Multishot Mods Are A Problem. And It's Going To Get Worse.

[FelisImpurrator]

3) It's a Chance to cause multiple bullets. Reducing this to very low numbers is again a dance with RNG. Do you have the OS with your 100s reloding weapon or do you die trying the second shot?

The game should not be balanced around oneshots. Either ours or the enemies'.

 

Simple as that.

 

If the game weren't balanced around oneshotting enemies before they oneshot you, even at high levels, none of this would ever be an issue.

[Lord_Xenon]

This is actually a very good idea. On a normal weapon it does not lead to dmg spikes, however status weapons or launchers like Tonkor or Kulstar will benefit from additional projectiles. This would make multishot not a mandatory on every weapon, but still valuable on some weapons.

 

Guys? You know that the crit chance and Statuschance is divided to all shots? So this is nothing new to the multishot.

Why it reflect an increades status chance? Because to show what can happen with 1 shot dealed.

Why it doesn't increase Critchance? Because crit is for every shot calculated and it doesn't crit on all at the same time. So saying you have 184% Critchance due Multishot would lie to the user, thinking his weapon deal red crits + crit multiplier all the time only because 2 of the 3 total shots will likely crit every time.

 

The only thing they could do is to add a Bullet, but with weaker damage and status to reflect a % Chance. But this would decrease damage spikes(useful for OS) but would mean constant DPM.

 

@Above: You don't get the point. What this damage reduce cause is a gap movement. At point x you OS enemy y. At point z you need only 2 instead of 3 shots for enemy a. And so on.

Weaken builds for the uselessness of some people isn't useful at all. Remind me at the WoW mindest of Q.Q Healer want to be DPS with nerfing the healing of their class as payout.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Lord_Xenon

[FelisImpurrator]

And no. It isn't best way to restrict content of endgame because some minddumb person NEED to bring in mods useless in Coop play. You can play with ever mod you want - just don't with people really want to play. Non-public is your way to go.

Before insulting people by calling them dumb and useless, you might want to review your grammar. Just saying.

 

Apparently, though, you don't seem to get that if weapon damage were rebalanced, enemies would also be changed. The only "challenge" in the game shouldn't come from level 100 enemies you're not even supposed to encounter, and it should be more interesting than "They're challenging because if they shoot you, you die instantly". There IS NO CHALLENGE in low levels because your overpowered guns murder everything by pointing in their general direction, which is why people feel the need to go to level 80 just for that. That's the problem.

[Lord_Xenon]

Before insulting people by calling them dumb and useless, you might want to review your grammar. Just saying.

 

Apparently, though, you don't seem to get that if weapon damage were rebalanced, enemies would also be changed. The only "challenge" in the game shouldn't come from level 100 enemies you're not even supposed to encounter, and it should be more interesting than "They're challenging because if they shoot you, you die instantly". There IS NO CHALLENGE in low levels because your overpowered guns murder everything by pointing in their general direction, which is why people feel the need to go to level 80 just for that. That's the problem.

 

Then strip off damage mods and use whatever you want for challenge.

You don't build for power to lose against weak enemies, because you lose the power again.

And nope. Changing weak enemies only support newbies with weak/non mods. This doesn't help those, that already have the most power. They are just #*($%%@ with such a change. For what? That the level say 30 instead of 80?!

 

Why should DE implement Prime Mods??? They give more power for the actual slot. Do we need to remove them too now???

[FelisImpurrator]

 

Let's put it another way. Say we remove damage mods, but make weapon damage increase with rank or something. Then we change enemies so a level 5 enemy is challenging to a new player, but a level 40 enemy is challenging for a player with maxed mods, and let's just assume no one needs to go to 80 for any reason, because Starchart 3.0 is next update.

 

What's the difference? You have one or two or three extra mod slots, but high level players get to the same level of challenge faster, because what you can only get from running 60 minute Void now you can get by running regular starchart missions or even 20/40 minutes. What do you lose, besides more numbers?

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

The problem with this game is basic stats that should be tied to a weapon are turned into a mod. The biggest offender of this are crit weapons. The weapons aren't naturally good and made better by the use of crit mods, they are an empty shell of a weapon until you fit in the missing pieces of the puzzle.

[Rebellis]

I've gotten a few people into the game, but every one of them quickly stopped playing mostly because of the mod system. It's not intuitive, and gathering the gazillion fusion cores needed to level up all the required mods, not to mention acquiring some of them in the first place, is a long boring grind because the game is so monotonous. From Mercury to Pluto, once the short little intro story ends, all the missions are basically the same. Even void missions, which you would think would be special, are just as monotonous.

