Multishot Mods Are A Problem. And It's Going To Get Worse.

[Ketec]

Base damage mods should be wiped and their bonus added to the weapons as they rank up. Or a separate gauge that fills up with use (not too heavy grind).
Utility mods need to be more attractive (15 % status.. really?).

[Lord_Xenon]

It's very cookie-cutter.

Once you have maxed mods, any potatoed weapon with proper forma will kill any enemy you'll face on non-endless type missions quite easily using a corrosive build. That's because the game is so broken. Enemy scaling is hard set per mission for everyone, and totally ignores how much damage someone has obtained through modding, which can be grossly more than what's needed.

The only time you would need to switch elements would be for long endless corpus missions (core farming Triton) or when using 4 CP auras. Even then it's just a simple matter of replacing a mod or two.

And then there are Raids, which is about as cookie-cutter as it gets. Try joining one with a frame that doesn't fit the mold, and see what happens. If everyone is nice, you won't be asked to leave but you won't be of much help either.

 

Please get rid of your 'ego-challenge' mindset. This is the only thing you seem to bring ever and ever again. We don't build up our power to wait 1 minute to kill that @(*()$ mob we already killed in 1 minute at weaker configs.

 

As Saryn I joined multiple NM and normal Raids and do well because of my hacking skills. You can even solve the raid with just 4 persons and?

 

With your suggestion you would make such components next to impossible or exploitable as hell. What's the benefit of your ego-challenge? I don't see it.

 

@Above: I don't think that you have any clue what you are talking about. What you suggest make weapon extrem stronger.

For shotgun 165%, for rifle 165% and for pistols 220%. Not to count the splitted stats +damage wearing mods. So newbies have it fairly easy to fight lvl 30 mobs with their starter weapon???

Edited September 3, 2015 by Lord_Xenon

[Rebellis]

 

Please get rid of your 'ego-challenge' mindset. This is the only thing you seem to bring ever and ever again. We don't build up our power to wait 1 minute to kill that @(*()$ mob we already killed in 1 minute at weaker configs.

 

As Saryn I joined multiple NM and normal Raids and do well because of my hacking skills. You can even solve the raid with just 4 persons and?

 

With your suggestion you would make such components next to impossible or exploitable as hell. What's the benefit of your ego-challenge? I don't see it.

 

Aside from the personal label, I don't understand that first part.

 

As for using any frame in a Raid, I never said you couldn't.

 

And the last part, aside from the label, could you be a little more specific. What suggestion are you referring to?

Edited September 3, 2015 by Rebellis

[Rebellis]

We don't build up our power to wait 1 minute to kill that @(*()$ mob we already killed in 1 minute at weaker configs.

 

I think what you're saying is you don't potato, forma, and mod to kill low level enemies.

 

Of course not, but the game let's you play against them for loot and resources anyway regardless of your damage output.

 

Proper game balance be damned.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Rebellis

[YasaiTsume]

So Multishot is like the Armor Ignore from Damage 1.0 

Ya ok lol.

Edited September 3, 2015 by YasaiTsume

[Caine2112]

Out of curiosity, who uses Hush on their Boltor Prime?

 

Answer:  No one.  Especially not this Tenno.  But if you want giggles, feel free.  But no one in their right (re: crazy) mind would ever bring a silenced Boltor Prime to a trial or high level sector.

 

And that's a shame, because mid game, I was using Hush for Spy missions just for laughs.  And it was fun sniping targets 50m away with them not knowing where the kill shots were coming from.  I was also the bane of cameras.  :)

 

The point being:  Because we are forced to use multishot and weapon damage enhancement mods, it does leave little room for REAL modding of weapons to make them different from someone else's build.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Caine2112

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

Out of curiosity, who uses Hush on their Boltor Prime?

 

Answer:  No one.  Especially not this Tenno.  But if you want giggles, feel free.  But no one in their right (re: crazy) mind would ever bring a silenced Boltor Prime to a trial or high level sector.

