There Will Never Be A Good Boss Fight In This Game.

[Rakosta_Kai]

As long as you have a game that relies on some portion of it's revenue to come from in game item purchases that   aren't purely cosmetic, you will have power creep.

As long as you have power creep, you will have power imbalances over time.

The moment they allowed trade for plat, they deepened that divide...

 

So we find ourselves in the odd position of needing to make the damage system we have work or modifying it without nerfs.

The only ways to do that would be to create content (or variations) that mitigates the power imbalances or to sync players to force the content to be relevant to them.

The other route would be to create mechanics that negate the relative power balance in favor of the obverse ttk/ttl relationship (the longer it takes to kill, the more likely it kills you)

 

Ergo, the OP's comments... Cheap tactics to draw fights out timewise as opposed to relevant content that can soak up the damage we pour into it.

 

Funnily enough,  DMG 1.0 worked better in that respect due to scaling mob HP and armor vs our own damage limitations.

 

Changes to resolve the issues we have now will require some variation of the below:

 

  Brand new content that is balanced against our current dps capability

  Modified difficulties of older content =Trials, Nightmare Trials, Tactical Alerts are examples but we need a lot more of a difficulty slider as well.

 

Optionally, we could also see:

"Syncing" which would automatically level players(or enemies) up or down to the mission/group level to keep the content challenging.

 

 

 

DE, IGNORE THE PLAYERBASE, go in, work on Damage 3.0. Get RID of the damage-scaling mods to have damage scale with weapon level and turn the elemental mods into ones that add a flat-but-realistic amount of elemental damage to weapons.

 

This is probably the absolute worst thing DE could do to resolve the issues present in the game right now...

 

Damage 3.0, etc isn't a solution that won't impact DE's bottom line because nerfing what some people pay for makes them not want to pay for more stuff.

 

I, personally, would love to see DE go through and type, tier, and balance every weapon and skill in the game.

But I also recognize that the chances are very good that it would alienate some of the paying customers.

 

That's not good in a F2P game.

 

 

 

[Burnthesteak87]

Check this, maybe you'll find what you'd like.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/451204-assassination-missions-rework/

Edited June 8, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Heavy progression based games rarely have good boss fights.

However, I contend that Lephantis isn't terrible.

[Burnthesteak87]

Heavy progression based games rarely have good boss fights.

However, I contend that Lephantis isn't terrible.

Just immune to melee damage.

[vaugahn]

As long as you have a game that relies on some portion of it's revenue to come from in game item purchases that   aren't purely cosmetic, you will have power creep.

 

Not necessarily. Remember, Warframes runs on a pay2skip model. 

[fatpig84]

He's talking about making bosses with mechanics that require actual player skill instead of depending on abilities or equipment stats....

 

Ain't gonna happen.

Because Warframe has already chosen the action RPG/TPS route.

Ala Diablo 3. 

Hence farming is at it's core.

You cannot avoid that.

 

Boss fights can have interesting mechanics, but it will still be a number's game. Even if abilities and equipment stats are heavily cap. Sure I can kill him with my braton but if I am going to run something over and over again, I will take the most efficient route.

 

For example the boss has a damage cap of 2000 damage and my Boltor Prime does 2.2k damage. I will still take the Boltor P. Even though there is slight overkill. Why should I take the MK1 Braton which struggles to reach 800 damage per bullet ?

Not withstanding that damage cap is a VERY poor mechanic, since it wrecks weapons like Opticor, bows and sniper rifles.

 

 

I had melee juggernaut with Ash and Excal for the fun of it (valkyr / chroma are scrubs, if ya gonna melee, do it with someone less tanky yo). But ultimately I want to get the pods fast, so I go Mirage + Torid.

Edited June 8, 2015 by fatpig84

[JDP04]

umm even if DE make gigantic agile massive dragon boss, people will find the easiest way to farm it.

Like invis loki, slowva, banish+volt shield, etc.

