Law Of Retribution - A Terrible, Boring Experience

[BlackCoMerc]

The Raid is boring. Its a linear trek through the same scripted sequences every single time. Utterly without any of the unscripted moments that make Warframe fun. There exists one best method for tackling it, and that method is used every single time to bypass enemies and waltz to the boss without any sense of threat or conflict or challenge whatsoever.

 

This happened because players have "cracked" your Raid. They have studied it and developed a best practice approach for conquering it. Which is pathetically simple to do, since its utterly the same every single run.

 

But that's not the worst of it. The worst of it is, you knew this would happen. You HAD TO know. Because its happened with other Raid in every other MMO ever made. Every one. Ever. 

 

And you still wasted countless man hours of development time on a mission that might be fun once. Only ever once. Maybe.

 

Except it wasnt. Not even the first time. 

 

First, we have 'hacking the impossible-to-find terminals' amidst rampant high level enemies. Yes, because ignoring the enemies in a game in favor of yet another terrible hacking mini game (is there any other kind) is fun. Sure. 

 

Then its on to standing on pressure plates, one player at time, completely unable to move and waiting for some scripted sequence of lights to tell the next player where to stand. In a game that prides itself on movement and making players feel like Ninja, you did THIS. This is...frankly, its insulting and offensive and just a decision so poor I fail to see how it made the final cut. 

 

Consider that the first player to stand on a pressure plate can stand there for minutes at a time, literally - LITERALLY - doing nothing. 

 

Next, we come to the awful Hijack portion of the mission. We literally have to walk a huge object across a room for...reasons. While having Mirage and Loki or Nyx keep enemies we dont even WANT to fight on lockdown, so Trinity can use them for perpetual fountains of energy. 

 

Finally, its on to yet another poorly designed, unfun, terrible "Warframe Boss." That's going Meme, DE. "Warframe Boss" will soon be slang for uninteresting boss fights where developers artificially stretch out the time required to win the fight through forced invincibility phases, regenerating health and annoying "minion phases" during which the boss isnt even present or does not engage or allow engagement. And dont forget those pressure plates, because if there is one thing players love, its standing still and doing NOTHING in a game.

 

This is the opposite of good, interesting enemy design. IF you must have bosses, see Dark Souls or maybe - MAYBE -the Borderlands games, for some inspiration on the not-exactly-daunting task of making better boss fights. 

 

 

 

So to sum up:

 

-Best practice approach means doing the same thing, every time. Its boring and not worth running a second time.

 

-Too much standing still, doing literally nothing

 

-Another frustrating boss fight with a forced invulnerable stage that adds nothing at all fun to the battle

 

I hope this Raid is not the future direction of Warframe. I highly doubt a lot of players want it to be.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Current raid is indeed a terrible experience, but at least most of the rewards that do not suck have rather minor effect on the game (except for a bunch of borderline broken combinations on certain warframes).

 

On top of that, no boss ever should have forced invincibility, no, no enemy ever should have forced invincibility.

Huge damage reduction for a valid reason? Sure, blocking damage from the front like Bursas? Annoying but fine, we can jump around it.

Invulnerability is especially painful when something goes completely apeS#&$ crazy and game refused to accept any damage for whatever reason, like Lech Kril or Sprag+Venkra.

 

I wonder if DE is going to create a boss with an environment that randomly kills players instantly, without any counters, something akin to Ceres thunderstorm we have now.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Mofixil

[egregiousRac]

The reason that enemies are so high of level and the boss is stupid is for the same reason as many other issues in this game:

The mod system is screwed up so badly that it trivializes everything.

 

When you have this many stacked multipliers, you end up with wildly inconsistent power, and weapons that destroy everything too quickly to have any challenge. By scaling the enemies to the point that they take some work to kill, you end up with enemies that oneshot players.

DE's method for toning down maxed player power without hurting non-maxed power has been damage caps and invulnerability stages. Their method for dealing with missions being too easy to complete is diluting drop tables. The list goes on and on.

