Why It's Time To Reevaluate Playing This Game.

[SwooceRaiden]

I wish there was a blacklist option and/or "rework X because Y, I hate DE and WHY I DO, check out my awesome warframe idea" type forums.

 

So sick of this nonsense, and at the same time, it's thrown in my face like 50% of the time.

I love this idea. Hide every sort of criticism or complaint, no matter how valid. That way, everyone is happy and no changes need to be made!

[Marthrym]

I love this idea. Hide every sort of criticism or complaint, no matter how valid. That way, everyone is happy and no changes need to be made!

Yeah! Let's do this!

[ProfessorZero]

@MASTER:

"That experience would drive them to want better tools (which would spur them to increase MR)." = more grind---> how do they increase the grind exactly? Oh yes, through farming:

You conveniently pass over the fact that most of the weapons in the game were purposefully designed to be underpowered. A fact that both Proffessor and me agree on and recognize. "Experimentation" will never happen, ever because what y'all continually fail to realize is that players will pick one weapon and stick with it until they've grinded enough mastery ranks to move to a more powerful alternative. Bad weapons will still be considered "mastery trash."

Eg.

MR 1: uses Paris until...

MR4: switches to Karak until...

MR8: switches to Jat Kittag until...

And so on and so forth: there will be zero experimentation, period.

Lastly, "mastery trash" or terms like it are only used by a (size unknown) community within Warframe, the mastery farmers; however, the only foreseeable conclusion to mastery gating, assuming no current systems are changed, would be ALL players referring to MOST weapons as "mastery trash."

Right now you are assuming someone gets the best weapon and the levels nothing else, and you are also assuming that they go to draco immediately. I've been power leveling the past couple of days, leveling things like the prova, plasma sword (.666 attack speed wtf...) and yeah, I'm grinding. You are saying that some how people will grind more to get to the higher levels. 

1) until you acquire all the mods necessary simply getting to draco is a daunting prospect. People don't do 90% of the missions on the star map, which means it will take you quite some time to get there. During this time is when we can level up the, for lack of a better term, trash weapons like the plasma sword.

 

2) yes, people will absolutely flock towards the best weapon or two in each mastery catagory, thats natural. Thats nothing new, people already do it. Trust me, if you have the dread you are not about to start using the braton in content thats difficult for you. 

 

3) You and I are both beyond MR 8, which proves that people already DO grind past MR 8 when they have the best weapon. Heck I'm about to hit MR 15, I think you are MR 14 which is no inconsequential amount of "extra" content leveled, and I'm going to take a guess here and say you did not play spy missions to rank those weapons up. 

4) I think I understand a bit of your grind concern now. You are commenting that there will be a new "required" amount of grind to get the top tier stuff. I agree, the point is that instead of it being a chore to rank up drastically underpowered weapons when they the Boltor Prime early, since the weapons will now be roughly "the best they can get" it won't be a chore and will become a far more enjoyable activity. 

          4a) Additionally I reject the notion that noobs will be relegated to the tissue shooters. For example the Pyrana is locked until you hit MR 6 I believe, yet it is a completely viable weapon to take well into the star chart and the T1 Void. Is it the melt cannon that a gammacor or marelock is? no. Will noobs have more of a difficult time with it? absolutely, and they should. Noobs shouldn't be unstoppable gods of death like those who have bothered to rank up an endless sea of weapons. Allowing rookies to have early access to top tier weapons reduces the enjoyability of content. Part of the reason why the tactical alerts that limited conclave is that it allowed some of Warframes AI to actually show itself besides each mob lasting maybe 3 seconds upon encountering a player. I can quite honestly tell you that I have never ONCE used an ammo supply gear, or gear in general besides the scanner. Thats because my weapon outshined the content I was playing at (I got an early dread) which let me wreck everything. 

 

 5) on the issue of me poking a hole in your jupiter oxium example/theory. Yes I was only 3 away from the cap, that was on purpose to show that what you saw as a very strict limit allowed for a near god mode victory (I took no health damage). So while it did not inhibit my ability to farm, it did prevent me from coptering, and if i had gone down, from shooting. Now imagine we had lowered the cap more. Maybe I would have had to drop some of my corrupted mods, or pick a different primary, now I would still be very powerful, but I wouldn't simply be carrying my entire squad to victory. Each mission should provide some challenge, you shouldn't be able to stand stationary and fire at everything like a turret. Yes I'm sure you enjoy that is incredibly easy to farm everything while you are nigh invincible, but quite honestly you don't need to. Nobody I know on warframe has a lower the 80% completion rate, and alot of the failures are from leaving, not mission failure. Ill get a count for you how many missions I've actually failed, and it will be tiny.