And we still don't have proper evasive move to start with, all we got is the slow roll(except mirage) with DR lol.

[Morec0]

This is probably the absolute worst thing DE could do to resolve the issues present in the game right now...

 

Damage 3.0, etc isn't a solution that won't impact DE's bottom line because nerfing what some people pay for makes them not want to pay for more stuff.

 

I, personally, would love to see DE go through and type, tier, and balance every weapon and skill in the game.

But I also recognize that the chances are very good that it would alienate some of the paying customers.

 

That's not good in a F2P game.

 

You say nerfing, I say balancing. Obviously the numbers of the regular enemies, and even bosses, would be modified to fit as well - a level 30 weapon will still be murder against a level 1 mob. Just because the numbers go down doesn't mean the effectiveness is changed - I cite the WoD Stat Squish as evidence of that.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Morec0

[Rakosta_Kai]

Not necessarily. Remember, Warframes runs on a pay2skip model. 

 

With no disrespect intended...

 

I don't think you understand what Power Creep actually is... If you did, you would know that your comment is completely wrong.

 

Power Creep exists because Warframe runs on a pay2skip model.

 

 

Power Creep exists to make new items/content marketable... That marketability is intended to incite purchases.

 

While it's ideal for the player to go and buy plat to power that purchase (or purchase outright in the case or Prime access), and expenditure of plat into any system ultimately feeds the bottom line eventually.

 

The "pay2skip" model you speak of is one and the same with the "pay for convenience" model... There is no difference.

 

Someone buys the weapon with plat > plat may get purchased, Definitely removes plat from circulation.

or

Someone buys the parts with plat > plat may get purchased, Definitely removes plat from circulation.

or

Someone rushes the build with plat > plat may get purchased, Definitely removes plat from circulation.

 

 

Power Creep exists to get players to spend that plat in order to acquire the item.

 

Were the items merely and purely cosmetic, Power Creep would not exist.

 

I hope that makes more sense.

[Dawnstrider]

 

 

And hence why the word "BETA" is not a false statement. There are changes being made and added constantly.

 

The Beta tag has been removed from all branding and it is not filed as "Early Access" in Steam when rightfully it should be. So to refer to Warframe as truly still being beta is dubious at best.

[KarmicRex]

Man, we are in the community that try to argue that MESA IS WEAK. We don't need a great boss fight because the community will reject it. They just want to press one button.

[MechaGent]

Heavy progression based games rarely have good boss fights.

However, I contend that Lephantis isn't terrible.

 

I would agree, if only that minx of a Corpus head didn't bug out sometimes. Personally, I really like Sargas Ruk's fight. The AI's tight enough that you don't really sit around waiting, he can still kill you if you take the fight too casually, and he's still a relatively quick run-through.

[undernown]

For a shooter i'd say their doing pretty good job with the bosses.

For an mmo its far less spectacular.

So i'd say it depends on what you compare Warframe with.

That aside, part of the problem is the accuracy buff that was introduced shortly after archwing came out.

Another portion is the dodge and parkour part feeling slow, hence why most people copter. Parkour 2.0 aims to change thst, and they mentioned looking at the dodge moves as well.

I also have high hopes for the new Tyl Regor boss fight. He's fast and melee based from what i saw from his animation previews. I thing doging is going to be pprtant for that fight, just like standing still is dangerous with a manic around.

[Rakosta_Kai]

You say nerfing, I say balancing. Obviously the numbers of the regular characters, and even bosses, would be modified to fit as well - a level 30 weapon will still be murder against a level 1 mob. Just because the numbers go down doesn't mean the effectiveness is changed - I cite the WoD Stat Squish as evidence of that.

 

You can't balance without nerfs.. That presumes that there are no high side outliers.

If there weren't high and low side outliers, everything would be balanced and this would be a non-issue.

 

We both know that's not the case...

 

The  WoD stat squish you speak of was one part of dozens of pages of changes made for that expansion and every class got nerfed and buffed to differing degrees.

