honest about it, it's not so hot) that could be replaced entirely.

 

Ember's Fireball. Ember is already arguably the worst frame in the entire game since Hydroid got Pilfering Swarm. Please get rid of this.

 

Hydroid's Tidal Surge. At least make it stun enemies for a while longer or something.

 

Mag's Bullet Attractor. Sure, this ability is theoretically useful and was fun waaaay back in the day to kill bosses super quickly with if you had a friend using Excalibur, but c'mon. It's bad and even more situational than Excal's super jump.

 

Mesa's Ballistic Battery. Right now, Mesa is mostly only good for low level farming. Yeah, shatter shield is a good defensive buff, but there are way better tanky frames and they often have more utlity, too. Ballistic battery is basically only useful for what, Torid? I guess? I mean you can use it, sure, but it's a waste of an ability. While we're at it, please think about rebalancing shooting gallery to maybe buff all teammates at once. Mesa is one of the coolest looking frames but everything she does, another frame does better.

 

Mirage's Sleight of Hand. Don't even PRETEND you don't know how situational and almost entirely useless this is. The augment is a waste of a slot to give that ability even conceivable usefulness that should have already been innate to it. To be fair, at least Mirage's other 3 abilities are all respectively amazing.

 

Nyx's Psychic Bolts. This ability is almost incomprehensibly bad and the augment really doesn't do enough to mitigate that. It's also one of Nyx's only two abilities boosted by power strength (and absorb is only mildly affected by it), something most builds neglect because her good abilities are enhanced by overextended (which lowers power strength even further).

 

Oberon's Smite. Wow, I can cast his ult's effects only weaker on a single target. I guess being able to use it mid-reload is neat???

 

Rhino's Charge. Please do the thing you're doing to Excal's Slash Dash with this, it's useless as-is unless you're modded for duration (probably for roar) and then it's only really a movement accelerator. Also consider making Roar a little more viable? That duration is so low that most Rhino players just opt to ignore it and focus on modding iron skin and stomp which makes them useless. Rhino can be an okay frame in high level stuff but almost everyone plays him the same awful way and he always becomes a huge anchor for the team. Roar is already inferior enough to other frame's buffs like Nova's molecular prime or Banshee's sonar.

 

Saryn's Contagion and Venom. Contagion is hilariously useless and Venom has been useless for over a year. Both of these abilities are almost never used by anyone actually playing a decent Saryn and need to be reconsidered entirely.

 

Trinity's Well of Life. Seriously, her ult already heals enough, this ability is almost useless unless you've got a REALLY REALLY dangerous eximus unit and need to lock him down but already have some other enemy Energy Vampired.

 

Valkyr's Rip Line. I love this ability, but I can't use it on my Valkyr builds because I don't have room for efficiency mods and despite how fun traveling with it can be, it just consumes too much energy. The augment mod for this one seriously should have just been an innate quality of this ability and is absolutely not worth an entire slot that would better be spent on nearly anything else. Valkyr is already a relatively low-tiered frame (at least since nullifiers happened), why not give her a cheaper or even free movement option?

 

Vauban's Tesla. Yeah, sure the augment mod makes these thing kill super low level enemies, I guess? *twirls finger in air*

 

Volt's Overload. Okay, maybe don't get rid of this, but for the love of all that is holy increase the range and damage and cast time or something. No other of Volt's abilities benefit from natural talent, so it's not worth considering on him, yet that's almost the only way to make you not be a giant glowing target for the enemies while casting this. It's the worst damage ult, and damage ults already have super harsh drop-offs in high level or late-endless content.

 

Zephyr's Dive Bomb. Another instance of the augment mod being something the ability should have innately. Dive Bomb is just a way to get back down to the ground quickly, right now, it does very little damage and almost never kills anything unless you go out of your way to do so (which is wasteful).

[Bobtm]

There's... a lot wrong with this list.  Honestly catch-all threads never go too well since you're bound to hate on something that people greatly use/enjoy and they will then consider your entire thought wrong based on the percieved short-sightedness in one/some area(s).

 

Most all the abilities you listed work fine, sure they could do with a bit of QoL in some instances, but scrapping them is a massive mistake.  That isn't to say I disagree 100% of course, we're of a similar mindset regarding Psychic Bolts for instance (ignoring the augment).  The same being true for Sleight of Hand.  I like the idea of that ability of course, it is interesting and cool, but I can't say it's useful.  Lastly I share your view on Contagion.

 

For the remainder, we don't see eye to eye.  I am either okay with or actively and greatly enjoy using all of the other abilities you've listed.

[(PSN)Dualisacat]

I said reconsidered or possibly replaced, not that I want to replace all of these. In many instances I mention ways I would like to see the ability reworked, if possible.

 

Any time anyone says something on this forum, someone disagrees, usually angrily. I don't care, I'm just getting my thoughts out there - people are free to write their own in the topic. It's a thread for feedback, not my ideas being propelled above everyone's else's, I'm just getting the ball rolling.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

Not sure if it was a mistake or intentional. Just curious wheres Nekro?