 

The situation gets made worse when the mods you now have make you and your weapons completely OP versus 90% of the enemies you will ever face in the game, and the last 10% that represents any challenge takes almost an hour of stale repetitive camping playing to reach. It's a system that's super boring and super broken.

 

And don't even get me started on how long build times are for things like forma or new warframes, or how Raids are suppose to be end game when, aside from worrying about trolls, all you do is spam ults and 4 CP auras make it feel like you're playing a low level Earth mission.

 

IMO, the only RNG game that's been enjoyable have been the Borderlands series.

[Lord_Xenon]

Let's put it another way. Say we remove damage mods, but make weapon damage increase with rank or something. Then we change enemies so a level 5 enemy is challenging to a new player, but a level 40 enemy is challenging for a player with maxed mods, and let's just assume no one needs to go to 80 for any reason, because Starchart 3.0 is next update.

 

What's the difference? You have one or two or three extra mod slots, but high level players get to the same level of challenge faster, because what you can only get from running 60 minute Void now you can get by running regular starchart missions or even 20/40 minutes. What do you lose, besides more numbers?

 

What do you mean with Rank? Weapon rank --> easy achieveable.

Master Rank? Some aren't high in MR but have more powerful weapons as one next to 19/20. So you will penalize them, just because they blow out the crap of mastery fodder???

And if you make the limit very low --> again noone would really be rewarded for farming/buying them.

So NO. Especially with upcoming stronger Prime modvariants of existing elementmods and so on.

I don't need reloadspeed on a weapon, that already reload fast, just because someone 'want' it to be metaplay instead of damage.

What such players lose? The fun. Hey why we don't restrict all sprinters to only jogging? And then we just pass what is 'needed' to be the best??? Do you think it's fun for those athletes?

 

@Above: If it's boring to be so powerful, then strip off mods from your weapons/frames. I'm not enyoing needing 2 hits for a lowbob enemy because some guys mean 'Oh it must be a challenge!!!' to fight some guys in midrange.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Lord_Xenon

[FelisImpurrator]

 

No, weapon rank. Mastery Rank? Ew. And it's only "easy" to get weapon ranks because of places like Draco. They also need to fix XP so no one can camp Draco and get to rank 30 in 40 minutes, but it also doesn't take three days just to max out one weapon.

 

And... what are you talking about? I didn't say "cap it at weaker enemies". I said "fix it so that the enemies we fight in endgame are challenging without forcing us to wait for 35 minutes of boring weak crap". You like hanging around for more than half an hour before anything high level shows up? Well, fine, that's your opinion, but what if I want to cut the crap and start having the fun enemies by 20+ minutes?

 

To use your analogy - hey, why don't we force all sprinters to walk slowly for 35 minutes, then suddenly make them go straight to a dead sprint until they fall over? And why don't we put tripwires on the ground at 35 minutes so if they slip once, they'll crack their skulls on the ground? Welcome to the current state of Warframe scaling.

[Rebellis]

@Above: If it's boring to be so powerful, then strip off mods from your weapons/frames. I'm not enyoing needing 2 hits for a lowbob enemy because some guys mean 'Oh it must be a challenge!!!' to fight some guys in midrange.

 

Suggesting that option only further proves the game and its mod system is completely broken, which it is.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Rebellis

[Lord_Xenon]

No, weapon rank. Mastery Rank? Ew. And it's only "easy" to get weapon ranks because of places like Draco. They also need to fix XP so no one can camp Draco and get to rank 30 in 40 minutes, but it also doesn't take three days just to max out one weapon.

 

And... what are you talking about? I didn't say "cap it at weaker enemies". I said "fix it so that the enemies we fight in endgame are challenging without forcing us to wait for 35 minutes of boring weak crap". You like hanging around for more than half an hour before anything high level shows up? Well, fine, that's your opinion, but what if I want to cut the crap and start having the fun enemies by 20+ minutes?

 

To use your analogy - hey, why don't we force all sprinters to walk slowly for 35 minutes, then suddenly make them go straight to a dead sprint until they fall over? And why don't we put tripwires on the ground at 35 minutes so if they slip once, they'll crack their skulls on the ground? Welcome to the current state of Warframe scaling.

 

So a newbie should be at 40% Power of the best players can achieve? What's the logic behind that?

 

If you wait for challenging enemies, then you play again with the false mind. Strip off mods and enjoy your level 30 challenge! Then you don't need to wait for lvl 80 to rip through your team. Oh wait... does your team really want to fail because of your MINDSET?