In summery, your argument basically says that mastery locking would increase required grind. I agree, but its grind that will happen sooner or later, and honestly your draco concerns are overblown considering they have to GET to draco first, and since they can't have the top tier they will have to actually take their time (part of me wants to say "clear a planet before you go onto the next, but thats a different discussion). Your conclave capping argument has basically descended into "But I want to feel like an unstoppable god of destruction." Thats great, but you truly don't need to be one in order to farm properly, and even with reasonable conclave caps you can still be a wrecking ball. The issue with this line of thought is that being the "juggernaut" on jupiter means that you become the "tissue shooter" in T4S after minute 30-40. Yes people succeed there, and past that point, but not that often with people in recruiting, and honestly, you should be able to be more consistent with victory there. whats the point of having rotations when you never get to see a second B or C rotation, let alone a third.

TLDR- Mastery locking only changes when the inevitable grind happens, conclave capping just makes you a demi-god instead of a god.  

-edit, accidently submitted early-- 

Edited July 5, 2015 by ProfessorZero

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

The nerf minority has been calling for nerfs to everything high powered in player content since long long before Nullifiers, mutalists, corrupted bombards, parasitic and venomous eximi, MLG Ballistas, ancient hooks. And DE has been pinging ponging the player base all along, long before Nullifiers, mutalists, corrupted bombards, parasitic and venomous eximi, MLG Ballistas, ancient hooks.

An unknown number of former players quit because they are sick and tired of wasting money on content that DE is going to destroy. It's no fun constantly having your toys broken and it's even worse when you spend money on it.

Keep in mind that the lack of "balance" in warframe means that players who want low powered content have the majority of the choices in content. They lose nothing when high powered content is in the game. They can always play the game as they wish. That means that the only possible motive they can have for wanting nerfs to high powered content is that they don't want to share the game. That's not a rational motive and it's not possible to evolve or grow a game based on it.

Guess how DE dealt with the high powered content? By balancing everything around it. If we had our way, you could experience all the content in the game with your preferred weapons, or go to a low level and sleepwalk through everything if you wanted. But I cannot do a raid with an Obex (or most melees) or a sniper unless I cheese my way into using both, I cannot do a tactical alert escalation without cheesing, and I cannot avoid high powered enemy attacks without having CC constantly, having invulnerability constantly, stacking buffs until I can wipe them all instantly, or having high damage reduction constantly active.

You are the one that has access to everything. Cheesing works everywhere. The opposite doesn't. As long as your preferred methods, which I find mind numbingly boring, are so much better, I cannot use mine on any content designed (usually unsuccessfully) to challenge yours. You can use yours on the sliver of missions from Mercury to Neptune that are designed with mine in mind, and there you can still prevent me from doing what I want just by playing the way you want. How do I possibly have access to more than you?

Edited July 5, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[ProfessorZero]

I feel like I need to address the bitterness that is seeming to seep out of both sides of the argument here. If someone says something that just factually doesn't make sense, feel free to spite them. But when we are trying to get the game to improve, lets at least stay neutral. Insulting the development team or one of the debaters is not the way to go. Also understand that in an argument you rarely convince the other person, and are instead arguing to convince the audience. I hold no illusions that ShapelessHorror and I are destined to 'agree to disagree', so understanding that we are doomed to not convince the other, lets remain civil, no?

[ProfessorZero]

Guess how DE dealt with the high powered content? By balancing everything around it. If we had our way, you could experience all the content in the game with your preferred weapons, or go to a low level and sleepwalk through everything if you wanted. But I cannot do a raid with an Obex (or most melees) or a sniper unless I cheese my way into using both, I cannot do a tactical alert escalation without cheesing, and I cannot avoid high powered enemy attacks without having CC constantly, having invulnerability constantly, stacking buffs until I can wipe them all instantly, or having high damage reduction constantly active.

You are the one that has access to everything. Cheesing works everywhere. The opposite doesn't. As long as your preferred methods, which I find mind numbingly boring, are so much better, I cannot use mine on any content designed (usually unsuccessfully) to challenge yours. You can use yours on the sliver of missions from Mercury to Neptune that are designed with mine in mind, and there you can still prevent me from doing what I want just by playing the way you want. How do I possibly have access to more than you?