 

I've already posted about Archwing reworks lol :)

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

Right now, Mesa is mostly only good for low level farming. 

[(PSN)Dualisacat]

Not sure if it was a mistake or intentional. Just curious wheres Nekro?

 

I've already posted about Archwing reworks lol :)

 

I personally feel all of Nekros' abilities are good. Again, this is a topic to get the ball rolling for everyone to talk about how they feel, not everyone to go "I agree/disagree with OP" and for that to dominate the conversation as everyone jumps on me for the one thing I said that ticked them off and made them post a stupid meme image.

 

 

 

Right now, Mesa is mostly only good for low level farming. 

 

 

Sorry, I really think Mesa is bad! Her ult is useless in high level or late-endless content, shooting gallery is one of the worst offensive buffs in the game and you can't even control who it is going to randomly fly between, ballistic battery is extremely situational and nearly useless, and shatter shield is her one good ability. Other frames do what she does better and help the team out significantly more. 30 minutes into a T4 survival and the only ability Mesa has that is even a little useful is shatter shield, and that could be a Nova casting molecular prime, Trinity casting energy vampire and blessing, Banshee casting sound quake and sonar, Rhino casting roar and iron skin, etc.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I am only going to ask How Valkyr is in a bad spot because 'Nullifiers'???

If because it removes Hysteria God-mode, then I don't care as I cannot activate Hysteria on my Valkyr Build anyways (Max Blind Rage with no efficiency/flow 155coat w/150 energy pool...no 4)

I build around her rather Raw Effective Health....I go into Nullifier bubble and shoot or melee them...if health got low...a simple Paralysis stagger and Life-Striked finisher recoups the Health lost....Rage replenishes Energy faster than I can use it, most of the time.

With Quick-Thinking you can cheese and drop Energy (and/or Health pancakes) while reviving Trinity inside a Nullifier bubble taking excessive damage as you do not need an ability to mitigate the damage like other frames.

(Just health to energy "Circle of Life" regardless of Nullifier ... When you cannot Life-Strike and are doing a 'Heroic' pick-up some consumables make it look like you have Hysteria on...

*Admittedly I have been getting a good laugh out of Hysteria Valkyr's doing a pickup and then getting dispelled and dying when doing a pick-up....too reliantbon a Crutch ability*

[Aaira]

Ballistic Battery's useful to increase your burst, it adds 1600 base damage to your weapon's next bullet, if said weapon has a high crit chance/damage, that's going to be a lot of damage for a cheap skill.

 

Hydroid's wave power is just a way to gtfo with a bonus knockdown, it works perfectly.

[Clats01]

pretty much i only agree with mesa 1st being useless, thats where i end with agreeing with you, the rest, if your using them against the wrong enemy, eg volt against grineer/ infested then of course theres going to be no damage, also doing it more than once in the same area, there wont be anything that can carry the current since your first blew up the lights and such, does that make it bad? no it is one of the few ults that need proper thinking before casting in endless missions.

ember is the worst frame, U WOT M8, you lost all credibility with that, once again she is a situational frame and does better against infested.

Tesla, had you ever played with a loki or ash place a full energy pool of Tesla's on then, have them go invis and say leg it to the enemies, is great fun, also work with hit squads and stalker, just place a heap and bring them close

Edited April 22, 2015 by (PS4)IIIDevoidIII
Removed Rudeness

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I personally feel all of Nekros' abilities are good. Again, this is a topic to get the ball rolling for everyone to talk about how they feel, not everyone to go "I agree/disagree with OP" and for that to dominate the conversation as everyone jumps on me for the one thing I said that ticked them off and made them post a stupid meme image.

 

 

 

Sorry, I really think Mesa is bad! Her ult is useless in high level or late-endless content, shooting gallery is one of the worst offensive buffs in the game and you can't even control who it is going to randomly fly between, ballistic battery is extremely situational and nearly useless, and shatter shield is her one good ability. Other frames do what she does better and help the team out significantly more. 30 minutes into a T4 survival and the only ability Mesa has that is even a little useful is shatter shield, and that could be a Nova casting molecular prime, Trinity casting energy vampire and blessing, Banshee casting sound quake and sonar, Rhino casting roar and iron skin, etc.

Shooting Gallery provides a CC stun much like Banshee's Silence....with exception that since it transfers from teammate to teammate you don't have to have enemies re-enter the Silence Aura to re stun.

Granted if players are spread all across the map it does not provide this utility....

[Bobtm]

I said reconsidered or possibly replaced, not that I want to replace all of these. In many instances I mention ways I would like to see the ability reworked, if possible.

 

Any time anyone says something on this forum, someone disagrees, usually angrily. I don't care, I'm just getting my thoughts out there - people are free to write their own in the topic. It's a thread for feedback, not my ideas being propelled above everyone's else's, I'm just getting the ball rolling.

