Dont Make Shotguns Snipers Again

[Doughalo2]

Seriously they just need more damage... keep the falloff shotguns should be up close and persoanl.

Also to all of you saying shotguns suffer at mid to long ranges... I want to call you rude words !

[ValkyrTheSoviet]

It's called the Hek.

[Naftal]

Imo there should be no damage falloff but spread on all shotguns should be tweaked to make less pellets hit further away targets. Sure you can use a mod to reduce spread but hey, the mod should have a use. This would also make Vicious Spread have an actual downside.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Naftal

[Babellon]

I agree with OP, Shotties are close  range weapons, not long range precision. 

[[DE]Grzegorz]

I agree with OP, Shotties are close  range weapons, not long range precision. 

If my research is right, most of the today shotties have effective range of about... 50 meters. With buckshot.

 

 

Surely this has to get compressed and balanced, as most of in-game engagements take place within 40 meters (and you really rarely shoot at anything past 80 meters), so their comfort zone should lie anywhere between point blank and 30 or so meters, and they should COMPLETELY OBLITERATE EVERYTHING within that range.

 

 

Having such weapon range balance, we'd have to split it to comfort zones, as shotties would excel at anything below 30m, rifles would do well up to 70-80m at most while snipers would excel at anything beyond, but it would require DE to completely rework and rebalance weapon mechanics. Adding proper spread, recoil and probably damage falloff values. At any rate, rifles still will be used the most, thanks to how versatile and easy to use they are, requiring no specific playstyle.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Mofixil

[Noobsdie4eva]

Imo there should be no damage falloff but spread on all shotguns should be tweaked to make less pellets hit further away targets. Sure you can use a mod to reduce spread but hey, the mod should have a use. This would also make Vicious Spread have an actual downside.

this, shotguns should not have reduced damage at a distance but spread should make it so that only one or so pellets hit, having the same effect. This would also have the effect of making -spread mods actually have a use

[RadioLarity]

If my research is right, most of the today shotties have effective range of about... 50 meters. With buckshot.

 

 

Surely this has to get compressed and balanced, as most of in-game engagements take place within 40 meters (and you really rarely shoot at anything past 80 meters), so their comfort zone should lie anywhere between point blank and 30 or so meters, and they should COMPLETELY OBLITERATE EVERYTHING within that range.

 

 

Having such weapon range balance, we'd have to split it to comfort zones, as shotties would excel at anything below 30m, rifles would do well up to 70-80m at most while snipers would excel at anything beyond, but it would require DE to completely rework and rebalance weapon mechanics. Adding proper spread, recoil and probably damage falloff values. At any rate, rifles still will be used the most, thanks to how versatile and easy to use they are, requiring no specific playstyle.

If my research is right, most of the ANY TIME ninjas WEREN'T wearing super suit's that made them cast magic. And most of them WEREN'T running right at enemies and turning everything to chaos at every step.

So everyone that says anything to compare Warframe to real life (or really any game that isn't simulation based) should leave and never come back, or shouldn't say anything.

[-Nevala-]

Just tweak the spread. Two layers of damage fall-off is unnecessary. Wide pellet spread is damage fall-off on its own.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

If my research is right, most of the ANY TIME ninjas WEREN'T wearing super suit's that made them cast magic. And most of them WEREN'T running right at enemies and turning everything to chaos at every step.

So everyone that says anything to compare Warframe to real life (or really any game that isn't simulation based) should leave and never come back, or shouldn't say anything.

I can't quite understand your problem with what I stated.

 

Most of the people out there assume that current shotguns have efficiency of a blunderbuss made hundreds of years ago, having very high spread (low accuracy) and not retaining stopping force for too long (low range).

 

I just wanted to inform some of these people that shotguns aren't exactly limited to point blank range, and authentic weapon balance is pretty much always reflected in game, we might be ninjas in fancy suits with magical powers, but for some reason we still have shotguns designed for seemingly close range, general purpose assault rifles and long range sniper rifles. And they are all balanced accordingly, we don't really have super close range snipers, nor we have sniper shotguns anymore.

[Marthrym]

If my research is right, most of the ANY TIME ninjas WEREN'T wearing super suit's that made them cast magic. And most of them WEREN'T running right at enemies and turning everything to chaos at every step.