 

And that's a shame, because mid game, I was using Hush for Spy missions just for laughs.  And it was fun sniping targets 50m away with them not knowing where the kill shots were coming from.  I was also the bane of cameras.  :)

 

The point being:  Because we are forced to use multishot and weapon damage enhancement mods, it does leave little room for REAL modding of weapons to make them different from someone else's build.

I put hush on my Vectis for Exterminate missions.  I much prefer it to a bow.  I use it in conjunction with multishot.  I really don't understand people's problems with multishot mods.  If you're bored because the game is too easy, play something else.  I reached a burnout point in Warframe recently, but it had nothing to do with the friggin' mod system.

[motorfirebox]

I really don't understand people's problems with multishot mods. If you're bored because the game is too easy, play something else. I reached a burnout point in Warframe recently, but it had nothing to do with the friggin' mod system.

It's not about ease, it's about lack of variety in viable builds.

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

It's not about ease, it's about lack of variety in viable builds.

Then the problem isn't with multishot, but rather with the relative "viability" of other mods.  Don't nerf Split Chamber, make the other mods better.  I'm still kind of mad that the Synoid Gammacor got such a ridiculous nerf because everybody cried about how OP it was.  Instead of making other secondaries more powerful/fun to use, they just nerfed the one gun.

 

If the other mods that people consider "useless" get improved, then Split Chamber might get out-moded in favor of other mods, allowing for more dynamic builds.

 

Conversely, Split Chamber IS a rare mod.  You have to farm the hell out of General Ruk for it to drop, if you want it that bad.  Part of the balance of the game is the rarity of the mods.  

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

It's not about ease, it's about lack of variety in viable builds.

 

Which wouldn't be any different without multishot mods.

 

Someone would do the math again, find out what gets the best numbers, then a bunch of sheep would follow that and only that while complaining about how there is no variety. There can be variety, but you--and to be clear, you, personally, and I'd say that to every individual because it's not about what other people use--have to accept that things other than min-maxed DPS are viable and then actually use them. Once you do that, suddenly you have all this variety. If you aren't willing to do that, then you're just asking DE to save you from yourself.

 

As long as there are stats, people are going to figure out what gets the best ones. If people weren't so obsessed with getting the orange numbers or wang-measuring survival times, they would be having as much fun as I do.

Edited September 3, 2015 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Troll_Logic]

I've seen Multishot mods as a huge issue in Warframe for a long time. And I'm making this post to try and open the eyes of fellow Tenno to what is actually happening here with your weapon customization and how I think you should be getting more, by getting less.

 

To be clear I am talking about mods like Split Chamber, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent, Hell's Chamber, Dual Rounds and even Scattered Justice. They add multishot to a weapon which is a percent chance of firing two or more bullets using only one ammo and trigger pull/cycle of the action.

 

Why do I see them as a problem?  I am an end game player. I interact with hundreds of other end game players and hundreds more mid game.  The former group has ALL multishot mods on ALL weapons. That means every primary and secondary has every applicable multishot mod on them. The former also has those mods MAX rank. The latter, meaning mid game, tend to use ALL the multishot mods, but differ in that they have them middle rank or so as they have not yet applied enough forma to their favourite weapons.

 

Let me explain what I see: On my Soma I see 7 (seven) mod slots. Not 8 (eight) slots. On my synapse, Cernos, Prisma Gorgon I have 7 mod slots. Not 8 mod slots. In fact, as far as most (Most. Not all MOST) of the end game community is concerned there is no option at all for an 8th (eighth) mod slot BECAUSE going without split chamber is NOT AN OPTION. My Hek has only 6 mod slots. If possible there is no reason on this planet I would go without Scattered Justice. The same goes for Hell's Chamber.     You understand what I'm getting at?

 

Nope.  As near as I can tell, you want an extra mod slot.

[motorfirebox]

Which wouldn't be any different without multishot mods.