I'll chalk the initial discrepency there up to wording.  When I see stuff like "almost useless abilities like slash dash that need to be changed significantly or basically entirely useless or inappropriate abilities" it hits home in an area of "I want them gone" specifically due to the nature of the abilities you used as an example.  Slash Dash is getting very, very heavily changed and Super Jump is being entirely removed.  Basially that's why I took your post to be of that nature.  I do apologize for that misunderstanding.

 

As for the other part, yeah disagreements are just par for the course.  They just happen worse in these types of threads since, due to the overarching nature of the abilities being questioned, you're going to have fewer and fewer folks who's see the ideas collectively agreeable.  It's not uncommon to find groups of players who share your views on one or two abilities.  It's incredibly rare to find players who share your views on every single ability.  My note here was just along the lines of "this probably won't end well" and all that.  That's just how these types of threads play out in most every case.

___________

 

To actually go into more detail now, of course now also taking note that you're not effectively saying everyone of these abilities doesn't belong in the game;  There are some very specific cases where I heavily disagree with what you're saying in terms of ability use, in that these abilities don't even need tweaks.  Of course that isn't to say that they are forever concrete and can't ever be changed ever, but there's a world of difference in the grey area between need/want and all that subjective goodness.

 

• Fireball - This ability is not even slightly bad, it's more an ability that speaks to the nature of all that is really, really jacked up with the balancing in Warframe at the moment.  Anything that deals damage and isn't an AoE is considered (by lots of folks) to be entirely useless and that's really not the case.  Fireball is a pretty reliable damage type 1, and becomes surprisingly strong with the right setup.  Fireball can do a lot of work on its own.  It isn't its fault that ults are infinitely dirt cheap and spammable forever without drawback.
• Tidal Surge - There's not a lot to say here, we as players shouldn't expect a super long stun on a simple ability that speaks to numerous realms of play.  The only real killer for Tidal Surge is that it, alike all current "dash" moves, has its travel distance controlled by Duration mods.  This is an issue as Hydroid can be build to heavily emphasize a negative Duration build.  Basically it's hard to play to Tidal Surge's strong suit due to the nature of Hydroid.
• Ballistic Battery - This one is a lot like Fireball really.  When you get up into late game stuff, knowing you can guaranteed oneshot any individual target is a nice thing to keep in the pocket.  Paramounted by the "ready" cast having no animation, and it's a fine ability indeed.  It shines incredibly at bursting down something with a nightmarish amount of damage.
• Smite - This ability too sort of speaks to the same realm that Fireball does.  Unlike with Oberon's ult (the name of which escapes me) it can be used in supplement to current actions.  Basically it's about a playstyle variation in that way.  A lot of times the ults generally feel... well dumb for lack of a better word.  Having a swift and snappy on command stun with extra effects is very much nice and reliable.  This skill has a good deal of effective uses.
• Venom - There's not much needed to be explained here, having a very high chance to Viral proc everyone and their grandma can be a great boon when foes become increasingly armored at later play.  Venom is definitely a very worthwhile ability, especially considering it's a 1.
• Ripline - This one is funny in a way, but it speaks to alternate approaches to a situation.  Being able to ragdoll an enemy swiftly is welcome too of course.  Beyond the obtuse usability, Ripline also means that Valkyr can always deal damage at range, even if in melee mode or while in Hysteria.
• Overload - Probably the most contential of my list here, as a lot of folks outright dislike this skill.  Overload is basically just a lot, and I do mean a lot, trickier to utilize when compared to other ults, damage ones especially so.  Due to how it deals damage, it can actually hit harder than anything except Bladestorm in a single cast.  This is due to the nature of electrical damage, in that its proc is (one of the only) AoE proc types.  Cluster a bunch of foes up into a small area, and watch them cook one another on eachothers' AoE spurts.  Beyond the damage side, Overload acts as a very wide range small stun.  Due to the casting animation this stun is less usable to the Volt using it, but its a nice way to give allies breathing room should something go awry.

 

 

As an important note;  Just because something isn't listed above, doesn't mean I think its bad (exampe; Tesla).  It's just possibly one that I feel could use some minor tweaks at most.  Of course not counting above where I already clarified which abilities I do also find to be quite useless, Psychic Bolts (without Augment), Slight of Hand, and Contagion.  To think on what to change with them, it's a bit tricky.  The idea behind each makes sense, but they just don't particularly pan out in a feasible way during real gameplay.  I could try and come up with stuff, but this post has already droned on long enough for its own good.  Possibly too long actually as it's hard to guess how big it'll look when the list function does its thing.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Bobtm

[(PSN)Dualisacat]

I'll chalk the initial discrepency there up to wording.  When I see stuff like "almost useless abilities like slash dash that need to be changed significantly or basically entirely useless or inappropriate abilities" it hits home in an area of "I want them gone" specifically due to the nature of the abilities you used as an example.  Slash Dash is getting very, very heavily changed and Super Jump is being entirely removed.  Basially that's why I took your post to be of that nature.  I do apologize for that misunderstanding.