So everyone that says anything to compare Warframe to real life (or really any game that isn't simulation based) should leave and never come back, or shouldn't say anything.

We're talking guns, not space magic...

We use the references we have. We do have references for shotguns. So obviously we use said references. No need for space magic comparison material here, since there is no magic involved in how these weapons work.

 

You have space magic references to use for frames, please do share. In the meanwhile, we will use the ones we have on what we have, namely shotguns, and not use completely unrelated things like space magic to argue how they should/shouldn't perform.

You should consider applying that last sentence in your post to you. Just saying.

 

 

Imo there should be no damage falloff but spread on all shotguns should be tweaked to make less pellets hit further away targets. Sure you can use a mod to reduce spread but hey, the mod should have a use. This would also make Vicious Spread have an actual downside.

^This.

Spread is a great way to make sure shotguns stay decent at a respectable range while not obliterating everything 50m away. DE could use this lever to balance shotties much more efficiently than a completely arbitrary damage fall-off.

[RadioLarity]

I can't quite understand your problem with what I stated.

 

Most of the people out there assume that current shotguns have efficiency of a blunderbuss made hundreds of years ago, having very high spread (low accuracy) and not retaining stopping force for too long (low range).

 

I just wanted to inform some of these people that shotguns aren't exactly limited to point blank range, and authentic weapon balance is pretty much always reflected in game, we might be ninjas in fancy suits with magical powers, but for some reason we still have shotguns designed for seemingly close range, general purpose assault rifles and long range sniper rifles. And they are all balanced accordingly, we don't really have super close range snipers, nor we have sniper shotguns anymore.

But this game isn't made for realism and following real life.

All this game, with really small exceptions (which are ususally defense missions), is made to fight at point blank to max 30 meters. So there wouldn't really be any place for any other weapons than shotguns if we would make them "real-life".

I don't understand the point of bragging about how games (especially this one) not follow real life.

[TaylorsContraction]

People who are against the removal of shotgun fall-off have such an opinion for two reasons only, Hek. We already have shotguns that do not suffer fall off,

 

Drakgood, Detron (Mara), Khom.

 

No one complains about shotguns that have spread, no one would care if the fall-off was removed from said shotguns. The only guns these nay-sayers are concerned about are the two outliers, multi-barreled rifles that do not act like a shotgun whatsoever. So all shotguns must suffer because of these unusual weapon designs that do not fit the shotgun role. Hek / Sobek have no spread and have multiple-barrels and in effect a build in multi-shot system. In the confines of the game it was easy for DE to just say, "It's a shotgun, count each round as an extra pellet, put it in the shotgun category, end of story.". But look at the poop-storm this has wrought whereby all actual shotguns have been rendered useless and while there is a strong conensus that the only problem is the fall-off feature, you constantly have people arguing against it's removal on the basis off "Don't turn shotties into sniping rifles".

 

 

CHANGE YOUR TITLE OP TO "Don't turn Hek and Sobek into sniping rifles", remove fall off damage and make the multi-barrel rifles, just like akjagara, a multi-barrel firing mechanic where it'll fire as many rounds as there are barrels. Hek and Sobek just don't belong in the shotgun category in the current grand scheme of things. They are more like the Sybaris if you ask me.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

But this game isn't made for realism and following real life.

All this game, with really small exceptions (which are ususally defense missions), is made to fight at point blank to max 30 meters. So there wouldn't really be any place for any other weapons than shotguns if we would make them "real-life".

I don't understand the point of bragging about how games (especially this one) not follow real life.

 

If it wasn't following real life, it wouldn't have shotguns described as "close range", Hek, it wouldn't have any weapons that would be even close to what we currently use, having only something vaguely resembling what humanity discovered. But weapons, their traits and use are imprinted in our brains, and we aren't really capable of creating something brand new (and having continuous weapons, we are pretty much out of options right now).

 

No matter how hard you try, Warframe is somewhat based on real life and what people are accustomed to, it's made by just humans, for people like us, it has to be understandable, self-explanatory and "logical".

 

People who are against the removal of shotgun fall-off have such an opinion for two reasons only, Hek. We already have shotguns that do not suffer fall off,

 

Drakgood, Detron (Mara), Khom.

Kohm is no longer projectile and has damage fall off.

[Hueminator]

I'm all for fall off removal.  At the end of the day I think sniper still hit harder and crit harder.