Someone would do the math again, find out what gets the best numbers, then a bunch of sheep would follow that and only that while complaining about how there is no variety. There can be variety, but you--and to be clear, you, personally, and I'd say that to every individual because it's not about what other people use--have to accept that things other than min-maxed DPS are viable and then actually use them. Once you do that, suddenly you have all this variety. If you aren't willing to do that, then you're just asking DE to save you from yourself.

As long as there are stats, people are going to figure out what gets the best ones. If people weren't so obsessed with getting the orange numbers or wang-measuring survival times, they would be having as much fun as I do.

That's only true if you use simple stats on all mods. What if you had a choice between 90% multishot, or 150% multishot when firing in the air? Or if the multishot only activated at 20 meters (ie the bullets split after traveling 20m)? I think that would be a real choice. The 'best' build would depend much more on your personal playstyle and skills.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

That's only true if you use simple stats on all mods. What if you had a choice between 90% multishot, or 150% multishot when firing in the air? Or if the multishot only activated at 20 meters (ie the bullets split after traveling 20m)? I think that would be a real choice. The 'best' build would depend much more on your personal playstyle and skills.

 

I don't think mods like that are the solution as they pidgeonhole players in a game where adaptability and applicability are some of the most important strengths. Most people don't use sniper rifles because of their inability to handle crowds or close-range engagements very well. Giving a multishot mod similar weaknesses just lets you turn any weapon into a cumbersome, annoying sniper rifle. It sounds like variety because you imagine a large number of new mods but, like warm coat and aviator, they would be relegated to special snowflake builds and most players would stick with the bonuses that work all the time.

 

I think the solution to power creep and such is to make more original base weapons. I know people aren't so hot on the simulor and buzzlok, but those are weapons that do things other weapons don't. They are valid attempts to provide something new and different, if nothing else. If everything is a hit-scan DPS applier, then the mods are irrelevant. No mods will stop it from being that, BUT if a weapon's basic mechanics are different, then the same mods still get you a different feel.

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

Which wouldn't be any different without multishot mods.

 

Someone would do the math again, find out what gets the best numbers, then a bunch of sheep would follow that and only that while complaining about how there is no variety. There can be variety, but you--and to be clear, you, personally, and I'd say that to every individual because it's not about what other people use--have to accept that things other than min-maxed DPS are viable and then actually use them. Once you do that, suddenly you have all this variety. If you aren't willing to do that, then you're just asking DE to save you from yourself.

 

As long as there are stats, people are going to figure out what gets the best ones. If people weren't so obsessed with getting the orange numbers or wang-measuring survival times, they would be having as much fun as I do.

I feel like you and I said the same thing two different ways.  Instead of removing the multi-shot mods, make it so other mods are worth using OVER multi-shot.  Even something like making elemental mods more effective on different planets (heat/radiation/gas more effective on hot planets, ice/viral more effective on colder planets, as an example).  Something that might balance out the need for that extra bullet.  I'm not a game designer, so I couldn't propose a solution.

 

As a game player, I'm STILL not seeing the problem other than "This game is too easy" or "I want an extra mod slot" or "everyone uses it but I don't have it so it sucks"

[motorfirebox]

I don't think mods like that are the solution as they pidgeonhole players in a game where adaptability and applicability are some of the most important strengths. Most people don't use sniper rifles because of their inability to handle crowds or close-range engagements very well. Giving a multishot mod similar weaknesses just lets you turn any weapon into a cumbersome, annoying sniper rifle. It sounds like variety because you imagine a large number of new mods but, like warm coat and aviator, they would be relegated to special snowflake builds and most players would stick with the bonuses that work all the time.

That depends on how good the bonus on the me specialized mods is.

I think the solution to power creep and such is to make more original base weapons. I know people aren't so hot on the simulor and buzzlok, but those are weapons that do things other weapons don't. They are valid attempts to provide something new and different, if nothing else. If everything is a hit-scan DPS applier, then the mods are irrelevant. No mods will stop it from being that, BUT if a weapon's basic mechanics are different, then the same mods still get you a different feel.