 

If DE fixed the modding system, the game would be much healthier in every way.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

If I may, this mission is the first of its kind. The devs can take information from this to make better trials in the future. Also if you feel the need to complain to this extent you could also provide some examples of what actually could change it so that it IS interesting to you. Negative feedback without suggestions for improvements achieves little.

[-DM-Mordred]

I dont think that emulating Borderland's way to create bosses is the way to go... basically the only thing they do is create bullet sponges  (until Zer0 with a pimpernel and the "B0re" skill show up... then everything gets oneshoted)

 

Edit: typo

Edited August 20, 2015 by KillMePlis

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Negative feedback without suggestions for improvements achieves little.

Boring, completely linear map sprinkled with OHK tanks that players ignore with excessive CC just to get to some hidden console to be able to progress.

 

Second phase in its entirety is a joke, game with such emphasize on movement and looking cool and edgy while killing stuff makes you stay in place for extended periods of time while dodging stuff you were supposed to kill.

 

Then there's Hijack phase, filled with buttons you need to find and stand on them for quite some time, especially painful in nightmare where failing to get on a button in time results in instant fail.

 

Then there's bossfight, filled with, you guessed it, damn game of hide and seek with the detonator and a bunch of buttons while being attacked by hordes of braindead instakill turrets wandering around.

 

AND THEN THERE'S THIS DAMN IMPREGNABLE TO DAMAGE PARROT.

 

The one thing that saves 90% of players in Raid are lags, caused by insane hardware strain, especially on host's end.

 

DE could easily make a raid based purely on parkour and puzzles (really, you've spent so much time creating speedruns for void) instead of spamming CC ability everywhere just not to get instakilled by some stray bullet.

 

DE should really try something else than endless waves of high level enemies, why not try a gamemode with finite number of enemies? Experienced players would rush straight through them to finish given tasks, while everyone else would have the ability to remove all of these annoyances and actually think how to solve given riddle, without resorting to forum and video guides.

 

Like, how about Corpus raid where some player would have to know Corpus alphabet to decipher if what they seek is this or that way? Why the hell not? Some other kind of challenge other than spamming CC and pumping lead into some bullet sponge.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Mofixil

[(PSN)HyperInfestation]

 

 

So to sum up:

 

 

 

-Too much standing still, doing literally nothing

 

 

 

So YOU are the Guy that everyone yells at during the raid to "DO SOMETHING"!   Thanks for summing that up for us.  Standing around while your buddies hack all the panels,  Stand on the buttons, Carry Bombs, Mark Puzzle Pc's.   Yeah that sounds like the perfect Gaming Strategy......Keep a look out for this guy in recruiting.  

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Boring, completely linear map sprinkled with OHK tanks that players ignore with excessive CC just to get to some hidden console to be able to progress.

 

Second phase in its entirety is a joke, game with such emphasize on movement and looking cool and edgy while killing stuff makes you stay in place for extended periods of time while dodging stuff you were supposed to kill.

 

Then there's Hijack phase, filled with buttons you need to find and stand on them for quite some time, especially painful in nightmare where failing to get on a button in time results in instant fail.

 

Then there's bossfight, filled with, you guessed it, damn game of hide and seek with the detonator and a bunch of buttons while being attacked by hordes of braindead instakill turrets wandering around.

 

AND THEN THERE'S THIS DAMN IMPREGNABLE TO DAMAGE PARROT.

 

The one thing that saves 90% of players in Raid are lags, caused by insane hardware strain, especially on host's end.

 

DE could easily make a raid based purely on parkour and puzzles (really, you've spent so much time creating speedruns for void) instead of spamming CC ability everywhere just not to get instakilled by some stray bullet.

 

DE should really try something else than endless waves of high level enemies, why not try a gamemode with finite number of enemies? Experienced players would rush straight through them to finish given tasks, while everyone else would have the ability to remove all of these annoyances and actually think how to solve given riddle, without resorting to forum and video guides.

 

Like, how about Corpus raid where some player would have to know Corpus alphabet to decipher if what they seek is this or that way? Why the hell not? Some other kind of challenge other than spamming CC and pumping lead into some bullet sponge.

I fail to see how quoting me for that was relevant, I still see only complaints mixed with some very vague ideas. If you truly can find everything wrong with this surely you can design something better hmm?

