May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[GroxXx777]

Okay, maybe you did.

 

Funny that. Half the screams I have read... On about oh, half the pages of this thread, say that the immunities are the problem, not full invulnerability. Evey SINGLE suggestion thing that I have read says SOMEWHERE 'Bring the immunities back!' DUH!

 

I personally am upset about Banshee a LOT more than Rhino, but then again, I play Banshee a lot more than Rhino. Rhino was boring. Press Iron Skin and 'I WIN!' He needed help with his other abilities. But in my opinion, Iron Skin was OP.

That's a big part of the problem, most people that don't want invulnerability back either didn't like Rhino's playstyle or outright didn't ever played with him. I can understand that in the eyes of other players Iron Skin must have looked OP, but it was perfect to balance Rhino's playstyle of distracting enemies, reviving and CCing.

Put it this way, I as a Rhino player spend my time in defense knocking enemies down and reviving, and whenever I see a lot of numbers burst into my screen I know for a fact that a Banshee used her ult. This could make me, Rhino player, think "Oh man that's really OP, It's not fair that she can kill that easly when I'm stuck here just knocking them down", but truth is, I don't play Banshee, I'm not really interested in her Nuke playstyle, so I really have no say whenerver one of her abilities is or not OP, that is to decide by Banshee players. I'm sure that she must have some weakness to balance out her strenghts, that's why I just don't go into the forums to complain about a warframe that I don't really care about. And in any case, a Banshee's ult can be a lifesaver in any defense mission, just like a Rhino that goes to revive his mates or distract the enemies from the pod. 

As you can see by all the people complaining, taking the invulnerability out of Rhino completely destroyed his playstyle, that was based on that, and now we Rhino players have to deal with a lot of people saying that "it was OP in the first place" when they don't even play Rhino. So I kindly ask you that if you don't really care about Rhino, let us, the ones that do, get back our favorite frame.

 

And also, the best of lucks for getting Banshee fixed.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

If you didnt know, Rhino Charge, Radial Blast, and Stomp.

You know, all those abilities that you, apparently, never put to use.

still going on about these? vs armored targets who are ~lvl 20, radial blast does 50 damage, rhino stomp, while it does lift targets a good ways up, can be used once or twice before you don't have any energy. Rhino charge is meh. It's used for escape/movement than damage really. All of his abilities need to be reworked

[Bleak_Advent]

Some shameless thread plugging, but if you have anything constructive to add to the discussion of the new weapon blueprints, check out my thread in weapon feedback.

[Zarozian]

That's mostly krumping, here's a vid of the straight up Harlem Shake.

 

As you can see the only difference between what is done in the video and the original dance is that instead of learning forward they just lean back. So this is really just a variation of the Harlem Shake which isnt that far off and, of course, they are also playing it up for laughs.

That's the basic steps of how it starts out, after that step you start doing your style and personality of it as shown as in my video.

 

Point I was trying to prove is that the rest of the world is doing it wrong, and it's offensive to call something so stupid, the Harlem Shake, a dance that has been around for so long. I honestly think it's just the media trying to pull us away from Gangnam Style, trying to get the controlling american influence back on us. In the end they created something stupid that anyone can do.

 

But uhm let's get back on topic. 

 

We're buffing Rhino and all his skills! What doesn't kill him makes him stronger!

[Unknown924]

I agree that the Rhino playstyle was completely changed. Before the nerf I used Iron Skin as a panic button or when my shields were low in combat. The shield regeneration as a side effect was a large influence on how Rhino was played. Because when Iron Skin wore off Rhino had full shields he could stay in combat and keep drawing fire away from the rest of the team.

Now that Iron Skin is damage reduction it needs to be activated when the Rhino has almost full shields to get the most out of it. It also means that when the Rhino's shields are low he needs to starting thinking about a way to withdraw from combat. A tank should not have to hide from all damage to keep fighting.

Warframes with stealth are actually a bit better off than Rhino in that regard since stealth provides them the chance to recover shields and stay in combat longer since they can break away from it much easier. This is most obvious against ranged enemies. If you can shoot them they can generally shoot you. For your shields to regenerate you have to hide behind something. That is a dramatic change in playstyle for the Rhino. It would be like preventing stealth from working if you recently took damage for Loki or Ash.

