Has The Tonkor Rendered Ogris And Penta Obsolete?(No Nerfs Plz)

[TheBrsrkr]

The Pentagon, not really, the Ogris, yes. Both need a buff, but good luck trying to convince the community.

[alfaomega04]

Each of those three has specif uses. While the tonkor is great (as has been said) offensively and works the best for my loki and getting into the fray, I would never use for my exal with his current rework. When nullifiers are at the front, the tonkor grenades just bouce off the shiled and there's nothing you can do. However, with my modded penta, I can detonate the grenade before it bouces and it takes out the nullifier.

So while the tonkor might have the higher stats on paper, the manual detonation of the grenades makes the penta a completely different weapon.

Also, let's not forget the 2ammo clip and the that half of the time you don't even hit the target and the grenades just bouce around never actually hitting a damn thing.

[420degreequicksopeswag]

The Pentagon, not really, the Ogris, yes. Both need a buff, but good luck trying to convince the community.

Hey guys

 

You remember the good ol days

 

Back when the ogris, penta, and torid had 540 spare ammo?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Hey guys

 

You remember the good ol days

 

Back when the ogris, penta, and torid had 540 spare ammo?

Don't miss them. Now people actually play infested missions.

[taiiat]

i'm still surprised at how much AoE size Tonkor has despite having incredibly powerful Damage Scaling and a 'lot' of Ammo.

Ogris could perhaps use a new feature to make it a little more unique. all other Explosive Weapons since it, have unique features to them that make them very different. Ogris however, i don't feel quite stands out as much as the others.

you could probably talk me into 'approving' Ogris having a sort of 'cluster' type of Explosion. the Player one, that is.

though, an Augment would be alright for something like this. such as, Explosions create 3 'mini Rockets' that arc up and down to the ground again?

that would certainly be different. (so Rocket hits surface, spawns 3 mini rockets that will fly in an arc and create 3 more Explosions. think similar to how the Spawners that Boilers drop, just in a larger arc and Explode).

Edit:

Nullifier Shields

it'll take longer, but since Tonkor Grenades have very good AoE, you could just wait for the Grenades to explode, and they'll Kill the Nullifier Crewman. Edited June 22, 2015 by taiiat

[KirukaChan]

Penta and Ogris (Castanas and Angstrum too) need Tonkor levels of ammo and self damage. Self-damage is a stupid mechanic for a game like Warframe, anyway, especially since enemies can't do this to themselves at all.

[RealPandemonium]

The Pentagon, not really, the Ogris, yes. Both need a buff, but good luck trying to convince the community.

You can't really say they need a buff.  Their power is excessive, if anything.  It's just that things like Boltor Prime have way more DPS than we need, and everyone is tuned to such excess.  Back when explosives were among the most powerful weapons, they were everywhere.  At least back then they had a drawback. Now the best weapons have hardly any drawbacks if at all.  

[420degreequicksopeswag]

You can't really say they need a buff.  Their power is excessive, if anything.  It's just that things like Boltor Prime have way more DPS than we need, and everyone is tuned to such excess.  Back when explosives were among the most powerful weapons, they were everywhere.  At least back then they had a drawback. Now the best weapons have hardly any drawbacks if at all.

Ogris and Penta were used because they had 540 spare ammo.

now they have 20.

Nobody uses them.

the "drawback" of explosives back then was the fact that they could kill you instantly.

Nowadays, on top of the self damage, we have a tiny amount of spare ammo, and pitifully lacking dps compared to other heavy hitters like the tonkor.

[RealPandemonium]

Ogris and Penta were used because they had 540 spare ammo.

now they have 20.

Nobody uses them.

the "drawback" of explosives back then was the fact that they could kill you instantly.

Nowadays, on top of the self damage, we have a tiny amount of spare ammo, and pitifully lacking dps compared to other heavy hitters like the tonkor.

20 reserve ammo is a non-factor.  In the very worst case you throw down a yellow pizza and get all your reserve ammo back instantly.  People don't use explosives anymore because they can faceroll even better with rifles that they don't have to worry about spacing or aiming with.  The launcher ammo nerf was effectively a too little, too late nerf that came when explosives were already going out of style due to powercreep, making it pointless in the long run.  

[420degreequicksopeswag]

Another thing, bombard ogris rockets can home in on enemies, but the tenno version can't.

[Prof_Blocks_007]

Having used a 5 Forma Ogris and a 3 Forma Tonkor, all I can say is that Tonkor completely overshadows Ogris. Higher damage, larger blast radius and no charge mechanic making it much more responsive.

[AgentSkye]

-Tonkor has double the spare ammo of ogris and penta

-Tonkor will scratch you if you are caught in the blast radius and can be used to rocket jump. Ogris and penta will instantly kill you if they have been modded.

-Tonkor comes with grenade arc indicator

-Tonkor grenades explode on contact, penta grenades will bounce. The ridiculous bouncing of penta grenades makes trap laying hard to do

-Penta must manually detonate

-Damage wise, tonkor can reach 46466.87 damage in one shot if it crits, ogris can reach 24428, even with heavy caliber, and penta can reach 17569, with heavy caliber. Somehow if you can get the target in the blast radius of all 5 bombs, you can hit 87845.