 

I agree that the squish itself made things simpler by reducing variables and lowering enemies capacities to compensate for the changes.

 

But it didn't create or impose balance... That was the nerfs and buffs.

 

Likewise, you wouldn't need "DMG 3.0" to remove offending mods...

But you would also still have the same balance issues and power creep after doing so... Only with higher ttk.

 

To use your WoD reference:

The better question would be how to get a lvl 100 toon to run around the Hinterlands in i700 gear without being able to OHK everything in sight.

 

That's the challenge...

 

That's the problem that Warframe has.

 

It's why I mentioned alternate difficulty levels, new content,  and syncing.

 

"DMG 3.0" ain't gonna get it.

[Stalker]

Does anybody remember how in "The New Strange" there was a Chroma that was possible to fight? What if they made more bosses like that? Stalker is a deadly boss, especially when you're alone. If there was like a Stalker Horde (Or whatever their race/people were called; I don't remember.) as a boss? That would be pretty damn challening as they can use Dispel, Teleport, Absorb, and other moves that us guys can.  I think it'd be pretty cool. Maybe it's just me.

I feel like this would be a really hard boss fight, if it were in the game. Nobody going invisible, no blessing, and unless you're like spamming rhino stomp or reckoning, there is no way to keep em still (As far as I know.)


k

[TARINunit9]

Sargas Ruk and Lephantis are easily "good boss fights"

 

I took down Ruk back before I had any potatoes in my weapons, and it was a fun puzzle boss that rewarded reading his patterns. Lephantis is just such an awesome, massive spectacle, who is immune to most frame abilities in LOGICAL ways (too big for Snow Globe, too tall for Hysteria, etc.)

[Aimop95]

People like to gimp themselves but they also want to take their best gear and have struggles with it, i.e doing a Terramorphous raid in BL2 with 4 level 50 teammates but still have chances of losing even with level 50 gear if done carelessly. OP might also imply the game has a very low skill cap where the same tactic works pretty much everywhere and on the majority of everything with only a few changes to tactics here and there when in comparison to games like Witcher 3 or Bloodborne where X tactic won't always work on the same enemies.

problem is, in witcher 3 and bloodborne, you don't have guns that shred enemies. In warframe, we do. Also stamina plays a much more important factor and you cannot just coptor away from enemies when things get tough.

[Gelkor]

Outside of the damage and powers issue, DE has no idea how to code a complex AI, see any large enemy in the game.

 

It's not necessarily that they don't know how it's that by and large, players don't actually want smart AI like they think they do.

 

http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/76972636953/game-development-myths-players-want-smart

[TARINunit9]

It's not necessarily that they don't know how it's that by and large, players don't actually want smart AI like they think they do.

 

http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/76972636953/game-development-myths-players-want-smart

That article's title takes itself out of context, and you, Gelkor, are falling into the same trap

 

As the article eventually states at the end of the page, it's not that players say they want smarter AI and then complain when the AI gets smarter. It's that players hate situations where they start getting flanked, without any clear indication that they even CAN get flanked. Once the AI started shouting military jargon to each other, there was more feedback

 

I also don't feel the guys running the article did enough case studies. It seems that they only tested the same rooms (a hallway followed by a flanking scenario test) once apiece on each player. They didn't give players enough tries to learn "oh, last time I was in this room I got flanked; I should watch my 9-o-clock this time"

[Gelkor]

That article's title takes itself out of context, and you, Gelkor, are falling into the same trap

 

As the article eventually states at the end of the page, it's not that players say they want smarter AI and then complain when the AI gets smarter. It's that players hate situations where they start getting flanked, without any clear indication that they even CAN get flanked. Once the AI started shouting military jargon to each other, there was more feedback

 

I also don't feel the guys running the article did enough case studies. It seems that they only tested the same rooms (a hallway followed by a flanking scenario test) once apiece on each player. They didn't give players enough tries to learn "oh, last time I was in this room I got flanked; I should watch my 9-o-clock this time"

 

I still think it's an annoying misnomer to flippantly say things like "the developers are too stupid to make a good AI."  It's a very common philosophy in game development to stick to simple AI because players enjoy slaughtering things wholesale, it's not that "DE doesn't know how to do it"  It's that they don't want to do it.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Gelkor

[vaugahn]

It's not necessarily that they don't know how it's that by and large, players don't actually want smart AI like they think they do.

