Why Do People Complain About How Rng And Grindy This Game Is?

[Thumper3]

It keeps you going. Grind is an awesome way to keep people going at this game. This game is all about progression, so it's a way of keeping people occupied for a while.

 

Also when you finally achieve what you set out to do, the feeling is amazing.

This is like the epitome of "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again."

 

But of course, the drop chances have to be reasonable.

There has to be balance between the grind and the rewards. Right now people are running so many missions, and receiving forma after forma. The fact that drop chances are so unreasonably low weighs the scale completely in DE's favour.

 

Like RedDirtTrooper said, the ratio has to be correct.

 

 

This.

 

1000% this.

 

 

Grind games are fun because you feel like you really control your destiny.  You decide what to go for and then achieve it and it feels great.

 

Grind games that punish do not give this reward, they instead give frustration and annoyance and eventually people quit.  While Diablo 3 was a boring button mashing grind game it got one thing right.  They set a alogarithm so that if the RNG didn't come up with a rare drop after a certain time of play, it would FORCE a rare drop.  Granted, the rare drops were still usually garbage and you still had to play the RNG of rares........but it kept you from wanting to stab yourself in the ear after playing for 3 hours and getting nothing but yellow and white trash.

 

The fact that you can go into Void missions day after day, hour after hour and get common mods only is sad.  The fact that you HAVE to build things in WF (which is a great mechanic) exasperates this issue, as you end up having 2 of the 3 items you need......and then spend a month getting duplicates of those same items but never the last one you actually need.

 

I don't think anyone is saying get rid of the grind, but the grind has to be made more reasonable.

 

Heck, I play a LOT, I've been addicted hard to this game and I don't know why LOL  I play at least 2 hours every night, usually 3, and then about 10-12 hours on the weekend.  Imagine the psychological effect on a person who can't play as much?  I may have to grind for a week to finally get RNG to drop what I need, and even then that's no certainty.  But for someone who plays half as much that could be 2 weeks, or 3.  At a certain point people start to look at how they spend their time.....and may decide it's not worth it and go play something else.

 

This goes for resources too.  I mean, come on.......playing Earth missions for 3 straight hours and getting ZERO Nuerodes?  That's stupid, again, needs an alogarithm to throw us a bone.

[RedDirtTrooper]

I still think the solution to the crap drop rates is void tokens. Something like the void trader only with ALL of the void drops available, then reward tokens based on the tier of the mission, tier 1 exterminate = 1 token, t 2 defense = 2 tokens as a tier 3 reward, tier 3 capture = 3 tokens, etc. No more reward dilution, and every single void mission gets you closer to your goal. They wouldn't have to be cheap, or easy numbers to acquire, but at least you would always know you were making solid forward progress. Right now, it feels like dancing for rain to appease the gods and end a drought. Maybe you are doing some good, or maybe your just a jack hole wearing feathers and beads and shaking a stick at the sky.

[Tali]

it reminds me of when i had to do 87x T4 Ext just to get Bo Prime Handle or ~1000 waves of T3 Def just to get Braton Prime Reciever (at that time T4 did not exist and 1x T3 Def was equal to 25 waves for 1x reward). sometimes it can be really tiresome and other times ok

[Psychus]

Because there is a difference between a moderate grind and a Korean MMO style endless grind fest. It's all about the time to reward ratio. If you get that ratio correct people will play your game for years, if you don't they'll abandon it. You have to be able to play that next few hours feeling good about what you are going to get for it, rather than hopeless. Warframe is rapidly approaching the point where attempting to acquire what you want can feel pretty hopeless, especially as far as void rewards are concerned. About the time you get your 43rd paris prime part, forma, etc. instead of what you are looking for, those next few hours start looking pretty bad.

Well I mean. Playerbase is pretty stable. Actually, it's grown quite a bit since the end of closed beta, and warframe doesn't look like it's going away anytime soon, so. By that logic warframe is one of those games with a good grind. People just want something to *@##$ and moan about I guess.

[Sannidor]

The solution to the grind, psychologically, is just to not "go for" anything - i.e. don't expect anything, just play for fun,and stuff either comes or it doesn't.