[[DE]Grzegorz]

So YOU are the Guy that everyone yells at during the raid to "DO SOMETHING"!   Thanks for summing that up for us.  Standing around while your buddies hack all the panels,  Stand on the buttons, Carry Bombs, Mark Puzzle Pc's.   Yeah that sounds like the perfect Gaming Strategy......Keep a look out for this guy in recruiting.  

Raid quite literally requires just 3 active people at most to do everythig.

The other 5 are here just to increase the chance of failure due to either incompetence, or random variables.

 

 

 

I fail to see how quoting me for that was relevant, I still see only complaints mixed with some very vague ideas. If you truly can find everything wrong with this surely you can design something better hmm?

I surely wouldn't mind testing something completely different and new, ba, if I were in charge, the first version of raid would be very simplistic in design, basically corridors covered in dev textures just to see how players react and adapt, like you know, how beta should work.

 

Why base everything at either killing stuff, or keeping that stuff stunlocked so it doesn't instakill you and your entire team?

Neither instakills nor invulnerability phases are fun, especially if enemy has access to them at any given time while the player either has no equivalent or requires some mating-dance to achieve similar effect.

 

Everything gets boring after a while, especially when in huge doses, but Warframe is extensive enough to supply gameplay ideas that are not completely based on killing stuff in various ways, like that Corpus deciphering I mentioned, and I mean, some player should spend some time actually learning that alphabet instead of waiting for the plot device to fill the progress bar.

 

Somewhat randomized, stealth/sabotage/sandbox raid, basically X scenarios filled into a single level, here's your task, here's what you can do, here's your reward.

 

Of course, everything would get cheesed by the community, because efficiency and rushing for cool stuff, but it would be fun while it lasted.

 

I'm basically trying to turn Warframe raids into a Metal Gear game.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Mofixil

[(PSN)HyperInfestation]

Raid quite literally requires just 3 active people at most to do everythig.

The other 5 are here just to increase the chance of failure due to either incompetence, or random variables.

 

Nothing to argue with there........Cept Who runs the Raid with 8 People these days?    4-6  is most I'll run with......8 is a waste of time.......Too much to do to WASTE TIME on this Game.......

[_Je_Suis_Bruxelles_]

Tbh, I kinda like raids.If for no other reason ,because I need to rely on at least 2 other players.I can tackle pretty much any other mission by myself or with randoms.

 

,

[Eldnacpeek]

I hope this Raid is not the future direction of Warframe. I highly doubt a lot of players want it to be.

 

 

J3's Trial not so far from now (17.5) will most likely be the exact same thing except replace Grineer with Infested (level 80 Infested and unavoidable Ancient/Charger auras/MOA tar/MOA swarms, AKA worse).

[BlackCoMerc]

So YOU are the Guy that everyone yells at during the raid to "DO SOMETHING"!   Thanks for summing that up for us.  Standing around while your buddies hack all the panels,  Stand on the buttons, Carry Bombs, Mark Puzzle Pc's.   Yeah that sounds like the perfect Gaming Strategy......Keep a look out for this guy in recruiting.  

 

I have stood on pressure plates, hacked the consoles - or tried to find them, anyway - held off enemies with Nyx and Loki and walked behind that stupid hijack thing twice. 

 

No, I dont do nothing. THe problem is that everything this raid has to do, is boring.

[BlackCoMerc]

If I may, this mission is the first of its kind. The devs can take information from this to make better trials in the future. Also if you feel the need to complain to this extent you could also provide some examples of what actually could change it so that it IS interesting to you. Negative feedback without suggestions for improvements achieves little.

 

That's just it, though. This isnt the first mission of its kind. Maybe its the first of its kind in Warframe. But every MMO has Raids. And all those Raids feature best-method strategies to run the same level and beat the same boss time and again. This was the same mistake other devs have made time and again in other games and still no one learns from it.

 

What we need is something new. 

 

Like an endless mission where we dont babysit coffins or imaginary numbers. Big, open maps to explore that we can search for loot caches and hidden rare containers whilst devling deeper toward ever tougher enemies. 