[Zarozian]

Now I want to know when the next patch is, hopefully some time today? It would be nice if they gave us a release date for Update 8 so that we can have a certain day to look forward to, that way we won't have to constantly check.

[Thor]

Today's a holiday in Canada so I doubt it'll be today (Though I believe some of them are working through the holiday anyways).

[ArsVampyre]

Well, Trinity doesn't reallty have any CC/damaging abilities.

It's a support frame. It has two invulnerability abilities, and a built-in ability for restoring energy.

And link does massive amounts of damage, and passes status effects (knock-down) to the link's target. In context, that's not overpowered. But neither was Iron Skin making the frame invulnerable. Being able to keep it up constantly would be, but that's fixed better by reducing the amount of time it stays active per use or increasing it's cost.

Charge is unreliable and gets stopped a lot by the enemies it's supposed to knock down, Blast does so little damage and over so small an area you can do better with jumping ground attacks from heavy melee weapons, and Stomp doesn't do damage. They're too weak to make up for IS being nerfed and the frame being so slow.

But rehashing the same argument over and over isn't helpful. This has been explained by others hundreds of times by now. Either you believe it or you don't. What I don't believe is that you can look at the Wiki and have an accurate judgement over how it plays; you have to actually play it to see how useful (or useless) it is.

[eXeFTW]

Now that Iron Skin is damage reduction it needs to be activated when the Rhino has almost full shields to get the most out of it. It also means that when the Rhino's shields are low he needs to starting thinking about a way to withdraw from combat. A tank should not have to hide from all damage to keep fighting.

 

This is the mentality I see on most threads/posts about Rhino being the 'Main Tank' of the game and I couldn't disagree with it more.

 

I actually had no idea Rhino had invulnerability via Iron Skin, and now that I know he doesn't I'm interested in building one. Invulnerability makes for a very boring tanking mechanic and, if I may be so bold, is flawed tanking design. A lot of people complain that Trinity still has access to invulnerability but from the sounds of it that frame has to set up a combo and is still subject to knockdowns/staggers/disruption (correct me if I'm wrong). There is energy management involved as well as situational awareness. If DE decides to tweak that as well then good on them but there is at least some degree of work involved here.

 

NOBODY should have access to a full on herp-a-derp mode button that trivializes all combat mechanics.

 

NO tank should be able to just run out into the fray and never go down. Yes, you are a tank and your job is to soak up damage and create openings for your team but eventually, under sustained fire, you WILL go down. This is why there are four of you in a cell. You have teammates supporting you with their own defensive and offensive moves and if it still gets too hot then pull out, regroup for a few seconds, then charge back in and do it all over again.

 

I do hope they buff his other abilities so the character is still fun to play (according to all these posts), but I honestly hope invulnerability stays out of the picture. It just sounds like a lot of people liked to pick Rhino because they could hit a button, do whatever the hell they wanted, and call it teamwork. Now you'll have to play smart and call it teamwork. Not exactly seeing the problem here.

Edited May 20, 2013 by eXeFTW

[Naed]

Ahh, the joys of debate and the annoyance that is "needing to sleep"

 

The issue is that all those other powers are generally not very good even at what they do compared to other options. Radial Blast has knockdown and some damage, but Radial Blind does crowd control much better on account of greater range, lower cost, and greater duration. Rhino Stomp looks real cool in use, but most of the other ult powers look just as cool but do damage and oftentimes lock down the enemy almost as well (eg Avalanche will chill what it doesn't kill.) Frame synergy sounds good on paper, but it's only really good with clanmates or friends; pugs will just do whatever they want either way with it being a crapshoot as to whether they actually shoot at the six ancients being held by stomp or not.

And when dealing with friends, old IS provides much greater frame synergy, because it lets Rhino wade into huge masses of ancients, keeping them focused on him so less durable frames can kill without having to frantically dodge. If one of your friends went down, you could walk into hell itself for fifteen glorious seconds to get them out.