 

Which is fine, it's actually possible to play that way.

 

In theory we don't have to play WF to the fullest to get our goals.

 

If you want PvP mods you can trade for syndicate mods etc. and there's always trading for plat...

 

But in reality, rewards locked behind low drop rate or event exclusive are way more expensive only because their rarity.

 

None of the tasks required to get super rare mod or part are difficult. Unlocking solar system and mastery 18 are EASY.

Even raid does not require real cooperation, only a bit of coordination. Disconnecting from the host before reward screen is the only monster I fear.

 

Rift Sigil + Tempo Royale alert was the only thing that could be tedious with vanilla builds.60 

 

Going T4S for 1 hour only to save some keys is a standard. This is what DE made us do.

[Hypernaut1]

but most of this games content isnt even RNG. You can build most weapons, and WFs by buying blueprints and getting the resources. You can get augments from Syndicates. You can get rare items every 2 weeks from Baro. You can buy special BPs from a Dojo. There is PLENTy  of non-rng progress that can be made in this game.

 

Most of the people complaining probably already have several completed prime items and several rare mods. You are not suppose to have everything. You're not suppose to get Ash prime 2 weeks after its released. Just play the game. If you're not having fun, then what's the point? 

 

also keep in mind- everyone keeps asking for a token system, but trade is available. Its part of the game, and if you dont want to buy plat, you can trade for plat and buy the part you want. The content isnt as locked away as people like to complain. Their only counter argument is to say "but i dont want to trade" well if thats your reason for not buying the part, then its on you. We can even sell syndicate mods. So you can't even say trade is fully dependent on RNG either.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Hypernaut1

[RedDirtTrooper]

but most of this games content isnt even RNG. You can build most weapons, and WFs by buying blueprints and getting the resources. You can get augments from Syndicates. You can get rare items every 2 weeks from Baro. You can buy special BPs from a Dojo. There is PLENTy  of non-rng progress that can be made in this game.

 

Most of the people complaining probably already have several completed prime items and several rare mods. You are not suppose to have everything. You're not suppose to get Ash prime 2 weeks after its released. Just play the game. If you're not having fun, then what's the point? 

 

also keep in mind- everyone keeps asking for a token system, but trade is available. Its part of the game, and if you dont want to buy plat, you can trade for plat and buy the part you want. The content isnt as locked away as people like to complain. Their only counter argument is to say "but i dont want to trade" well if thats your reason for not buying the part, then its on you. We can even sell syndicate mods. So you can't even say trade is fully dependent on RNG either.

A lot of us have anything that can be easily acquired built. Rare items from Baro are a just a bandage for the open wound of the current void drop tables.

 

We also aren't rewarded for having fun, any fun is lost when the game design requires us to hammer the same content over, and over, and over again until it loses any resemblance it may once have had to fun.

 

Trade is extremely frustrating for most players who don't have any desire to haggle/cheat other players. DE, for the very good reason of maintaining the value of the plat market, refuses to add a trading post style feature to the game. The end result is that trading is a steaming cesspool full of sharks, cons, and liars that many of us have no desire to swim in. After all these years I have an inventory full of extra items I don't know the fair trade value of, and a list of items I want that I don't know the fair trade value of, and no real way of getting that information other than players in trade channel who for reasons of greed or ignorance can't be trusted. Lots of us have no desire to "play" the market, and in the absence of the option to pay and receive a fair market value for items we are left feeling like trade isn't really an option at all.

[Kaotyke]

The second quote, read it...

I've already experienced such a thing, although it's forma BP

I've run, like, 20 T4E keys, not even a bo prime handle, even though it's not new, how much more that last vectis part I need...

Also have recently ran Sycorax, Uranus quite an amount of times (some 30 runs, I forgot). 8 waves, still no T4E keys. Instead I get T4D keys, which I have quite a sum of...

Bo Handles drop a lot more in T4I from my experience.

[fatpig84]

A lot of us have anything that can be easily acquired built. Rare items from Baro are a just a bandage for the open wound of the current void drop tables.