 

As for the other part, yeah disagreements are just par for the course.  They just happen worse in these types of threads since, due to the overarching nature of the abilities being questioned, you're going to have fewer and fewer folks who's see the ideas collectively agreeable.  It's not uncommon to find groups of players who share your views on one or two abilities.  It's incredibly rare to find players who share your views on every single ability.  My note here was just along the lines of "this probably won't end well" and all that.  That's just how these types of threads play out in most every case.

___________

 

To actually go into more detail now, of course now also taking note that you're not effectively saying everyone of these abilities doesn't belong in the game;  There are some very specific cases where I heavily disagree with what you're saying in terms of ability use, in that these abilities don't even need tweaks.  Of course that isn't to say that they are forever concrete and can't ever be changed ever, but there's a world of difference in the grey area between need/want and all that subjective goodness.

 

• Fireball - This ability is not even slightly bad, it's more an ability that speaks to the nature of all that is really, really jacked up with the balancing in Warframe at the moment.  Anything that deals damage and isn't an AoE is considered (by lots of folks) to be entirely useless and that's really not the case.  Fireball is a pretty reliable damage type 1, and becomes surprisingly strong with the right setup.  Fireball can do a lot of work on its own.  It isn't its fault that ults are infinitely dirt cheap and spammable forever without drawback.
• Tidal Surge - There's not a lot to say here, we as players shouldn't expect a super long stun on a simple ability that speaks to numerous realms of play.  The only real killer for Tidal Surge is that it, alike all current "dash" moves, has its travel distance controlled by Duration mods.  This is an issue as Hydroid can be build to heavily emphasize a negative Duration build.  Basically it's hard to play to Tidal Surge's strong suit due to the nature of Hydroid.
• Ballistic Battery - This one is a lot like Fireball really.  When you get up into late game stuff, knowing you can guaranteed oneshot any individual target is a nice thing to keep in the pocket.  Paramounted by the "ready" cast having no animation, and it's a fine ability indeed.  It shines incredibly at bursting down something with a nightmarish amount of damage.
• Smite - This ability too sort of speaks to the same realm that Fireball does.  Unlike with Oberon's ult (the name of which escapes me) it can be used in supplement to current actions.  Basically it's about a playstyle variation in that way.  A lot of times the ults generally feel... well dumb for lack of a better word.  Having a swift and snappy on command stun with extra effects is very much nice and reliable.  This skill has a good deal of effective uses.
• Venom - There's not much needed to be explained here, having a very high chance to Viral proc everyone and their grandma can be a great boon when foes become increasingly armored at later play.  Venom is definitely a very worthwhile ability, especially considering it's a 1.
• Ripline - This one is funny in a way, but it speaks to alternate approaches to a situation.  Being able to ragdoll an enemy swiftly is welcome too of course.  Beyond the obtuse usability, Ripline also means that Valkyr can always deal damage at range, even if in melee mode or while in Hysteria.
• Overload - Probably the most contential of my list here, as a lot of folks outright dislike this skill.  Overload is basically just a lot, and I do mean a lot, trickier to utilize when compared to other ults, damage ones especially so.  Due to how it deals damage, it can actually hit harder than anything except Bladestorm in a single cast.  This is due to the nature of electrical damage, in that its proc is (one of the only) AoE proc types.  Cluster a bunch of foes up into a small area, and watch them cook one another on eachothers' AoE spurts.  Beyond the damage side, Overload acts as a very wide range small stun.  Due to the casting animation this stun is less usable to the Volt using it, but its a nice way to give allies breathing room should something go awry.

 

 

As an important note;  Just because something isn't listed above, doesn't mean I think its bad (exampe; Tesla).  It's just possibly one that I feel could use some minor tweaks at most.  Of course not counting above where I already clarified which abilities I do also find to be quite useless, Psychic Bolts (without Augment), Slight of Hand, and Contagion.  To think on what to change with them, it's a bit tricky.  The idea behind each makes sense, but they just don't particularly pan out in a feasible way during real gameplay.  I could try and come up with stuff, but this post has already droned on long enough for its own good.  Possibly too long actually as it's hard to guess how big it'll look when the list function does its thing.

 

"They just happen worse in these types of threads since, due to the overarching nature of the abilities being questioned, you're going to have fewer and fewer folks who's see the ideas collectively agreeable.  It's not uncommon to find groups of players who share your views on one or two abilities.  It's incredibly rare to find players who share your views on every single ability.  My note here was just along the lines of "this probably won't end well" and all that.  That's just how these types of threads play out in most every case."

 

- You're absolutely right on calling this. I simply meant to get the ball of discussion rolling with the thread, but I forget how people on forums prefer getting angry and being petty to individuals rather than discussing the subject at any meaningful length. I just wanted to set what I consider a pretty popular topic! Not make a bunch of people mad because I stepped on their frame's toe.