 

Sprinters needs to qualify to run with the best. They don't come to Olympia from the birth.

 

@Above: Nope this doesn't. It only prove, that you aren't weak anymore. Don't force other to get stomped because you want to fail.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Lord_Xenon

[(XBOX)ADRENALIN]

No, just no, stop it, we like our multi-shot, and we will love our multi-shot for melee. You don't have to use multi-shot if you don't like it. You can nerf your damage all you like because you refuse to play by the rules of Warframe meta. I been a founder for 2 years and we always had multi shot. Why remove something thats always been there? Just because you don't like it? Get out of here. lol Nobody wants any damage mods removed. Removing mods makes the game less fun!

 

There are enough of these duplicate threads as it is. Removing mods makes the game less diverse and soon there will only be enough mods to fill the mods slots because if they listen to you there would be nothing unique about mods the less we have. Personally I love seeing double the pellets being shot out of my shotgun thanks!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^BOTTOM LINE.. THANK YOU AND EXACTLY..^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

Forgive me for not reading all 5 pages of this thread, but I don't think multishot is a problem.  The problem with Serration, Pressure point, etc, is that they are STRAIGHT damage boosts.  Your weapon is guaranteed to do %more damage.  If everyone is boosting up serration and pressure point and hornet strike to max anyway, why not just incorporate those damage boosts into the weapons themselves?

 

Split chamber appears to affect your damage stats, but it's only a percent chance that it will proc.  Yes, 90% means "probably always" but it's not a guarantee of "always."  

 

The only time multishot is a direct damage boost is when it's applied to shotguns, when %more pellets shoot out (because Tenno don't believe in slugs).  Even then, it's not a direct damage boost because there's no guarantee that all the pellets will connect.

 

Elemental damage mods are also not direct damage boosts.  Yes, there is a fixed number damage that goes into it, but some enemies are stronger against some elements than others.  Maybe I haven't played enough endgame, but I feel like aside from Serration and the "straight damage" mods, the mod system is fine.

[Rebellis]

 Nope this doesn't. It only prove, that you aren't weak anymore. Don't force other to get stomped because you want to fail.

 

Do you honestly believe what you're saying?

 

No one is going to leave off mods they've spent a lot of time and effort acquiring, leveling up, and (more importantly) potatoed and forma'd their warframe or weapon to use.

 

Furthermore, it's not my job to have to correct what the devs have broken.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Rebellis

[Ezariel]

MULTISHOT MODS ARE A PROBLEM

 

Solution for everyone who have this problem: Don't use multishot mods.

 

But there is some other solutions, what can solve this issue generaly.

 

1. Add 2 slots for items

 

2. Rework all weapons

[Lord_Xenon]

Do you honestly believe what you're saying?

 

No one is going to leave off mods they've spent a lot of time and effort acquiring, leveling up, and (more importantly) potatoed and forma'd their warframe or weapon to use.

 

Furthermore, it's not my job to have to correct what the devs have broken.

 

And why then nerf it for people wanting them? You contradict yourself with such a statement.

Sorry that a lvl 30 mage isn't so weak as a lvl 1 and OS lvl 5 mobs while lvl 1 doesn't do it. So why should I lose 300%+ power because some people want it just for a brainless challenge, which they can easily achieve by themself???

Edited August 31, 2015 by Lord_Xenon

[Rebellis]

MULTISHOT MODS ARE A PROBLEM

 

Solution for everyone who have this problem: Don't use multishot mods.

 

But there is some other solutions, what can solve this issue generaly.

 

1. Add 2 slots for items

 

2. Rework all weapons

 

 

Again, asking people to not use mods they've worked hard to acquire and fit onto their weapons is a little bit like a slap in the face, and a band-aid solution representative of just how broken the system is.

 

Warframe has a progression system where you focus on acquiring warframes, weapons, and mods, leveling them up, applying potatoes and forma so that you can stay longer against higher and higher scaling enemies to acquire more warframes, weapons, and mods. It's a system that eventually spirals out of control and makes fighting lvl 90 enemies essentially a walk in the park, and therein lies the problem.

 

Other games solve the issue by scaling enemies, weapons, and loot based on your character's level. If you're lvl 50, then there's no going back and fighting lvl 3 trash mobs with such powerful gear (like you can in Warframe), and if you're playing co-op then enemies and loot scale based on the highest level person in the squad.

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

Again, asking people to not use mods they've worked hard to acquire and fit onto their weapons is a little bit like a slap in the face, and a band-aid solution representative of just how broken the system is.