 

Oh and something fun to think about.  Sniper is A, and Shotgun is B.  Shotgun and Sniper are bad.  Removing fall off make shotgun sniper.  So B = A. and both are still bad huehue

Edited June 22, 2015 by Hueminator

[motorfirebox]

Weakness at long range should be a matter of spread, not pellets doing less damage.

[Siekier]

Damage falloff needs to go. Pellet spread is enough.

 

Then if someone wants to use shotgun at mid-long range he'd have to use Tainted Shell, so using up one slot they could potentially use for damage and lowering fire rate as well.

Hell, I don't even see a problem if someone wants to snipe with a shotgun. I mean, why not? You can snipe with shotguns in other games (pvp games), so someone sniping grineer across Cerberus wouldn't ruin the fun for me in any way.

 

Current damage falloff is a giant failure, at some ranges throwing rocks at enemies would be more effective. 

[[DE]Grzegorz]

It's funny how despite all the hate of RNG you have, you'd rather balance shotguns with random spread than predictable and constant damage falloff.

[motorfirebox]

It's funny how despite all the hate of RNG you have, you'd rather balance shotguns with random spread than predictable and constant damage falloff.

Spread isn't really random. It's not like one shot ask the pellets fly straight and the next they all go in different directions. At any given distance from the end of the barrel, the pellets are always going to be within a certain distance of each other.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Spread is as random as it gets within given boundary (as, e.g. doesn't exceed 1 degree deviation from the aimpoint). Within that limit, we have semi-random but limited options (as no game uses infinite precision).

 

We could always give rifles some spread increase per shot and no spread cap, it would limit their usefulness against very distant opponents (requiring the user to burst instead of magdumping), but that would help only snipers.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Mofixil

[Noobsdie4eva]

It's funny how despite all the hate of RNG you have, you'd rather balance shotguns with random spread than predictable and constant damage falloff.

I hate RNG when something I need has a very low weight. Spread would work no different to how it does currently, just slightly more spread out due to distance

[MJ12]

It's funny how despite all the hate of RNG you have, you'd rather balance shotguns with random spread than predictable and constant damage falloff.

 

 

If you wanted shotguns to not fire pellets, but rather damage everything in a cone with constant damage falloff, that'd be one thing. Except shotguns are still going to fire pellets, and they're also going to have damage falloff.

 

That means you have all the fun of the RNG and an extra layer of damage falloff.

 

Furthermore, RNG is only a problem with loot because it comes so rarely, relatively speaking. Shotguns, especially fast-firing ones like the Boar (Prime), fire fast enough that your actual number of hits at any given range very quickly approaches the mean.

 

Moreover, if shotguns are balanced for damage falloff, they'd need absurd close-in DPS levels, which is bad. Melee damage is already weak compared to ranged damage output, giving people melee weapons with ammo that deal even more damage close-in won't help.

 

Edited June 22, 2015 by MJ12

[Hueminator]

It's funny how despite all the hate of RNG you have, you'd rather balance shotguns with random spread than predictable and constant damage falloff.

 

A shotgun with 10 pellets, each deal 10 dmg.  If you 6 pellets hit due to spread = 60 damage without fall off.  If you factor in damage fall off it is 6 damage, and even all pellet hit it is 10 damage.

 

RNG for without fall off is 0 to 100.  RNG with fall off is 0-10

 

Although fall off is not an RNG, it is still a factor to considered.  The spread always act as RNG regardless you have damage fall off or not.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Hueminator

[motorfirebox]

Guys, shotgun spread is not RNG. If you shoot the same target twice with the same shotgun from the same distance, unless your aim is off the same number of pellets should hit the target both times. If the target is 20m away and only six out of ten pellets hit, that isn't RNG, it's the spread pattern placing a certain number of pellets in a certain radius at a certain distance.

[Hueminator]

Use an unmodded shotgun or a bronco (so you see less pellet) and fire on a wall.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Hueminator

[Ve1indian]

removal of damage fall-off and fixed spread patterns would do a lot for shotguns currently. Introducing a damage ramp-up mechanic for less accurate shotguns would give them an area of expertise in contrast to "sniping" shotguns.

 

Of course there needs to be damage, reload, and firerate adjustments for shotguns, but that's a whole other can of worms.