 

http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/76972636953/game-development-myths-players-want-smart

 

It's not even really that either.

 

Our AI isn't bad. It runs into map pathing issues on occasion, but if you actually watch during a fight they do most of the things people ask for when they propose better AI. They use cover, try to flank and flush you out, and group up behind/around defensive and buffing units. 

 

They just die so quick none of that matters.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

That article's title takes itself out of context, and you, Gelkor, are falling into the same trap

 

As the article eventually states at the end of the page, it's not that players say they want smarter AI and then complain when the AI gets smarter. It's that players hate situations where they start getting flanked, without any clear indication that they even CAN get flanked. Once the AI started shouting military jargon to each other, there was more feedback

 

I also don't feel the guys running the article did enough case studies. It seems that they only tested the same rooms (a hallway followed by a flanking scenario test) once apiece on each player. They didn't give players enough tries to learn "oh, last time I was in this room I got flanked; I should watch my 9-o-clock this time"

No, it says the players say they want smarter AI and then complain when the AI gets smarter. It also said no one cared when they added audible cues; players were just as upset and annoyed.

You may believe the author needed to do more testing, and that's probably true. But that doesn't invalidate the evidence he provides and, honestly, I doubt this would happen.

But then, it wouldn't matter anyway (at high levels, the ones where people ask for more challenge) because in this game, no AI could possibly survive a well-equipped player with any clue of what he's doing.

[(XBOX)GOAT Spartan]

Warframe is not a mechanically intensive game. You don't need skills to be successful, what you only need is good gear and proper mods. This is not DMC or Ninja gaiden where you need to dodge, block and choose the right move to punish your enemies. You can't make a interesting, engaging and challenging boss fight in a game when the player can just press one bottom and everything explode. Those so called BS like invincibility, damage caps and bullet sponge are the only way to make boss last more than one second. If you are expecting good boss fight in this game, go find something else.

 

would you like another massive enemy buff? to where they can one shot you….. then by all means, keep *@##$ing and maybe your wishing will come true. the war frames are not so "OP" as you so clearly make out, the enemy can kick your &#! without dropping your shields. if you want more bosses with better tactics and moves, then i agree with you. but if you want another massive buff, thats where the line must stop. at least from what I've seen, the war frames are now all weak. with the weak ones being so flimsy that you could just touch em and game over. 

 

we need more bosses with more tactics changing and better moves for them to use, but not another massive buff. 

[victor_victory]

would you like another massive enemy buff? to where they can one shot you….. then by all means, keep *@##$ing and maybe your wishing will come true. the war frames are not so "OP" as you so clearly make out, the enemy can kick your ! without dropping your shields. if you want more bosses with better tactics and moves, then i agree with you. but if you want another massive buff, thats where the line must stop. at least from what I've seen, the war frames are now all weak. with the weak ones being so flimsy that you could just touch em and game over.

we need more bosses with more tactics changing and better moves for them to use, but not another massive buff.

Are we playing the same game?

For the record I made this post because some people think that DE use mechanic like invincibility because they are lazy and incompetent. But the fact is warframe in its current state can never support a more complex design ed boss fight. So I point it out to let people know what should we expect from this game.

Edited June 9, 2015 by victor_victory

[SicSlaver]

Are we playing the same game?

He's right. There are frames that just fall over from frailty. If it weren't for the complete reliance on warframes with overpowered CC abilities, half would just die in 2 hits from enemies around level 80.