So it's a slap in the face to people to tell them not to use their mod, but it's not a slap in the face to ask De to remove even the option of using it?  That's specious reasoning, friend.

[Lord_Xenon]

Again, asking people to not use mods they've worked hard to acquire and fit onto their weapons is a little bit like a slap in the face, and a band-aid solution representative of just how broken the system is.

 

Warframe has a progression system where you focus on acquiring warframes, weapons, and mods, leveling them up, applying potatoes and forma so that you can stay longer against higher and higher scaling enemies to acquire more warframes, weapons, and mods. It's a system that eventually spirals out of control and makes fighting lvl 90 enemies essentially a walk in the park, and therein lies the problem.

 

Other games solve the issue by scaling enemies, weapons, and loot based on your character's level. If you're lvl 50, then there's no going back and fighting lvl 3 trash mobs with such powerful gear (like you can in Warframe), and if you're playing co-op then enemies and loot scale based on the highest level person in the squad.

 

 

I never played any game with endgame chars, that doesn't let me roll over starting mobs. And if you progress in gear so far, that normal endgame is easy, what's the problem?

[Rebellis]

I never played any game with endgame chars, that doesn't let me roll over starting mobs. And if you progress in gear so far, that normal endgame is easy, what's the problem?

 

I have, and it's a lot more fun than falling asleep in the middle of playing a 40 wave T4D.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Rebellis

[Lord_Xenon]

I have, and it's a lot more fun than falling asleep in the middle of playing a 40 wave T4D.

 

Then go back to such games. For me it isn't fun to have 'challenge' for trash mobs called starting mobs.

Ingame there are two scaling levels: A static one(planets) and an infinite one for endless mods.

 

Just because you have boredom other should be penalized by this mindset???

[Rebellis]

Then go back to such games. For me it isn't fun to have 'challenge' for trash mobs called starting mobs.

Ingame there are two scaling levels: A static one(planets) and an infinite one for endless mods.

 

Just because you have boredom other should be penalized by this mindset???

 

Penalized by what?

[[DE]Danielle]

Hey Tenno, I'm seeing a lot of "go read"/"learn to read" posts. Could we continue to the discussion constructively? These remarks do not add to the discussion. Thank you! 

[Lord_Xenon]

Penalized by what?

 

You remove power, which result in longer standing mobs, which results in unnecessary longer fights. What benefit does we have from that? Nothing. Only to see that level 30 mobs are the current level 80 ones??? Not everyone want 'challenge'. Why do you think are 5 waves runs and so ongoing? Because it takes sooo long to fight the mobs... It's done because you have to power to cut fast through them.

[(XBOX)ADRENALIN]

with over 10 million players between the 2 consoles and the computer version, every little change effects many people and the way  they play..

warframe didn't get such a large following by designing a bad game and in my opinion, multishot mods are awesome for the right weapons.

if you don't like using them , then don't!

if you don't have the room to put on mods like hush and ect. then maybe you should petition for a dedicated slot meant for non damage mods and add two more somewhere.. i understand both sides of everybody's thinking, i just don't agree with it.. there are plenty of games out there where the mobs scale the higher you go( minus the mods) and that's why those games are emptying and warframe has been booming.. if you don't see that, then your blind and there's no helping you.. i think this has been talked to death so this is my last post on the subject.. someone mentioned game designers in the past being reactive instead of being proactive and losing gamers that way and i agree they should.. warframe should continue exactly the way they have. its a awesome game and nicely structured. i remember starting this game not having a clue about mods and their significance, so i would hit the auto assign button, until i had about 3 or 400 hours in. now i absolutely get it and thoroughly enjoy building my characters and weapons.

if i have any gripes with the designers it will be because of them changing something that people were complaining about. ie: mag "pull" or coptering. please gamers play games they way they want and use the tools that are giving to them. after about 1500 hundred hours into this game i've seen every nook and cranny of every map in the game, i'll never see anything new unless they design some new tile sets...

when i come across players who use frames that i deem offensive, at the end of the round I leave and find new players. i don't go into the forums and start complaining they need to change the whole game just to make me feel better.

if i complain in the forums , its because of connection problems, glitches and the occasional dingdong who thinks they know better than someone with a handful of computer science degrees , who are also gamers!!

i could have bought two new games with the amount of money i spent on platt, i wanted to reward the makers of the game with my loyalty and bottom line"cash". i hope all the changes moving forward are from with-in and not from pressure from the dingdongs on the outside and more specifically in the forums..