 

We also aren't rewarded for having fun, any fun is lost when the game design requires us to hammer the same content over, and over, and over again until it loses any resemblance it may once have had to fun.

 

Trade is extremely frustrating for most players who don't have any desire to haggle/cheat other players. DE, for the very good reason of maintaining the value of the plat market, refuses to add a trading post style feature to the game. The end result is that trading is a steaming cesspool full of sharks, cons, and liars that many of us have no desire to swim in. After all these years I have an inventory full of extra items I don't know the fair trade value of, and a list of items I want that I don't know the fair trade value of, and no real way of getting that information other than players in trade channel who for reasons of greed or ignorance can't be trusted. Lots of us have no desire to "play" the market, and in the absence of the option to pay and receive a fair market value for items we are left feeling like trade isn't really an option at all.

 

You can choose to complain that trading is a cesspool, but you are not doing yourselves any favours.

In trading, there is always a stable commodity.

In WF these are unranked rare mods and they are mostly stable now.

So at least in the PC, new players have a easy idea to figure out where to start.

 

Syndicate mods.

Always 12 to 15 Plat.

 

Lower tier rare mods (like Flow Continuity, barrel diffusion)

5 to 8 plat.

 

Nightmare mods

10 to 25 plat

Blaze and Hammershot are in the 20 to 25 range

Exception being Armored Agility which can go up to 50 to 80.

But that is probably due to demand.

 

 

Corrupted mods.

10 to 25 plat

25p tend to be FE, Narrow Minded, Blind rage etc

 

 

These have net me a very decent amount of plat and always ample buyers.

Edited August 19, 2015 by fatpig84

[DiabolicalHamSandwich]

Erm....because warframe is a grindy rng game in a negative way? how is that even something to be questioned? 

 

There's a difference between working for something and something working you over. Being less grindy can and has been done right so just slop with that point right there~

 

But last but not least the old "all other mmos do it" alrighty so we as players shouldn't say anything? There's a good difference between healthy grind and filler grind and guess which one farmframe falls into? The whole "everyone else does it so eh" is a point that should be stopped as a reason. 

 

The point is true, some of the complaints are legit. Seeing them too many times don't change that fact~

Edited August 19, 2015 by DiabolicalHamSandwich

[KaMicahZay]

I agree with you OP, Warframe is the Grind, embrace it. Without it you would just sit in your liset all day doing nothing. However, it becomes quite tedious once you have repeated the same level over 50 times for an item with no luck. Variation is your saving grace in a world of farming to prevent boredom. And extreme farming and grinding has no variation. THAT, is the issue people have.

[Endrance]

I get the feeling everyone forgets that Warframe runs the typical Dungeon Crawler type.

 

Same mission/mobs over and over and over to get a specific low rate item.

 

When those people get it, it makes it much easier to accept the fact that low drop rates are not that bad. Just a typical obstacle in this kind of game.

[(PSN)blueflameskY]

Variation is your saving grace in a world of farming to prevent boredom. And extreme farming and grinding has no variation. THAT, is the issue people have.

This is my opinion as well. Anybody would burnout if they just play void missions nonstop. Switch it up once in a while so you can experience everything Warframe has to offer.

Also, trading is a big part of the game, and choosing not to participate in it will only hinder your progression and enjoyment. Sure there are some $&*^s/scammers in trade chat, but really they aren't very common and are usually easy to spot. Most people in trade are just regular players looking for stuff they would rather not grind for, not sharks or hustlers. The pros for trading outweigh the cons IMO, so spending a little time to learn how to trade is definitely worth it.

[Hypernaut1]

Also - who counts their tries? I'm seeing very specific numbers like "I've done void 32x". Do you guys write down every time you do a mission?

[ravend]

You think the grind is bad here? Go play skyforge, takes a week of solid grinding to unlock a different class.

[Pandaman444]

To me this is what makes the game fun. Working hard for what you want. It also keeps me busy.

[Kaisty]

I get the feeling everyone forgets that Warframe runs the typical Dungeon Crawler type.

 

Same mission/mobs over and over and over to get a specific low rate item.