I'm not opposed to that, but I don't see how it's a substantively different goal than mod variety. One is using different weapons to achieve variety, the other is using mods to achieve variety in weapons.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I feel like you and I said the same thing two different ways.  Instead of removing the multi-shot mods, make it so other mods are worth using OVER multi-shot.  Even something like making elemental mods more effective on different planets (heat/radiation/gas more effective on hot planets, ice/viral more effective on colder planets, as an example).  Something that might balance out the need for that extra bullet.  I'm not a game designer, so I couldn't propose a solution.

 

As a game player, I'm STILL not seeing the problem other than "This game is too easy" or "I want an extra mod slot" or "everyone uses it but I don't have it so it sucks"

 

In my second post more than the one you quoted, but yes. Removing or nerfing-through-situationalness multishot mods won't change all that much. People will replace them and find a new best numbers. I don't want nerfs, but I also don't want too many buffs. I mean, let's be reasonable, we are pretty powerful already.

 

But, like I said, I think the path to variety in builds is giving people new things to build off of. You won't consider terminal velocity if a weapon is hitscan, or firestorm if it has no explosive radius; things like that, for the most part.

 

Okay, just off the top of my head for a new and crazy weapon: Grineer Super-Claw. I guess you could call it a gravity gun rip-off. Firing it at an enemy harpoons/claws them and reels them in. You then fire that enemy at other enemies, doing damage proportional to the projectile-enemy's HP... maybe. Or their velocity. Or some other thing. I know it would be funny to bounce half a dozen scorpions off a bombard, or crush a pile of lancers under a napalm's fatness. Maybe the enemy blows up so you want firestorm. Maybe it has a limited range and works on beam effects to sinister reach is beneficial. Who knows? This is something I came up with in the span of eating half a sandwich. I'm not saying it's gold.

 

Most things are just fairly accurate machine guns, so you put on things that benefit fairly accurate machine guns. Not a mod problem that everything is a machine gun.

 

 

 

That depends on how good the bonus on the me specialized mods is.

I'm not opposed to that, but I don't see how it's a substantively different goal than mod variety. One is using different weapons to achieve variety, the other is using mods to achieve variety in weapons.

 

They would need to be very good to justify the hassle and impracticality of constantly jumping to keep your bonus going.

 

And it's different because, well... because I think it would actually work. New guns are also a bit more feasable to produce than overhauling a mod system at this point in the game. Eventually, you need to stop tearing up the foundation even if you're leaning on "it's a beta."

Edited September 3, 2015 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Lord_Xenon]

Out of curiosity, who uses Hush on their Boltor Prime?

 

Answer:  No one.  Especially not this Tenno.  But if you want giggles, feel free.  But no one in their right (re: crazy) mind would ever bring a silenced Boltor Prime to a trial or high level sector.

 

And that's a shame, because mid game, I was using Hush for Spy missions just for laughs.  And it was fun sniping targets 50m away with them not knowing where the kill shots were coming from.  I was also the bane of cameras.  :)

 

The point being:  Because we are forced to use multishot and weapon damage enhancement mods, it does leave little room for REAL modding of weapons to make them different from someone else's build.

 

The funny fact is: You even can build in hush in your boltor. But don't expect, that you kill high level mobs with ease. For low level and mid level mobs a well modded boltor with hush can do it. But again you failed to see the point. WHY do you want your boltor silent? If a weapon is silent or not is a BALANCE parameter. Why do you think that bows have silent noiselevel? To compensate for other weaker parameters they got.

 

You want to disable one innate DISADVANTAGE, but because there are more viable(useful!) mods, you blame these mods??? Giving the opportunity to MOD a silent boltor is a well thought game design. Either you give this or that up. You have the choice, but don't think that other will love all you can do.

 

 

It's not about ease, it's about lack of variety in viable builds.

 

You can build so many variants of builds, but don't think that every build must be perfect for every situation. What rebellis suggest is even removing parts of the variety.