Now, Rhino players can't do that unless we're talking about low level systems. In high level ones, 80% DR does little but buy slow Rhino a few extra seconds under fire, ones he has trouble taking advantage of because he's so slow.
 

The kind of crowd control he has isn't very good though. Excal does CC better, for instance, with radial blind and his greater mobility allowing him to reposition to use it easily. Ember does it better because enemies set on fire have a good chance to panic for several seconds, and because of her greater speed, greater DR, and greater energy pool. Nyx's crowd control power, chaos, is still amazing even after the nerf, what with turning huge masses of enemies into a good thing, rather than a bad thing. Vauban, although I've not played him yet, supposedly has a power that's like a rhino stomp you can use at range and which supposedly lasts longer for only 75 energy.

Rhino also doesn't have the DPS to handle the enemies he's CCing, which is a problem with pugs and when soloing. Unless Rhino is using a good gun, but anyone can use any gun.
 

The reason nobody uses the other powers is because the other powers are garbage even as crowd control. Sure some people like Mak will say it's all fine, but Mak seems to have made a career of finding a use for garbage powers like superjump or radial blast.

I don't necessarily support IS going back to exactly as it was (I favor increasing energy cost to 75 or 100 and nerfing duration down to ~10 seconds - with Rhino's terrible energy capacity, this should be enough to prevent it from being spammed.), but the temporary invulnerability was the major draw of Rhino for myself and lots of others. Not because I'm a scrub peasant who can't play as some others have implied (Rank 5 means I must have played with more than Rhino), but because the playstyle enabled by the temporary invulnerability appealed to me the most out of all the frames. My only problem is how easily spammable it was. I rarely if ever spammed it because I like having it in reserve if I run into trouble, but I can see how spammable IS would be a major balance problem.
 

True, which is why they partially de-nerfed the Hek before.

Im sorry that i cant give a long answer, because i mainly agree with your points, some of which could be condensed down to:

 

"the spamability of the old IS was bad, that needed to change. "

 

How that change is done is still up in the air, but this is a start :)

 

My main point is that rhino is not "naked" as quite a few people claim, he is still a viable frame.

 

Well, no matter how you look at it, what Mak says (and you mention) is also a valid playstyle and DE has to "care" for that group of the playerbase too.

 

Personally im a big fan of the "randomness" with which you can synergy between the frames. The emergent nature of that is a very fun thing to play around with. Yes, i can imagine that it drives some player "styles" completely bonkers :-)

 

 

You're an idiot. 5~7.5 seconds is barely enough to get in 3 heavy weapon swings at MOST, provided you have both Reflex Coil and Fury on.

 

And yes, he does fine even on Pluto after post patch. But he now PLAYS LIKE A GIMPED EXALIBUR.

 

Again, I might as well play Excalibur.

No need to name call at all, you have a valid opinion, so does everyone else.

 

 

I don't think you've actually played as Rhino.

 

First, let me say there were already multiple threads talking about IS on Rhino, what was 'wrong', and what to do to fix it.  DE either ignored them or went with the worst opinion someone had.  

 

Second, let me say that after the patch, there were hundreds of posts with serious and well thought out reasons why the IS nerf was bad, and what to do to fix it.  They didn't all agree, but they all agreed that the nerf was bad.

 

Third, let me say that the guy you're saying isn't a troll, continually said the nerf was just fine with no argument as to why, other than to play differently LOL.  That's a troll.

 

Fourth, let me say that the other skills on Rhino are either semi-broken or do not work well.  Charge often gets caught on terrain or something else, doesn't do much damage (so the things you knock down often aren't dead), sometimes doesn't knock them down, and often leaves you sitting right in front of a few enemies with more getting up behind you, all beating on you.  Slash-dash does not do that (though it sometimes gets stopped by walls).  Slash-dash can be used as an escape; Rhino charge cannot because it's unreliable.  Radial Blast, the ground punch, doesn't do much damage and it's radius of damage is very small.  It's generally beaten in damage and range by a jumping ground attack with a heavy weapon, something any frame can do and costs no energy.  Rhino Stomp has a reasonable radius but doesn't do damage, and doesn't keep them in the air and exposed long enough to put them down.  It's an inferior form of CC in almost every way to things like Radial Blind, and certainly for an Ult it's underpowered and weak.