 

When those people get it, it makes it much easier to accept the fact that low drop rates are not that bad. Just a typical obstacle in this kind of game.

It may run like a dungeon crawler and have some of the main components like one, but the RNG is the worst by far. At least other grind based games try to keep their grind walls separate (e.g. One for loot, one for making / enhancing gear, one for a gacha/ loot box, etc.) while Warframe lumps them all into one area (chance for a key for a void mission you seek + chance for the rotation of items + chance for the item.)

Then you have the problem of lower end drops showing up in the loot table? Most games tend to keep the really common drops out of the higher tier missions and instead replaces them with the lower end rare items. When someone gets multiple forma blue prints or uncommon mods that can be found in lower missions just as easily in a t3 to t4 mission, it feels like bad RNG coding.

As for the trading for what you want, you forget that if you are trading for plat, you need something of value in return. If you got really bad RNG relations with Warframe, you won't have much to trade. This is worse if you are a free player not looking / unable to spend money on plat.

Finally, the whole "ignore the grind and you will get what you seek in time." Is fine and dandy if you never noticed it in the first place. You can set personal goals, limit yourself in what weapons and gear you use, can even try to help newbies in the game; but in the end, the grind will remind you that it is there. I can attest that I used to hunt down the Paris prime parts months ago and also tried to get Mag Prime for the longest time. I barely was able to get the former together till I had to grind so much the game started to sicken me and the latter will probably never be finished unless DE puts her back in the drop table with a better grab for parts.

So for the folks with the whole " you guys just want everything within two weeks", do the rest of us a favor and drop that phrase. Many of us farm our brains off to try and get the parts we seek and all the drop table does is give us either useless mods, pitiful amounts of resources, or things that people don't want to trade for. The grind is real in games like this, the only difference is that other companies know how to make it feel like we are not wasting our time and money on it.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I still think the solution to the crap drop rates is void tokens. Something like the void trader only with ALL of the void drops available, then reward tokens based on the tier of the mission, tier 1 exterminate = 1 token, t 2 defense = 2 tokens as a tier 3 reward, tier 3 capture = 3 tokens, etc. No more reward dilution, and every single void mission gets you closer to your goal. They wouldn't have to be cheap, or easy numbers to acquire, but at least you would always know you were making solid forward progress. Right now, it feels like dancing for rain to appease the gods and end a drought. Maybe you are doing some good, or maybe your just a jack hole wearing feathers and beads and shaking a stick at the sky.

Remember when we thought Ducats would be exactly that? Oh us stupid, blindly optimistic Forumers.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

To me this is what makes the game fun. Working hard for what you want. It also keeps me busy.

Pretty sure I don't consider "you could do 40 hours this week and get $10, or 10 minutes and get $10,000" work. That's called gambling, and there's a reason most gamblers don't do too well.

[EChondo]

The only RNG problem I have with this game is Neurodes right now, they've been drastically nerfed.

 

Everything else has been pretty much the same these past months.

[Valiant]

To me this is what makes the game fun. Working hard for what you want. It also keeps me busy.

Problem is that with Warframe the novelty eventually runs very thin rather quickly.

 

I have/had no problem going through Diablo 2 over and over, same stuff continuously, I don't know why but it felt fun and I had a sense of progression too. With Warframe, like recently, I'm bored. Don't know what to do. The game's already given me the finger over Kubrow breeding with it's terrible RNG in terms of imprints.

 

The RNG isn't entirely well balanced, fun or that rewarding.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Naith

[Hypernaut1]

It may run like a dungeon crawler and have some of the main components like one, but the RNG is the worst by far. At least other grind based games try to keep their grind walls separate (e.g. One for loot, one for making / enhancing gear, one for a gacha/ loot box, etc.) while Warframe lumps them all into one area (chance for a key for a void mission you seek + chance for the rotation of items + chance for the item.)

Then you have the problem of lower end drops showing up in the loot table? Most games tend to keep the really common drops out of the higher tier missions and instead replaces them with the lower end rare items. When someone gets multiple forma blue prints or uncommon mods that can be found in lower missions just as easily in a t3 to t4 mission, it feels like bad RNG coding.