Interesting point, but i contest it, partially at least. 

I can take my braton, moded correctly to a T3 void mission, and with a squad, emerge victorious. It'll challenge me a bit, but I can do it. Now I love the braton, it feels good as a rifle, but it shouldn't be able to do that. Its the upgraded version of a starter weapon, not a difficult and hard one prize. 

So while yes, my high powered gun allows me to conquer more stuff, you have so much more variety and choice amongst a vast majority of the content. You can take an acrid, or a tigris, or pretty much any weapon you want, to nearly any mission you want. Where as someone who wants to play the hardest content possible, and go as far as possible in that content, is limited to 3 percent of the equipment available. So while mission wise you're right, your range does not stretch as far, the "gimme more power" crowd has minimal options. Thats true in a lot of games, but a mid upper tier weapon can go as reasonably far in the end content as anyone else, while the top tier allows for minutely more distance to be covered. That and while you can enjoy your lower level guns in the content you love, we are far more limited.

Its a reasonable stance to take, just not one I'm a fan of.  

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Interesting point, but i contest it, partially at least. 

I can take my braton, moded correctly to a T3 void mission, and with a squad, emerge victorious. It'll challenge me a bit, but I can do it. Now I love the braton, it feels good as a rifle, but it shouldn't be able to do that. Its the upgraded version of a starter weapon, not a difficult and hard one prize. 

So while yes, my high powered gun allows me to conquer more stuff, you have so much more variety and choice amongst a vast majority of the content. You can take an acrid, or a tigris, or pretty much any weapon you want, to nearly any mission you want. Where as someone who wants to play the hardest content possible, and go as far as possible in that content, is limited to 3 percent of the equipment available. So while mission wise you're right, your range does not stretch as far, the "gimme more power" crowd has minimal options. Thats true in a lot of games, but a mid upper tier weapon can go as reasonably far in the end content as anyone else, while the top tier allows for minutely more distance to be covered. That and while you can enjoy your lower level guns in the content you love, we are far more limited.

Its a reasonable stance to take, just not one I'm a fan of.

Now I get the disconnect. I want to be able to do the highest content, and I'm sure this goes for most people who ask for nerfs. But I don't want that content to prioritize mindless ability usage and spray-and-pray rifles over blending a variety of skills and a balanced approach to weapons. I don't want that content to require using CC to turn the enemies into target practice, or being invisible for 60 minutes, or enemy health that's insanely high to prevent damage abilities from working (since otherwise they'd be unstoppable).

But these things are so much better than any kind of playstyle I'd enjoy that the high levels have to require them, in order to actually challenge you. If the gap between how you like to play and how I like to play were narrowed, I could actually play the same content as you, with you, the way I like while you did it the way you wanted. I do not want us playing the current Raids with Vectis or Obex-level weapons. I want us playing Raids that can challenge your Boltor Prime (an example), without requiring I ditch my Vectis or Obex.

[ThePresident777]

Cheese content?  WTF sort of discussion is this?  "The stuff you like is cheese."  That sort of talk is why these "discussions" are a farce.

 

No one is forced to play with "cheese".  There is non-"cheese" content in Warframe.  However, if there is no "cheese" then the people who want to play with "cheese" can't play the game.  And by the looks of it, "everybody" is playing with "cheese".  Getting rid of the "cheese", gets rid of "everybody".

 

And what exactly are "cheese" enemies?  More defense, more damage.  The difference is that the non-"cheese" enemy are not as dangerous.  So anyone who wants dangerous enemy, has to go against "cheese" enemies.  And the only way to have a chance to play against "cheese" enemies is with "cheese" Tenno content and faster reflexes.  Against non-"cheese", the Tenno can take their time defending themselves, they can face tank all day, even without defense mods.  It's a slow game.  "Cheese" content is a faster game, one mistake = dead.  Non-"cheese" content allows a lot of mistakes.

Edited July 5, 2015 by ThePresident777

[DarthBane1]

I'll agree. I've been playing since before the original rhino has been released(Yes when he was the actual TANK of the game not valkyr). 