 

Maybe Rhino was invisioned as a CC frame, but it doesn't play that way.  It isn't even advertised that way.  It does have nice health, armor, and shield values, but it's slow speed makes it more vulnerable; it takes more damage because it can't take cover as easily.  It's also annoying to play because it's so slow.

 

IS was the ONLY skill used on it because the other skills were generally worthless.  Nerfing IS doesn't make the other skills more useful, it just makes the whole frame weaker and less useful.

 

On top of this, in general game theory, reduction of the value of a particular strategy does not increase player options, but reduces them.  Reduction of player choice generally leads to dissatisfaction.  In short, it's almost always bad to nerf rather than buff; better to Buff Rhino's other skills rather than Nerf the only skill people found useful on him.

 

And that's the flaws behind all of your statements.  They're dismissive and show you don't have any history regarding the problem, nor do you have any basis for the statements you do make.  People have been, were, and continue to post what's wrong and what they think needs done to fix it, and I'm afraid that you sir, are not.

 

So stop pointing fingers.  Obviously, most people agree that the Rhino nerf was bad.  I'd say a large portion of those people think any nerf on it was bad, and that it needed a buff to it's other skills instead.  In particular, because there's no PvP and even when there is it will only be friendly, nerfing is stupid.  It just is.  And even if the nerf IS necessary, this nerf doesn't accomplish the goal of making it non-spamable, it just accomplishes making it undesireable.  Those two things aren't the same thing.  People can still sit there and run it constantly if they could before; they just don't want to anymore because it's not useful to do so.  They also don't want to stomp, blast, or charge.  They just want to get into a different frame that actually works well, and right now after this patch, Rhino's not it.

 

I'm glad they're looking at it, and I think they should seriously look at what their players, who actually play Rhino, want, rather than what people who like to give their opinions without any basis for them say.

RE: rhino play: Quite wrong. But why do you feel the need to say it ? Is that "actually" relevant?

 

RE: 1: Yes, there was quite a few threads about IS, and there was a lot of people saying "me me me me !!!!!!! "##¤"#¤"%#%%¤" etc etc in them. Which doesnt help anyone with anything. Yes, there offcourse are valid posts even in the worst troll thread.

But try and read everything on the forum while being in DE's shoes, im quite positive you wont be able to keep smiling for very long.

Personally i dont blame them for maybe having missed the "perfect" solution which was hidden in a thread somewhere.

The 80% DR is not a bad thing (ofc the current bug is bad), for a very big part of the playerbase. Remember that DE has all the stats about where and with which loadout you are playing the game.

 

Put another way, the people that are complaining about the 80% could easily be in the minority of a minority in the vocal minority which is on the forum. OR, it could be the other way around .. think about it :)

 

RE: 2: They all agreed it was bad, and did a circle jerk about it, It didnt occour to them that there might be a bug with the disrupters and such, it took a disturbingly long time from DERebecca posted about that untill people started noticing, If you go look around in random threads, there are still people complaining about it.

 

RE: 3:

Why is it that people have a "need" to point out "who" is a troll in their opinion ? Why not let the mods take care of it, its what they are here for.

 

RE: 4: Ironically Mak_Gohae answers your question before i got around to it (see the next quote)

 

RE: advertised: Is rhino advertised as being invulnerable ? I personally haven't noticed. Ive seen a heavy duty frame with the ability to take a lot of dmg versus some of the other frames. I never thought of him as invulnerable from the start.

RE: General game theory: "Almost allways" is not allways. That you seem to conclude that is how things "could" work, it perfectly fine, please dont try and shoehorn everything else into that.

 

RE: Flaws behind: Hmm, interesting, you claim that your personal opinion mixed with your experience from your pov is "better/above" what i posted.

 

RE: Pointing fingers: Hmm, where exactly is it im supposed to be pointing my fingers ?

 

RE: the rest: Is there any specific reason that "your" play style should be catered to more than anyone else?

 

No argument to why except the argument he put forth?

If you can no longer stand in the middle of a group of enemies then knock them out with your other abilities.