 

A lot of these abilities are ones you could make useful, or you could just, I don't know, use a number of better things. A friend of mine said her standard for an ability being considered obsolete is that if it's more useful to fire your weapon, why even have it in the game? I generally tend to agree with this. A lot of these abilities would be balanced in an ideal Warframe where everything else isn't so unbalanced and crazy useful, but the fact is that Warframe isn't and probably is never going to be.

 

Let me go into some more depth on each ability you mentioned disagreeing with.

 

Fireball - This, ideally, would be a useful ability, but the fact of the matter is that it's not even as useful as firing your gun in almost any situation. If I can kill faster with my gun and create more useful procs with it, what is the point of this ability, or several of the basic abilities on a lot of caster frames? I agree with your last statement on this one, but the reality is that ults are never going to be better balanced and it's easier to get rid of or change low level abilities like this, shock, smite, etc. You can use this ability, but I have no idea why anyone would unless deliberately handicapping themselves to force themselves to find the ability useful.

 

I'm of a similar opinion with most of these abilities I've criticized... Yeah, they can be useful, can, but they don't compliment most playstyles that don't deliberately go out of their way to adapt them and just act as a distraction from firing your more powerful and versatile weapons. If weapons were better balanced, this could be an interesting, occasional cast on heavier targets to soften them up, but the state of the game right now is "why even use it when I can just point and click with my more powerful automatic weapon that I barely even need to aim?" Even the current slash dash and super jump have their situational uses, but I'm all for them being changed/removed in favor of more interesting alternatives.

 

Tidal Surge - Like you said, Hydroid is rarely specced for this, and even when he is, it's mostly just a faster travel ability. In most situations, you can just copter with a melee weapon at a higher speed for a longer distance, thus making this ability nearly obsolete no matter how you do it. If you don't have a high speed melee weapon and if your Hydroid is specced for duration this ability can be used, sure, but those are two massive "if's" that are almost never met unless you're trying to meet them.

 

Ballistic Battery - Like with fireball, the time it takes to actually press the button twice to even ready this up is less than the damage it will usually deal with most weapons. The set-up is more of a chore than just unloading continuous fire on an enemy, and it's an ability that would be fine in a more balanced game or ideal context, but that's not what we're looking at. This would be nice if the ability were a toggle that passively charged up a more powerful shot or something, but as it stands, it takes longer to go out of your way to push a button than it does help how much damage you deal.

 

Smite - Again, like fireball. My gun is more powerful, why go out of my way to use an ability less useful than my weapon?

 

Venom - If I already have Viral procs on my weapons (which I do), why go out of my way to use this? I'll admit I've not used venom worth a lick in a long time, and I could be totally misjudging how many enemies it can hit.

 

Ripline - I like this ability, I understand the situations you can use it in, but it's very weak and very situational for anything other than movement and its movement options pale compared to worm hole, speed, etc.. I just feel like it should have a lowered energy cost or, I don't know, something? It's a really unique travel ability and I'd like to use it more often.

 

Overload - Again, it "can" be neat, but that's so rare. Most volt builds use Narrow minded and don't bother with stretch or overextended, too, making this even less useful on top of its already very situational usefulness. Popping this thing late in an endless mode even with range extensions is basically like putting a target on yourself and you're dead before the animation is over. If you're in an enclosed space and if if you've not modded your volt for duration and if there are electronics nearby, this can possibly be better than firing your gun, but that's so, so, so situational and almost never happens.

 

Most of these abilities' uses are situational, and even in the ideal situation are not at all as good as your weapon or abilities on other frames. They require a lot of "if's" before you get them to a point where they're valuable, and just don't flow well with the current state of the game. I agree you could certainly argue that it's more that everything else is unbalanced and OP than they are weak, but that still makes them comparatively near-useless.

Edited April 22, 2015 by (PS4)Dualisacat

[Reaver_X]

ballistic battery isnt worth even using, i don't know why people defend it, maybe if it was the next 5-10 shot that got boosted then yeah, it'd be great. But only 1? not worth it.

[--Q--WaffleZ]

Well... no Hallowed ground?

[(PSN)Dualisacat]

Well... no Hallowed ground?

 

It gets rid of procs and can be useful! If you disagree, feel free to say why, this thread isn't about me, it's about getting all our ideas out there.

[Bobtm]

Spoiler tagging most of this for the sake of saving space.  Whole thing is totally relevant of course.

"They just happen worse in these types of threads since, due to the overarching nature of the abilities being questioned, you're going to have fewer and fewer folks who's see the ideas collectively agreeable.  It's not uncommon to find groups of players who share your views on one or two abilities.  It's incredibly rare to find players who share your views on every single ability.  My note here was just along the lines of "this probably won't end well" and all that.  That's just how these types of threads play out in most every case."

 

- You're absolutely right on calling this. I simply meant to get the ball of discussion rolling with the thread, but I forget how people on forums prefer getting angry and being petty to individuals rather than discussing the subject at any meaningful length. I just wanted to set what I consider a pretty popular topic! Not make a bunch of people mad because I stepped on their frame's toe.