 

The new content is what keeps me coming back I agree. If there wasn't new GOOD weapons/warframes I probably wouldn't play anymore. The making of enemies harder and harder compared to weapons like Soma P is getting so sad that I'm starting to get irritated. I would think have certian levels for ok weapons, good weapons, and beast weapons (That way it keeps you interested).

 

 

And the new parkour? Looks great but I agree possibly gonna have issues with melee. Probably should have implemented since the beginning.

 

New StarChart? Didn't we already have that starchart back in the day? Or something similar. (it was before all the primes except excal prime.) I don't think we needa go back......

 

I'm excited to use Parkour, Ash Prime, see the power/s of Ying Yang. And interested to see the abilities of Catbrows. But the constant teasing of the new content? OLD

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Cheese content?  WTF sort of discussion is this?  "The stuff you like is cheese."  That sort of talk is why these "discussions" are a farce.

 

No one is forced to play with "cheese".  There is non-"cheese" content in Warframe.  However, if there is no "cheese" then the people who want to play with "cheese" can't play the game.  And by the looks of it, "everybody" is playing with "cheese".  Getting rid of the "cheese", gets rid of "everybody".

Everybody doesn't like cheesing, or people wouldn't macro farming runs and events like the Bursa one that require it wouldn't be almost universally panned. But it's required for any high leveled content, and it's faster for getting rewards (another issue DE has to resolve) so everybody does it, or quits. Furthermore, many people don't trust DE to make changes properly, which also makes them very hesitant towards change.

But cheesing shouldn't be a playstyle, because by definition it's going to be the easiest, least interactive, and best way to play. Constant ability usage should be, but then it shouldn't be the most powerful ones. If someone wants to throw a thousand fireballs or freezes, that should be viable (which it isn't now). But if the most powerful ones are effectively limitless that means they must make any other worthless. Their point is to be the best items, so they cannot also be the most used.

[ThePresident777]

Everybody doesn't like "cheesing" but the people who do not like it are the important people so when they say get rid of "cheese", DE has to comply, and the hell with people who do like "cheese".

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Everybody doesn't like "cheesing" but the people who do not like it are the important people so when they say get rid of "cheese", DE has to comply, and the hell with people who do like "cheese".

There is more straw in that sentence than I know what to do with.

[(PSN)gino1313]

I never got into the whole "I NEED EVERYTHING" mentality, I've just stayed to a few frames and guns and truly pushed those weapons as far as they would go. That means putting 4 forma into Paris P to get that last elemental mod, 6 into the grakata because that thing kicks a**, and 3 into my Valkyr. I didn't bother with volt p, instead I just went for 3 forma on my volt I built after the prime variant was released. There is no need to get that 6 forma feel on every gun you own, keep all the guns, or level every gun. MR 10 is fun but 700 hours of play is more fun. MR doesn't measure skill after E-Gate, Gmag, and all that other crap that burned people who keep their noses clean.

[Davoodoo]

I never got into the whole "I NEED EVERYTHING" mentality, I've just stayed to a few frames and guns and truly pushed those weapons as far as they would go. That means putting 4 forma into Paris P to get that last elemental mod, 6 into the grakata because that thing kicks a**, and 3 into my Valkyr. I didn't bother with volt p, instead I just went for 3 forma on my volt I built after the prime variant was released. There is no need to get that 6 forma feel on every gun you own, keep all the guns, or level every gun. MR 10 is fun but 700 hours of play is more fun. MR doesn't measure skill after E-Gate, Gmag, and all that other crap that burned people who keep their noses clean.

You know, everyone started like that.

At beginning i said, "ok ill get ash and maybe ember, braton really suits me so theres no need to replace it, maybe ill get a sniper though".

 

Few months later i farmed new stuff simply because there wasnt anything else to do.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Davoodoo

[ThePresident777]

But cheesing shouldn't be a playstyle

 

You don't have to "cheese" if you don't like.  But, you're not special enough to decide for other people how they play.

[ThePresident777]

And, how was that new stuff farmed?  The same way as when stuff was not being farmed.  Farming in Warframe consists of doing the same thing in one spot as was done in another spot.  It's just a different spot by name.  So, "farming stuff because there is nothing else to do" is the same as just playing the game you have been playing all along.

Edited July 6, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Davoodoo]

You don't have to "cheese" if you don't like.  But, you're not special enough to decide for other people how they play.

No, you have to.

 

You dont want to spend next 3 months farming next prime, prepare to cheese 1 hour survivals and 60 waves defenses, not only you will get less drops without those but drop tables needed to be nerfed to accomodate ppl being able to do that.