Powers being changed is nothing new, other folks have adapted you folks should do the same.

 

 

 

 

1It gets caught as often as SnD, learn the angles it works and the ones that dont.

2It's not meant to be a one-shot attack it's SUPPOSED to knock people down.

3I always knocks people down, if there is some lag and there is no animation showing the person down the fact that the enemy is just standing there doing nothing is proof that the knockdown is in effect.

4 What? Learn the range and dont use it so you are left in front of people....

5 You can do the same with charge.

6 At least half damage and it has the same range as Avalanche.

7 That's simply not true at all.

8 Put what down? Cause if you cant kill normal units within 9 seconds you have a problem with what you are using.

 

 

 

3 of his attacks knock enemies down... how is THAT not playing as a CC?

 

 

Radial blast's damage is utterly pathetic. Level 20 enemies will just shrug it off, to say nothing of level 30s or 40s. I'm better off using my scindo for a jump attack since it does more damage, has similar range, and can chill targets.
 

So? Avalanche doesn't have much smaller range, does a good bit of damage and chills everyone who isn't instakilled. Frost also has a good reason to use a stretch mod because most of his powers benefit from it.

Rhino doesn't have a good reason to use a stretch mod because at the absolute best, only two of his powers benefit from it and he doesn't have any polarities that make good use of it.

 

Answer: You don't. You don't make frame combos like that consciously, you watch the players come up with them on their own.

Certainly because it's nearly impossible to actually balance, considering the nature of multiplayer gameplay.
 
 

By "as many times as you're allowed", you mean "once or twice" with Rhino's tiny energy pool, right? And that still isn't going to help the guy surrounded by toxic ancients.

You'd be better off just telling us to use our heavy melee weapons in jump attacks.
 
 

So? Saryn does "spawn a decoy" differently than Loki, but that doesn't mean you can't compare the two. The problem is that when you compare Excalibur's radial blind to both of Rhino's main CC powers, Rhino comes up short. Blind stuns for longer than blast at a greater range more cheaply. Blind stuns for almost as long at a slightly less range than Stomp for half the cost.


I wasn't aware there was a chance to resist fire debuff.
 

Yeah? And? Enemies can recover from radial blast in a matter of moments. With chaos the enemies are shooting at each other, so it's hard to argue it's worse CC than RB, considering how much more effective there is.
 

With the rub that it can also be used at range.

Also, wiki isn't always right.
 

Because we're comparing frames rather than weapons here. Saying "oh Rhino can just pull out his level 30 potato'd hek with maxed damage and multishot to deal with the enemy" means little, because any frame can do that. It's not a strength of Rhino, it's a strength of any warframe with a gun. Which is all of them. That uberhek is going to be just as effective in the hands of Excal, Rhino, Frost, or whoever.
 
Because that "some damage" is utterly pathetic in mid to high level systems. I tried it in wave 10 on Io, so midlevel enemies, and my gram's normal swings did more damage with about the same area effect.

Also, your logic on this "silly response" is suspect. All the other warframes generally have niches they're good at. Rhino's niches - tanking and CC, are both now done better by other frames.

"They are there to be used, why arent you using them?
Using those move made this Iron Skin adjustment have little effect on my play style so finding use for those powers was, apparently, a benefit."

I'm not using them because they're trash. Why play Rhino when his CC is subpar compared to others, he's slow as molasses, and the only unique thing about him is gone?

It's nice that you find "use" for garbage powers, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still garbage.

Quick sidenote: I never said that his other skills are strong enough, i said they are viable options in a synergy/emergent setting.

 

Also, just so there isnt any doubt, i dont consider the current "state" of the skills (on all frames to be more than 70-ish% done), there is a reason we are in beta afterall :)

 

Quit feeding the troll.
He wont see logic.

Why is it that people have a "need" to point out "who" is a troll in their opinion ? Why not let the mods take care of it, its what they are here for.

 

 

OKAY. I'M NOT SURE HOW MUCH MORE CLEARER WE CAN MAKE THIS; WE WANT HIS IRON SKIN BACK TO THE WAY IT WAS BEFORE THE NERF!