 

Warframe shines brightest in unscripted situations where players are on the move, taking down enemies and never know quite for certain what comes next. This Raid is the very opposite of what makes this game so good, so why bother.

[anamethisis]

I don't like how it has Invite only option for clans/random recruits from recruiting chats. I hate that invite only matchmaking system is not set to public like normal missions, ill never get to do this raid because of  lack of hosters/lag why are there no dedicated servers for raids yet even though there's one for relays? BS eh? The reason why i want public matchmaking options instead of stupid invite only crap is ya know some of us hardcore players are shy.Can't believe i'm doing this because i am one of them and hate having to come to forums and speak up about this stuff. If both raids and the new one that comes get public matchmaking options with a mastery rank requirement of 10+ like relays would be nice or how much mastery rank they can set is up to them really, uhh if this ever happens i doubt it will never happen year of quality huh yea i'll believe it when it happens. I also hate being spammed in recruiting chat we need more public matchmaking options instead of invite only.

Edited August 21, 2015 by anamethisis

[rockscl]

you know ,first i was in rage mode about t hate you, but then i was like "what if those terminals were in movement, so one has to have decent parkour to get to them, then hack them in like 5 seconds", after that, i was pulled back into my memories to playing super mario, and how those harder levels were mainly a movement system challenge that never expired, it was always new, dodging missiles, getting over platforms, the approeach was the same but the level was always changing, so now, De has strategic and kinda puzzle design. they could also make it changing, in movement, not just physical, anyway, that "cracking" the raid is something impossible to avoid as long as the main risk (after the strategical part is done) are mobs that are turned into nothing by bastille by example

Edited August 22, 2015 by rockscl

[Twistedsparkle]

unfortunately I have to agree with op
my first ever raid was a literally running through everything

our raid managers specifically told NOT TO KILL ANYTHING   except for scorpions and nullifier thingies

so.... spending about 20 minutes of running,spamming cc,doing annoying minigames and puzzles only to end up with dissapointing puzzle boss
....without killing almost anything....

I would like my raids to be all about combat,survival and actual teamwork
just armies of elite enemies with multiple hard boss fights without ridiculous god mode phases or puzzles

hopefully one day :S

[BlackCoMerc]

unfortunately I have to agree with op

my first ever raid was a literally running through everything

our raid managers specifically told NOT TO KILL ANYTHING   except for scorpions and nullifier thingies

so.... spending about 20 minutes of running,spamming cc,doing annoying minigames and puzzles only to end up with dissapointing puzzle boss

....without killing almost anything....

I would like my raids to be all about combat,survival and actual teamwork

just armies of elite enemies with multiple hard boss fights without ridiculous god mode phases or puzzles

hopefully one day :S

 

I think we are on the same page here.

 

That said, please do see my new suggestion regarding a change to Survival missions. I think you might like it!

 

Also, thanks for chiming in.

[-skimmer-]

eh, it was fun on launch day. Then people "ruined" it by watching guides on youtube and picking only optimal frames. The raids really need few random factors to keep them fun.

Edited August 23, 2015 by -skimmer-

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

eh, it was fun on launch day. Then people "ruined" it by watching guides on youtube and picking only optimal frames. The raids really need few random factors to keep them fun.

As someone who avoided the guides and running Loki, I find this hard to believe. I ran one for the first time a few days ago, and even though we didn't follow the no kill rule, it was mostly just annoying. Practically mandatory CC spam to the point where enemies looked like rainbows from the energy colors, confusing challenges that weren't actually any fun to solve, and a punishment for failure that was honestly absurd (failing after an hour of play and not even getting to keep the key, much less restart the phase) just made this frustrating and boring. I understand why some of the decisions were made; DE probably realized they couldn't make the enemies both challenging and fun with the absurd amount of player power, so they tried to choose challenging and make the enemies powerful without being central to the Trial. I don't think it worked.

[TaylorsContraction]

Agree that the mission is boring. Having said that, those of us who run them daily want to do them as efficiently as possible because they aren't a whole lit iof fun. It's more grind. I think as with everything DE will go back eventually and change the trials with various additions or subsections.