[Z0mb1k]

I think Multishot should drain magazine faster, thus punishing players for missing shots and make them reloading often, that's all. And about damage mods... I have no idea.

[Lord_Xenon]

I think Multishot should drain magazine faster, thus punishing players for missing shots and make them reloading often, that's all. And about damage mods... I have no idea.

 

Basically they are way superior firerate mods? And how do you count the added pellets for shotguns? Every additional pellet consume 1 additional ammo? And what happen if you haven't the ammo in your magazine to fulfill the complete multishot???

[Rebellis]

What rebellis suggest is even removing parts of the variety.

 

I haven't suggested removing anything.

 

You seem to put words in people's mouth in every thread you post.

[Lord_Xenon]

I haven't suggested removing anything.

 

You seem to put words in people's mouth in every thread you post.

 

Please don't lie:

 

It's not multishot that's the problem.

 

It's a broken system that still let's you play against low level enemies, regardless of the amount of damage or survivability you've obtained through modding.

 

There's no sense of proper scaling, and honestly, it's a system that's reached its tipping point.

 

Planet missions become easy, and in endless missions you must wait 30 or 45 minutes before enemies finally do scale to your level.

 

Mastery rank needs to be on a per Warframe basis, and tied to its abilities (which should be a skill tree), as well as tied to enemy scaling. Drop the mod system for weapons altogether (except for elemental modding), and have them scale based on whichever MR you were when you acquired them. Enemy health/armor and damage would need re-tweaking, but for example, if you have a MR 30 Frost, then you have 30 points to apply to his skill tree however you see fit and the enemies you face will range between level 28 - 35. When playing co-op enemies scale based on the highest level player in the squad. That favorite weapon you acquired at MR 24 won't cut it versus level 30 baddies, so farming for a new one becomes a thing. No more blowing through level 6 enemies with a 5 forma Atomos that you applied in a single day because of Draco.

 

I marked your words about removing the variety. A skilltree has no variety to offer to players. A lot of games have this and force the player into one role for every time. Even with a 'skillreset' - which mostly need to waste money, you have never ever the flexibility as warframe offer with their modsystem. Each mod allow you variety and even weaken or removing altogehter the drawback.

[Rebellis]

Please don't lie:

 

 

I marked your words about removing the variety. A skilltree has no variety to offer to players. A lot of games have this and force the player into one role for every time. Even with a 'skillreset' - which mostly need to waste money, you have never ever the flexibility as warframe offer with their modsystem. Each mod allow you variety and even weaken or removing altogehter the drawback.

 

Elemental mods, which I suggested keeping, are typically the only mods players change with weapon loadouts since the three loadouts match the number of different factions - corrosive for infested, mag + toxin for corpus, etc. No real loss by incorporating damage mods into the weapon itself, and you prevent new players from having equally powerful weapons as veteran players by tying weapon and enemy level to Mastery Rank. 

 

Some weapon utility mods (like Firestorm and Sinister Reach for example) could just be integrated into certain weapons, while other utility mods (like Fast Hands, Speed Trigger, and Rifle Aptitude) could be part of a warframe's skill tree so the ability or effect can actually be utilized when it couldn't before.

 

People will progress (instead of sitting at MR 6 or 8 forever) because the more Mastery Rank they have the more points they get to put into their skill tree. I would also change it so MR goes by XP and not by leveling weapons you'll never use which is just silly.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Rebellis

[Unholyrequiem]

This thread is complaining about how multishot is a staple mod because you cannot avoid it. How about serration, hornet strike, pressure point, 2 elemental mods, spoiled strike, 

[kleerr2]

This thread is complaining about how multishot is a staple mod because you cannot avoid it. How about serration, hornet strike, pressure point, 2 elemental mods, spoiled strike, 

 

Just ignore this thread, common sense went out the window the moment this thread was started...

[Rebellis]

Just ignore this thread, common sense went out the window the moment this thread was started...

 

It actually goes out the window the moment someone clicks Install.