 

You want to do raid?? enemies oneshot you with laser accuracy hitscan guns?? cc is your only way.

 

You dont want to cheese?? someone else will cheese for you. Switch to solo?? whats the @(*()$ point of this game being mmo then??

 

Who i am to decide how other ppl play?? One thats being limited by their playstyle.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Davoodoo

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

You don't have to "cheese" if you don't like.  But, you're not special enough to decide for other people how they play.

You must have missed the other things I wrote. By its existence and incompatibility with any other playstyle, cheesing forces itself to be the necessary playstyle. And, as I already explained, it's not something that most people find enjoyable( or game design would be insanely easy).

[taiiat]

the only thing i have to talk about (i.e. the only thing i specifically need to talk about), is:

'all the Players are gone'.

no, they really aren't. you can take a picture of your personal friends all day, but your sample includes less than 0.000001% of all of the Players in the game. (my own sample size includes 76/110 Players i know in Warframe having played it in the past Two Weeks - but ofcourse it isn't accurate information, sample size is too small)

if you're in a region that's not very densely populated (i feel for you if you're in Oceania), then you must choose between latency that's reasonable, or finding Players to play with.

EU West, US East, and to a lesser extent US Central/ US West - are THE regions for Video Games. these regions represent over 80% of a possible customer base. one exception being games designed specifically for Eastern audiences, which then are only available in Korea, China, and Japan.

like any game, it can look like it sometimes, but Warframe is very, very far from being in a no Players situation. you can't get accurate information when your sample size isn't even 1% of the total.

[(PSN)deathfrombelow5]

I never got into the whole "I NEED EVERYTHING" mentality, I've just stayed to a few frames and guns and truly pushed those weapons as far as they would go. That means putting 4 forma into Paris P to get that last elemental mod, 6 into the grakata because that thing kicks a**, and 3 into my Valkyr. I didn't bother with volt p, instead I just went for 3 forma on my volt I built after the prime variant was released. There is no need to get that 6 forma feel on every gun you own, keep all the guns, or level every gun. MR 10 is fun but 700 hours of play is more fun. MR doesn't measure skill after E-Gate, Gmag, and all that other crap that burned people who keep their noses clean.

Usually I only build/forma frames and weapons that are good/interest me. The mastery fodder weapons are things I don't usually even touch. 

 

Usually, I am a collector, but this game has a terrible way of making far too many crap weapons to collect, and far too little interesting missions. 

[Davoodoo]

'all the Players are gone'.

Back in the day when you needed to have someone in friends to inv them i had quite a few friends, every 3 months i was deleting 100-200 veterans which i played with because they werent online of over 2 months. 

 

Not all players are gone, but warframe really fails to keep ppl playing.

[ThePresident777]

If "cheese" is necessary to acquire content then tell DE to put content in the non-"cheese" zone.  Getting rid of "cheese" does not put content in the non-"cheese" zone.

 

It's mind reading to say that people do not enjoy "cheese", it's also contradicted by all the opposition to getting rid of "cheese".

 

Incompatibility is no excuse to take game play away from the people who are enjoying it and doing so at the behest of others means that the others are the special people and the rest are the lesser people.  No one will pay money to be treated like a lesser person.

[Davoodoo]

If "cheese" is necessary to acquire content then tell DE to put content in the non-"cheese" zone.  Getting rid of "cheese" does not put content in the non-"cheese" zone.

 

It's mind reading to say that people do not enjoy "cheese", it's also contradicted by all the opposition to getting rid of "cheese".

 

Incompatibility is no excuse to take game play away from the people who are enjoying it and doing so at the behest of others means that the others are the special people and the rest are the lesser people.  No one will pay money to be treated like a lesser person.

There is no "no cheese" zone everything can be cheesed.

And if cheesing yields best results then theey need to adjust drop rates to accomodate its existance or ppl would acquire stuff to easily.

 

Opposition will always be, ppl by nature despise changes. Then ppl are aware that drop chances are so horrible that you need to cheese to acquire them at steady rate, without actually realising that cheesing affects drop rates. Proof?? you yourself.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Davoodoo

[ThePresident777]

Then tell DE to make a "no cheese" zone.

[Davoodoo]

Then tell DE to make a "no cheese" zone.

Which would involve getting rid of cheesing first.

 

Im doing so already