As for the trading for what you want, you forget that if you are trading for plat, you need something of value in return. If you got really bad RNG relations with Warframe, you won't have much to trade. This is worse if you are a free player not looking / unable to spend money on plat.

Finally, the whole "ignore the grind and you will get what you seek in time." Is fine and dandy if you never noticed it in the first place. You can set personal goals, limit yourself in what weapons and gear you use, can even try to help newbies in the game; but in the end, the grind will remind you that it is there. I can attest that I used to hunt down the Paris prime parts months ago and also tried to get Mag Prime for the longest time. I barely was able to get the former together till I had to grind so much the game started to sicken me and the latter will probably never be finished unless DE puts her back in the drop table with a better grab for parts.

So for the folks with the whole " you guys just want everything within two weeks", do the rest of us a favor and drop that phrase. Many of us farm our brains off to try and get the parts we seek and all the drop table does is give us either useless mods, pitiful amounts of resources, or things that people don't want to trade for. The grind is real in games like this, the only difference is that other companies know how to make it feel like we are not wasting our time and money on it.

1. Most of the content is not RNG though. There are plenty of weapons and frames you can make while hunting for rares. Upgrading a weapon/WF is not RNG. You make it stronger by using forma. How exactly is this RNG far worse than most ARPGs?

 

 

2. "lower end drops" showing up in the loot table? No matter what drops, you would consider it lower end if its common. Rare items would stay rare no matter what. So lower end drops in the loot table doesnt make a difference.

 

3. i made most of my plat (3k+) from non-RNG syndicate mods and weapons. And there are plenty of easy to get rare mods that can go for 5p. Those add up over time.

 

4. Its your fault for grinding until the game sickens you. I do my fair share of grinding too, but if its not my day, its not my day. i dont play a mission until i get salty. There is so much more to do. i havent gotten Ash prime yet, but i leveled my Equinox in the meantime. Its not like regular Ash isnt viable. Anything in this game that is necessary (besides catalyst/reactors) is relatively easy to get.

 

5. what is this other company with a game that has perfect grind? The grind in this game is nothing compared to MOST games of this type that i have played for 2k+ hours. The game is ABOUT grinding for gear. Without it, it would be a 10-12 hr game at best. Its the nature of the game.

[MumblesMcphatty]

The RNG for Prime parts is not that bad - its simply perceived to be worse than it is because people insist on rolling that dice repeatedly. Even though anyone who's played a game of chance or D&D knows there are just times you need to step away from the table and not pick up the dice. Because they're gonna kick you in the nuts again - some days are like that. 

 

Granted - weighted tables make it worse - both in feeling and actuality. Regardless the Prime farm is completely overblown by the community because they must have everything new NOW - and then everyone tends to overdo it on a handful of missions. Likewise for Mesa - which was and is still grossly over-exaggerated. 

 

Patience is most definitely a virtue in this instance. 

 

The grind here is almost irrelevant compared to many or most other F2P games. Sure you have a right to complain about it - but I doubt it will make a change. Players and their willingness to gamble is the core of any freemium's profit margin - if you don't like it - stick to buying finished titles with the cost all up front. 

 

Now - the mod drop system on the other hand - certain things really need to be looked at. Too many fundamental mods are classed as "rare" and their acquisition should not be left to weighted chance. Stances and the like I'm somewhat ok with being hard to get ... but to go more than a year of play and never see something as essential as Rage - its not right. 

[noveltyhero]

A lot of MMOs do have RNG but also have this "bar" of progress, i.e grinding levels etc. it will take a long time but you know what you are getting at the end of it.

 

Also MMOs tend to be open world, which makes the grind feel less strong, in Warframe the grind feels even bigger due to deja vu you get when you repeat the exact same mission the exact same way, exact same loadout/playstyle/gameplay and instructions from Lotus :/

[Looopeh]

The RNG idea is great, the only problem is how it works in Warframe, some people get that one rare item in 1 or 2 runs and some people play literally 88 times the same mission to get it