 

A lot of these abilities are ones you could make useful, or you could just, I don't know, use a number of better things. A friend of mine said her standard for an ability being considered obsolete is that if it's more useful to fire your weapon, why even have it in the game? I generally tend to agree with this. A lot of these abilities would be balanced in an ideal Warframe where everything else isn't so unbalanced and crazy useful, but the fact is that Warframe isn't and probably is never going to be.

 

Let me go into some more depth on each ability you mentioned disagreeing with.

 

Fireball - This, ideally, would be a useful ability, but the fact of the matter is that it's not even as useful as firing your gun in almost any situation. If I can kill faster with my gun and create more useful procs with it, what is the point of this ability, or several of the basic abilities on a lot of caster frames? I agree with your last statement on this one, but the reality is that ults are never going to be better balanced and it's easier to get rid of or change low level abilities like this, shock, smite, etc. You can use this ability, but I have no idea why anyone would unless deliberately handicapping themselves to force themselves to find the ability useful.

 

I'm of a similar opinion with most of these abilities I've criticized... Yeah, they can be useful, can, but they don't compliment most playstyles that don't deliberately go out of their way to adapt them and just act as a distraction from firing your more powerful and versatile weapons. If weapons were better balanced, this could be an interesting, occasional cast on heavier targets to soften them up, but the state of the game right now is "why even use it when I can just point and click with my more powerful automatic weapon that I barely even need to aim?" Even the current slash dash and super jump have their situational uses, but I'm all for them being changed/removed in favor of more interesting alternatives.

 

Tidal Surge - Like you said, Hydroid is rarely specced for this, and even when he is, it's mostly just a faster travel ability. In most situations, you can just copter with a melee weapon at a higher speed for a longer distance, thus making this ability nearly obsolete no matter how you do it. If you don't have a high speed melee weapon and if your Hydroid is specced for duration this ability can be used, sure, but those are two massive "if's" that are almost never met unless you're trying to meet them.

 

Ballistic Battery - Like with fireball, the time it takes to actually press the button twice to even ready this up is less than the damage it will usually deal with most weapons. The set-up is more of a chore than just unloading continuous fire on an enemy, and it's an ability that would be fine in a more balanced game or ideal context, but that's not what we're looking at. This would be nice if the ability were a toggle that passively charged up a more powerful shot or something, but as it stands, it takes longer to go out of your way to push a button than it does help how much damage you deal.

 

Smite - Again, like fireball. My gun is more powerful, why go out of my way to use an ability less useful than my weapon?

 

Venom - If I already have Viral procs on my weapons (which I do), why go out of my way to use this? I'll admit I've not used venom worth a lick in a long time, and I could be totally misjudging how many enemies it can hit.

 

Ripline - I like this ability, I understand the situations you can use it in, but it's very weak and very situational for anything other than movement and its movement options pale compared to worm hole, speed, etc.. I just feel like it should have a lowered energy cost or, I don't know, something? It's a really unique travel ability and I'd like to use it more often.

 

Overload - Again, it "can" be neat, but that's so rare. Most volt builds use Narrow minded and don't bother with stretch or overextended, too, making this even less useful on top of its already very situational usefulness. Popping this thing late in an endless mode even with range extensions is basically like putting a target on yourself and you're dead before the animation is over. If you're in an enclosed space and if if you've not modded your volt for duration and if there are electronics nearby, this can possibly be better than firing your gun, but that's so, so, so situational and almost never happens.

 

Most of these abilities' uses are situational, and even in the ideal situation are not at all as good as your weapon or abilities on other frames. They require a lot of "if's" before you get them to a point where they're valuable, and just don't flow well with the current state of the game. I agree you could certainly argue that it's more that everything else is unbalanced and OP than they are weak, but that still makes them comparatively near-useless.

While we don't exactly see eye to eye with the abilities in question in a broad way, I do respect what you're saying.

 

But yeah, they overall are comparatively weaker than their respective ults generally speaking when looking at a good handful of the noted 1s here.  As this may be obvious by now, I feel that it's these skills that are in the right place in terms of effective usability, with the ults being the ones who are over-reaching due to their ease of use in terms of casting and all that jazz.  I too do feel that you're very likely right in that it seems highly unlikely that we'll see the trend shift away from the rampant AoE stuff.  But at the same time, we've been seeing small nudges from DE in the game's changes that appear to be moving in that direction.  Then again, everytime these happen it creates a mass panic situation... so there's that.

 

All in all, there's nothing special I can/should really add to counterpoint your counterpoints as they do come from a valid place in my opinion.  As covered I of course don't agree, but the disagreeance has been noted so there's no reason to turn this into a circular arguement with nobody getting anywhere.  Only thing I'll pick out specifically here is Venom;

 

That skill can hit a surprising amount of foes in one swoop, it doesn't appear to have anything of a target cap and only works off of ability range.  Of course each DoT tic is by no means a guaranteed Viral proc, and doubly having increased Duration means more tics/more chances at that proc.  I forgot to mention this ability suffers the same way that Tidal Surge does but to a much lesser degree.  Even at -50% duration it can work with a fair degree of reliability.  I have not however had the opprotunity to utilize Venom alongside Transient Fortitude.