 

IS THAT SO HARD FOR YOU PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND?

Give a reason for making it "exactly" like it was before?

 

 

Can't tell if Mak is number 5 or 6......

Why is it that people have a "need" to point out "who" is a troll in their opinion ? Why not let the mods take care of it, its what they are here for.

 

 

[K1LLZ0NE]

This is the mentality I see on most threads/posts about Rhino being the 'Main Tank' of the game and I couldn't disagree with it more.

 

I actually had no idea Rhino had invulnerability via Iron Skin, and now that I know he doesn't I'm interested in building one. Invulnerability makes for a very boring tanking mechanic and, if I may be so bold, is flawed tanking design. A lot of people complain that Trinity still has access to invulnerability but from the sounds of it that frame has to set up a combo and is still subject to knockdowns/staggers/disruption (correct me if I'm wrong). There is energy management involved as well as situational awareness. If DE decides to tweak that as well then good on them but there is at least some degree of work involved here.

 

NOBODY should have access to a full on herp-a-derp mode button that trivializes all combat mechanics.

 

NO tank should be able to just run out into the fray and never go down. Yes, you are a tank and your job is to soak up damage and create openings for your team but eventually, under sustained fire, you WILL go down. This is why there are four of you in a cell. You have teammates supporting you with their own defensive and offensive moves and if it still gets too hot then pull out, regroup for a few seconds, then charge back in and do it all over again.

 

I do hope they buff his other abilities so the character is still fun to play (according to all these posts), but I honestly hope invulnerability stays out of the picture. It just sounds like a lot of people liked to pick Rhino because they could hit a button, do whatever the hell they wanted, and call it teamwork. Now you'll have to play smart and call it teamwork. Not exactly seeing the problem here.

 

You admit to not actually using him, so please don't crowd the thread.

[Naed]

Now I want to know when the next patch is, hopefully some time today? It would be nice if they gave us a release date for Update 8 so that we can have a certain day to look forward to, that way we won't have to constantly check.

With the way the community reacted to the delay around Vauban and update last week, i doubt we are going to get a date for anything before it is practically here.

[GroxXx777]

This is the mentality I see on most threads/posts about Rhino being the 'Main Tank' of the game and I couldn't disagree with it more.

 

I actually had no idea Rhino had invulnerability via Iron Skin, and now that I know he doesn't I'm interested in building one. Invulnerability makes for a very boring tanking mechanic and, if I may be so bold, is flawed tanking design. A lot of people complain that Trinity still has access to invulnerability but from the sounds of it that frame has to set up a combo and is still subject to knockdowns/staggers/disruption (correct me if I'm wrong). There is energy management involved as well as situational awareness. If DE decides to tweak that as well then good on them but there is at least some degree of work involved here.

 

NOBODY should have access to a full on herp-a-derp mode button that trivializes all combat mechanics.

 

NO tank should be able to just run out into the fray and never go down. Yes, you are a tank and your job is to soak up damage and create openings for your team but eventually, under sustained fire, you WILL go down. This is why there are four of you in a cell. You have teammates supporting you with their own defensive and offensive moves and if it still gets too hot then pull out, regroup for a few seconds, then charge back in and do it all over again.

 

I do hope they buff his other abilities so the character is still fun to play (according to all these posts), but I honestly hope invulnerability stays out of the picture. It just sounds like a lot of people liked to pick Rhino because they could hit a button, do whatever the hell they wanted, and call it teamwork. Now you'll have to play smart and call it teamwork. Not exactly seeing the problem here.

 

 

 

"I actually had no idea Rhino had invulnerability via Iron Skin, and now that I know he doesn't I'm interested in building one." Then build a frost. The problem with Iron Skin is that it was spamable, that needed to be fixed, I agree that no tank should be able to keep tanking forever, but Iron Skin didn't lasted forever, because it had an energy requierement, and increasing it (or giving it a cooldown for that matter) would make so that Rhino players have to plan a little more in advance instead of spamming 2, I agree with that. 