 

-Despite the greater amount of spare ammo, Tonkor still needs ammo mutation, so there's not much practical difference, really--especially since it's much easier to miss with the Tonkor and therefore waste ammo. Anyway, max ammo isn't a big deal. See Grakata--more max ammo only delays the inevitable, and in Tonkor's case, it doesn't even delay it by that much.

 

-True, but it's not really hard to avoid killing yourself, and the rocket jumping can be incredibly annoying if done unintentionally (though this is also not hard to avoid)

 

-The Tonkor's grenade arc indicator isn't actually useful, since the weapon's low accuracy causes the grenades' actual trajectories to vary significantly from the projected arc, even without Heavy Caliber--and they do not differ in a predictable manner.

 

-The Tonkor explodes on impact with an enemy, but has the same bouncing as the Penta on other surfaces, meaning that the Tonkor is only useful on a direct hit. Which means trying to hit enemies directly, with a very slow moving and heavy projectile, which, incidentally, has horrible hit detection and sometimes passes through enemies instead of exploding. That last part might just be me, but it happens regularly to me with the Tonkor. Also, Tonkor can't lay traps either, so the lack of trap-laying capability on the Penta isn't a disadvantage compared to Tonkor. Also, Penta sticky grenade augment incoming.

 

-Manual detonation is actually a huge advantage, since it allows effortless headshots pretty close to 100% of the time if you have any idea how to use it, and even without that, it makes it very unlikely that you'll miss a shot since you can just detonate in the general vicinity of enemies.

 

-Tonkor's damage is much higher, yes, but, as mentioned above, the Penta can reliably headshot everything, and this is much harder to do with the Tonkor. Certainly possible, but attempting to headshot further increases the likelihood of missing entirely. This closes the gap between their damages somewhat. Additionally, the massive damage is actually irrelevant for like 90% of the game--only in endgame do you really need it. Elsewhere, the Penta's damage is more than enough, especially with headshots.

 

-Outside of endgame, almost any weapon can get to the point where it has more than enough damage for any enemy. Therefore, in most of the game, handling trumps pure damage and "muh deeps" every time. Penta's reload may be a bit longer, but it won't feel like it, because it has more than twice as many shots in a magazine, and almost never wastes those shots by simply... missing. Additionally, I think the Penta's grenades are faster, and may also have less drop, but don't quote me on that.

 

 

To summarize, I believe Penta is generally superior for most of the game, with Tonkor only being better for ridiculously tough bullet spongey endgame enemies. But if that's all you fight against, then yes, Tonkor is superior.

[CLERINERT]

The Ogris and the Penta were both really good weapons before the Tonkor came out. Just because the Tonkor is better, the Ogris and Penta are now obsolete? Far from it.

[RealPandemonium]

The Ogris and the Penta were both really good weapons before the Tonkor came out. Just because the Tonkor is better, the Ogris and Penta are now obsolete? Far from it.

They used to comprise at least 1/3 of what you would see equipped in "endgame," all because their damage was ridiculous at the time.  Since the release of the Soma, Boltor Prime, and all the OP weapons that have followed, ridiculous damage numbers are no longer considered ridiculous and are just treated as the baseline for weapon viability.  This is a result of people relying on OP equipment to play the game for them and also of people not caring about gameplay and desiring only maximum farming capability.  

[420degreequicksopeswag]

They used to comprise at least 1/3 of what you would see equipped in "endgame," all because their damage was ridiculous at the time.  Since the release of the Soma, Boltor Prime, and all the OP weapons that have followed, ridiculous damage numbers are no longer considered ridiculous and are just treated as the baseline for weapon viability.  This is a result of people relying on OP equipment to play the game for them and also of people not caring about gameplay and desiring only maximum farming capability.

This is a problem with warframes mod system, enemy scaling, the reward system.

[RealPandemonium]

This is a problem with warframes mod system, enemy scaling, the reward system.

DE has done their damnedest to make the problem even worse from their end, yes, but we cannot overlook the players that don't even make an effort to be good at the game and expect their equipment to do it all for them like in some AFK-farm MMO games.  

Edited June 25, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

20 reserve ammo is a non-factor.  In the very worst case you throw down a yellow pizza and get all your reserve ammo back instantly.  People don't use explosives anymore because they can faceroll even better with rifles that they don't have to worry about spacing or aiming with.  The launcher ammo nerf was effectively a too little, too late nerf that came when explosives were already going out of style due to powercreep, making it pointless in the long run.  

yeah bro!

throw down a pizza and stand on it for a few seconds to get your ammo back!

 

meanwhile a bombard one shots you in under a second since you decided to stand still

 

dying a non factor to you due to no ammo?

[Varzy]

Self-damage from Penta and Ogris (and other self-damage weapons) should not take mods into account. That way, the damage could punish players by wiping out their shields or a chunk of their health, but not instantly gib us.