 

This of course is a flaw, but it could be easily rectified with a very tiny change.  Just give Venom a fixed duration that cannot be modified by any mods.  It would be much easier to go with this than fixing Saryn so that she doesn't backwardsly benefit from negative Duration in such an outlandish way.  I do recognize that other games have had poison type skills that actually act alike Miasma in its relation to duration however, so that's not to say her relationship with Duration needs to be rectified.

___________

 

Considering again that I do now understand the active purpose to this thread (as it isn't about saying X abilities should just be removed/scrapped) I'll toss some small tweaks in regarding Tesla.  Needless to say, this is purely based on my own viewpoints of this ability.

 

I'll keep this simple, make it purely charge based and possibly have its number of charges be modified by Duration.  Secondly, hard cap the number of Teslas a player can deploy at any given time, with Teslas placed beyond that cap removing the oldest existing ones.  Lastly, increase the proc chance of each Tesla's individual charge uses.

 

Overall leave the skill the way it is in a general way, but tweak it so that using it as a trap is more reliable.  I haven't sat down and thought enough on the idea to throw out hypothetical cap numers or proc numbers right at the moment.  So consider it an unfinished thought at best currently.

[(PSN)Dualisacat]

Posting to say I upvoted your last post, Bobtm. I appreciate you discussing this with me a lot, and I think we've both made our points, for the most part.

 

I feel like a lot of the discourse that takes place over the game is whether everything should be brought down to a reasonable level of balance, or if we should just build on this shaky jenga tower of overpowered shenanigans. I admittedly lean more toward the latter in a lot of instances, but that's mostly because I believe at this point in the game's lifespan, it's become so heavily built on those shenanigans that they're almost fundamental to the experience. Before anyone reading this goes "lol you're just press 4 to win" or even more condescendingly brings up I play on console (hilarious, I must be neanderthal), my most played frame is Volt, who I don't even ult with and have mostly used gimmicky speed builds with (example, my video:

).

 

Abilities are -mostly- something I'm okay with right now, honestly. I just felt like something could be done about those I listed to bring them up, particularly with frames like Ember or Mesa who really taper off in late endless modes. I love about every frame in the game on a conceptual or artistic level, I just feel like some are obviously better for a multitude of situations than others. Ember is clearly meant to be a beast against infested, but infested are easier to fight against using so many other frames with higher utility on their abilities (Nova, Vauban, Banshee, etc.), and their toughest units (the only things that are going to be giving you trouble, anyway) are often resistant to fire.

 

A more ideal and thoughtful solution to making Ember more viable would be to balance how fire deals damage, have enemies scale in a more intelligent way than raising their armor as missions go on, fix abilities on other frames that makes them overpowered, etc. - but it's a lot easier to just say "gosh abilities like fireball are bad, why not make them something else that keeps up with everyone else's crazy abilities?" Fire, right now, is basically the impact damage of elemental damage types. It just doesn't end up being useful at all as the game goes on, and this is probably Ember's most fundamental fault.

[TARINunit9]

What the heck else do you except Ember's 1 to be? A water balloon?

And I think you underestimate Rhino's charge. It delivers guaranteed knockdown procs to whatever it hits. For a 1, that's pretty amazing

 

Your opinion on Vauban's Tesla pretty much shows you have no regard for the few procs in the game that actually do something (in this case Elec, which stuns for like 6 full seconds and spreads to nearby enemies for free, allowing as little as three Tesla balls to stunlock entire crowds)

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

I am only going to ask How Valkyr is in a bad spot because 'Nullifiers'???

If because it removes Hysteria God-mode, then I don't care as I cannot activate Hysteria on my Valkyr Build anyways (Max Blind Rage with no efficiency/flow 155coat w/150 energy pool...no 4)

I build around her rather Raw Effective Health....I go into Nullifier bubble and shoot or melee them...if health got low...a simple Paralysis stagger and Life-Striked finisher recoups the Health lost....Rage replenishes Energy faster than I can use it, most of the time.

With Quick-Thinking you can cheese and drop Energy (and/or Health pancakes) while reviving Trinity inside a Nullifier bubble taking excessive damage as you do not need an ability to mitigate the damage like other frames.

(Just health to energy "Circle of Life" regardless of Nullifier ... When you cannot Life-Strike and are doing a 'Heroic' pick-up some consumables make it look like you have Hysteria on...

*Admittedly I have been getting a good laugh out of Hysteria Valkyr's doing a pickup and then getting dispelled and dying when doing a pick-up....too reliantbon a Crutch ability*

Also leaves you with enough energy for rip-line AND without MASSIVE dps dropps. Still the best build.