Now just wanting to take out Rhino's main ability because "trivializes all combat mechanics" is something diferent; Iron skin gave you the freedom for stop caring about your HP and shields for a moment, so you can care about your teammates or your pod completely, making it so much interesting to play. It's the perfect oposite to "not caring about anything anymore", is caring about everything around you instead of your own HP.

We, the Rhino players, find that interesting and fun, and if you think that "Invulnerability makes for a very boring tanking mechanic" you are totally free to pick another frame and play your way.

Edited May 20, 2013 by GroxXx777

[Cpl_Facehugger]

This is the mentality I see on most threads/posts about Rhino being the 'Main Tank' of the game and I couldn't disagree with it more.

 

I actually had no idea Rhino had invulnerability via Iron Skin, and now that I know he doesn't I'm interested in building one. Invulnerability makes for a very boring tanking mechanic and, if I may be so bold, is flawed tanking design. A lot of people complain that Trinity still has access to invulnerability but from the sounds of it that frame has to set up a combo and is still subject to knockdowns/staggers/disruption (correct me if I'm wrong). There is energy management involved as well as situational awareness. If DE decides to tweak that as well then good on them but there is at least some degree of work involved here.

 

NOBODY should have access to a full on herp-a-derp mode button that trivializes all combat mechanics.

 

NO tank should be able to just run out into the fray and never go down. Yes, you are a tank and your job is to soak up damage and create openings for your team but eventually, under sustained fire, you WILL go down. This is why there are four of you in a cell. You have teammates supporting you with their own defensive and offensive moves and if it still gets too hot then pull out, regroup for a few seconds, then charge back in and do it all over again.

 

I do hope they buff his other abilities so the character is still fun to play (according to all these posts), but I honestly hope invulnerability stays out of the picture. It just sounds like a lot of people liked to pick Rhino because they could hit a button, do whatever the hell they wanted, and call it teamwork. Now you'll have to play smart and call it teamwork. Not exactly seeing the problem here.

Don't take this the wrong way, man, but old IS wasn't a "herp a derp mode button" unless spammed. It sounds really OP on paper "fifteen seconds of invincibility? And I can't be staggered/disrupted/poisoned? ZOMG OP", but in practice it really isn't. It adds a huge number of potential options to Rhino - for instance, it makes a melee build actually viable, since he can now actually get to within range to use his melee weapon in high level systems. It turns Rhino into the team medic by letting him run into even the diciest cloud of disruptors to revive a fallen teammate. And even then, it still forced players to pay attention to their status - if that IS goes down when you're surrounded by a half dozen disruptors, better hope you've got enough energy for another cast and that you can pop it off before the tentacles hit, otherwise welp.

Also, "playing it smart and calling it teamwork" is what every frame has to do. Even pre-nerf Rhino had to play it smart by knowing when to IS. The difference here is that while originally Rhino could actually contribute something of value to the team (ability to rez even in extremely dicey situations and lock down large numbers of enemies to give other players breathing room), with the switch to DR, this is no longer possible.

[SandDune]

I don't see anything really up about Paris' unmentioned ninja-nerf to crit rate.. is this actually intended or a bug caused somehow by the changes done to Paris? (It isn't in patch notes)  Same with the Thunderbolt's AoE size/original damage. (from what I understand this got nerfed to not add on other mod damage to the explosion, but the base damage from what I hear is a lot less, and the AoE size got shrunk as well.... though I don't have a Thunderbolt mod to test it myself.. wish I did so I could give better feedback, but perhaps someone else can on this.)

[Unknown924]

NOBODY should have access to a full on herp-a-derp mode button that trivializes all combat mechanics.

In that case remove stealth from the game since it allows players to trivialize combat by completely avoiding it. At the same let all enemies shoot through Frost's dome since it trivializes all ranged combat. Even better, remove Chaos completely since that trivializes combat while it is active.

I could continue but I hope my point is clear: There are many abilities in Warframe that trivialize combat in one way or another. Iron Skin was just one of many with the main problem being that it could be used constantly. As people are saying, remove the ability to spam Iron Skin and it would be balanced. Heck, just putting Iron Skin as the fourth ability and moving the other two down a level should solve the problem.