[tris1]

None of these skills need scrapping just minor tweaks or little buffs

Fireball: damage should be 500

Status chance 100 percent

Should stack the procs for every fireball

Fire proc should stun the enemy

Tidal surge: I don't use this as I find it rather annoying more than anything else

Bullet attractor: I still use it but it does need a tweak

Once the target dies all enemies inside the bubble should get a blast proc knocking them down

Casting time lowered

Ballistic battery: I agree it is one of the most stupidest ideas they have made

It should have a massive multishot so it hits multiple enemies instead of just one so it's like a shotgun spread

Proc chance from the weapon and type of proc

Smite: I disagree it's a good skill. On cast it will give radiation proc causing all enemies around the target to shoot that target giving cc and weakens enemies damage output that are hit by the additional orbs. Against grinier it's good especially bombards.

Sleight of hand: yes it's a useless ability and no worth the cost

It should effect enemies weapons causing disarming/temporary disarm/weapons self damage/ loss of accuracy. All percentage chance random. A lot better interns of there sleight of hand and would not destroy ammo.

[Aaira]

Ballistic Battery is great at killing primary targets (heavy gunners, bombards, etc) faster, it's a big ballsy burst.

It's not a chore to use it, just keep it powered and throw it out when you need it, it's the skill you least need to think about.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Aaira

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Zephyr's Turbulence. It would be a very good ability if it wasn't bugged.

 

If I was Batman, Turbulence would be my murdered parents.

 

Where do I even start? Anyone who knows anything about my warframe forum history will know about my intense, burning hatred for the utterly stupid and broken mechanics of this ability, due to the fact that it's straight up less effective against hitscan weapons than projectile weapons. However, I won't be talking about why this ability is so stupidly designed.

I'll be talking about how even though it's stupidly designed, it doesn't even work the way it's supposed to! Turbulence isn't just stupidly designed, it's completely broken as well! I can basically just copy and paste my own words at this point.

Warframe builder lists Turbulence's outer radius for my Zephyr build at 35.5m. After being killed straight through my Turbulence twice in a Lech Kril assassination mission, I decided to test that. I placed a waypoint on a level 30 Grineer elite lancer, moved 5m away from him, and continuously backed up 1m at a time. At about 15m and onwards, I was being hit by every single one of his shots.

Turbulence's outer radius: 35.5m

Actual effective range: about 15m

Enemies with hitscan weapons are actually accurate enough to completely overpower Turbulence's accuracy debuff, making the ability almost completely worthless against all hitscan weapons. This has been a problem since the last enemy accuracy update, in which enemy accuracy was linked directly to range. Turbulence has been broken in this way for months now, and DE has diligently ignored my attempts to inform them of this bug that's utterly destroying Zephyr.

But that's not all, folks! Turbulence is also completely broken against Bombard rockets!

After doing copious amounts of testing on both Ceres and T4 Void missions, I have made a discovery that is equally remarkable and appalling. Since Bombard rockets are not hitscan, they should be deflected when they hit the inner radius, right? This is not what happens. The rocket still changes direction on contact with the inner radius, but because of the homing effect, after entering the inner radius, the rocket will immediately curve back around and hit Zephyr directly. Unless you move, the rocket will hit you directly every single time. The rocket's homing effect is actually stronger than Turbulence's redirection effect. The game is obviously trying to have Turbulence deflect Bombard rockets away from you, but fails miserably due to the homing effect.

These tragically ignored bugs have been a cancer on all Zephyr users for months now. It should be painfully obvious how to fix them, but DE hasn't for some reason that I fail to comprehend.

Edited April 22, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[BubblesTheBlob]

It gets rid of procs and can be useful! If you disagree, feel free to say why, this thread isn't about me, it's about getting all our ideas out there.

 

It also prevents knockdown, increases armor, and does a reasonable damage over time.

[Aaira]

Hallowed ground seems like it's trying to do a bunch of stuff, but ends up not being too good at any of those.

The damage is "not bad" and the proc resistance (who doesn't work on eximi, because F*** goats) is a bit useful at times, everything else's either plain useless or too situational to be useful, imo.

 

Really all of Oberon's skills are WAY more complicated than the other frames', even his 1 (which is usually the most simple and straight forward ability of a frame) has, like, 4 effects that trigger off each other.

[LazyKnight]

Chroma's spectral scream, It's a power that is just too awkward to be use-able. The augment after-burn at least gives it a range function, but it's one of the harder skill in game to aim. I would rather use any other Warframe's '1' over Chroma's. 

 

I still haven't been able to find a use for Spectral scream. It inhibits movement and the damage is outright pathetic. The only reason I found it ever has a use is for very low level NPCs or for applying a slow effect with frost. Still, it's not a great method of slowing NPCs, because it has a long animation and makes you sheath your equipped weapons.  If you want to AoE a group, it's better to use elemental ward.

Edited April 22, 2015 by LazyKnight