[K1LLZ0NE]

What people don't seem to understand is that Irons Skin wasn't something like "Wave starts, go Iron Skin and don't stop until the wave is over".  This is how people are treating it even though this is not and never was the case.  Abilities like Sound Quake do exactly this, but no body is complaining. 

[SmokeBraid]

NOBODY should have access to a full on herp-a-derp mode button that trivializes all combat mechanics.

 

This. A thousand times, this.

[K1LLZ0NE]

In that case remove stealth from the game since it allows players to trivialize combat by completely avoiding it. At the same let all enemies shoot through Frost's dome since it trivializes all ranged combat. Even better, remove Chaos completely since that trivializes combat while it is active.

I could continue but I hope my point is clear: There are many abilities in Warframe that trivialize combat in one way or another. Iron Skin was just one of many with the main problem being that it could be used constantly. As people are saying, remove the ability to spam Iron Skin and it would be balanced. Heck, just putting Iron Skin as the fourth ability and moving the other two down a level should solve the problem.

 

Exactly.  I would be okay with a move to 100 energy cost for Iron Skin, although not exactly ideal.  Personally I feel that Iron Skin should be 75, due to Rhino's energy pool of only 150.

[Thor]

I'd like to note a couple things here.

 

1. There's a group of you who have been repeatedly posting and demanding that the Rhino nerf simply be reversed. I'm not sure if your goal is to remind DE that your opinion exists or to drown out other peoples' opinions, but either way I'd appreciate it if you stopped. I promise that DE is keenly aware of your opinion, and posting repeatedly isn't going to change anything.

 

2. Opinion-dismissing for "trolling" or other reasons is silly. Please cut that out. You're passionate about the issue and that's fine, but petty hostility gets us nowhere. If you think someone is trolling, then please report it. Otherwise there's no good reason to dismiss someone's opinion just because it's different from yours.

 

As always, please keep things civil.

[Eversor]

 

 

NOBODY should have access to a full on herp-a-derp mode button that trivializes all combat mechanics.

 

 

Are we all really sure of this? Can we destroy snow globe too following this logic? And Trinity´s Link? and Nyx´s Chaos?

 

This examples are herpyderpy buttons too. I mean, if we are gonna play this game... let all frames play, right?

 

I really dont like the idea of invulnerability, but lets face it guys, with honor, If Rhino gets tweaked on his IS, these other 3 examples must be tweaked too. 

Edited May 20, 2013 by Eversor

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Are we all really sure of this? Can we destroy snow globe too following this logic? And Trinity´s Link? and Nyx´s Chaos? 

And invisibility skills, and "kill everything with a push of the button" skills, and moult/decoy

[Vorpalstryke]

NOBODY should have access to a full on herp-a-derp mode button that trivializes all combat mechanics.

 

So... you want to remove all the ultimate abilities from the game? Because that's what all the room-clearing moves do - they make you invincible in a sense too because you kill pretty much everything around you so you don't take damage. I played a defense yesterday that was basically 2 Banshees Soundquaking back and forth and I finally got a few kills in when I caved and joined the ultimate spam and started punching my Miasma whenever I saw an enemy. You get good teammates where people play well and use their abilities to augment their combat and you get bad teammates when all they do is spam *any* ability. It's not the ability's fault, it's the dumb person who spams it instead of actually playing the game the way it was meant to be played. But it's not a big deal because you just finish the mission and join a different group, easy fix. No need to nerf anyone. 

Edited May 20, 2013 by Vorpalstryke

[Phoenix86]

Ofc Iron Skin was the first, i already said a dozen times: IF YOU TOUCH ONE, YOU HAVE TO TOUCH ALL OF THEM!

 

This means review also:

 

- Link + Energy Vampire combo (problem is not Link, Link is fine if alone, it's the sinergy with EV that is OP)

- Snow Globe

- Stealth

[Mak_Gohae]

still going on about these? vs armored targets who are ~lvl 20, radial blast does 50 damage, rhino stomp, while it does lift targets a good ways up, can be used once or twice before you don't have any energy. Rhino charge is meh. It's used for escape/movement than damage really. All of his abilities need to be reworked

 

How much health do Grineer lancers have? Cause if it's 100 that means half damage.