Multishot Mods Are A Problem. And It's Going To Get Worse.

[(PSN)Pharen]

I still think augments and damage/multishot mods should be attachable to weapons via another interface.

 

Same as with augments and warframes.

[Jamescell]

Somehow DE hasn't taken notice.... maye they don't want to? They have an amazing track record of not adressing anything really problematic when it comes to  wired-in game mechanics. For them development just seems to be pretty colors and mastery fodder galore.

 

It's a sad day when the chief balancer of Warframe either doesn't undertand or refuses to acknowledge such an obvious problem. Going as far as saying that an expansion of multishot would be a good idea.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Jamescell

[Twistedsparkle]

I can only hope modding will someday actually be modding instead of a question whether to add more damage or not (of course you do)

Edited August 30, 2015 by Twistedsparkle

[ZoneDymo]

I have been saying this for a long time, ultimately nearly all weapons are modded the same.

There just are not enough mods out there right now that can make alternative modding interesting/usefull

 

Might also add that this is the reason we barely ever can make the sacrifice for Augments.

Edited August 30, 2015 by ZoneDymo

[FelisImpurrator]

Without damage mods, weapons like the Soma would be absolutely useless.  Alot of the guns would need some serious buff to base numbers.

That's the point. They'd have some form of innate scaling that means a rank 30 weapon would have as much damage as if it had a maxed Serration on, and enemy scaling would be balanced around that. Personally, I like the idea of eliminating base damage mods, making elemental damage convert instead of adding, and changing multishot to focus on its utility (shot spread regularity, status, etc).

[HurpadurpusRex]

The difference between pressure point and multi strike mods is there are fundemental play style differences when you produce more projectiles.

For example the interaction between multi shot and heavy calibur. Some weapons you may be reluctant to fire with a maxed heavy calibur for

example the ogris, what if your shot flys sideways at 100 yards and you miss your target. But if you add a split chamber to the mix the probability of completely zeroing your dps for the next two seconds of charge are highly deminished.

 

Some more examples of different function through multibullet aplication.

thunder bolt where you increase your chance of having a high damage arrow expload are increased dramatically.

 

the change to you're experience with a shotgun like the tigris, where you change from aiming at the head of one enemy with the certanty of its death, to aiming at the chest with a condifence of getting a truer statistical chance of your bullets hitting the targets in the rear due to increased pellet count, and the ability to physically inflict damage to a larger area than half the bullets would.

Or the drakgoon that depends even further on the random facter of multiple particles.

 

Increasing the ammount of chunks a body is cut into by slash damage weapons so there are more pieces to be looted by necros.

 

The interaction between more bullets and the engery shields of the corpus disruptors.

 

your chances of hitting a target you cant see through a wall increase.

 

If you fire 1 bullet with a wepon that has a 50% status chance you have a 50% chance of applying status. if you fire it with a split chamber that becomes 90% of firing two 50% bullets. Assuming you hit two targets with the spread, you have a one in four chance, nine out of ten times to status proc two targets with one bullet and no penetration. That would be a 0% chance with the removal of multi shot, applying a large nerf to status based weapons.

 

 

 

 

                                                                                       TLDR

All those examples said and done, I think the problem you put forward is very legitimate. The muti shot is to universal and vanilla. It could use a huge rework. Corrupt some of of them. Or make them decrease the total damage of a weapon by 20% then multiply the bullets.

I may dissagree with some of your premise; but its foundation is solid in my eyes. The multi shot should be reworked, to make it less universal. To create a option rather than what is a near imperative for most of the weapons in the game.

Edited August 30, 2015 by HurpadurpusRex

[Kletse]

Warframe's current modding system is a fundamentally good idea that's been doing nothing but chugging lead paint 24/7 for the past 2 years. The idea is to give the player a vast array of possible setups to work with, but due to all the lead paint chugging, the system is somehow even more limiting than something like Destiny's upgrade trees. At least they had a few variable perk choices. The only way I could possibly see the current mod system being salvageable is if every single mod in the game was completely reworked.

The award for best weapon customization system in any game ever is probably tied between Blacklight: Retribution and Loadout, with the former about fine-tuning the stats of your gun to make every single stat exactly what you want it to be, and the latter about drastically altering the nature in which your gun behaves. The best weapon customization system I can conceive of is one that combines Blacklight's finesse with Loadout's endless variety.

Imo you are totally right there. You can't just remove multishot and buff weapon stats. People will only look for the next most powerfull thing. And then you have the same problem with another mod you can't leave out.

[TerrorofDeaths]

simple put you again ask to remove damage mods

geez

i dont see any problems in any damage mods

damage mods is to make each weapon better

[TheBrsrkr]

Small nitpicking here:

Dual Rounds and Hell's Chamber actually have drawbacks that let you consider another mod.. Hell's Chamber adds more pellets, that you have to actually land if you want the damage. An elemental mod would give you more consistent numbers.

As for dual rounds, it's at 30%. That's not really a big chance, and it's perfectly reasonable to say it's on par with most other damage mods. In fact, Archwing, for all it's flaws, has the most balanced damage of all the (PvE) game modes.

A solution to this would just be to reduce multi shot chance until it's a choice, rather than a requirement. Something like 45% for Split Chamber, and 90% in total with both pistol multi shot mods.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

simple put you again ask to remove damage mods

geez

i dont see any problems in any damage mods

damage mods is to make each weapon better

Don't fool yourself, the game is balanced with the assumption you've loaded up on damage mods. They improve our weapons only as much as the improve enemy effective health, because they have to. If we had no damage mods, do you think we'd just do 0 damage against level 30 enemies? Of course not; we'd either have more innate weapon damage or level 30 would be much weaker numerically, leading to the same gameplay effect. Meanwhile everybody mods exactly the same way, so there's no build diversity, no gameplay benefit, and few real customization options.

[Lord_Xenon]

Small nitpicking here:

Dual Rounds and Hell's Chamber actually have drawbacks that let you consider another mod.. Hell's Chamber adds more pellets, that you have to actually land if you want the damage. An elemental mod would give you more consistent numbers.

As for dual rounds, it's at 30%. That's not really a big chance, and it's perfectly reasonable to say it's on par with most other damage mods. In fact, Archwing, for all it's flaws, has the most balanced damage of all the (PvE) game modes.

A solution to this would just be to reduce multi shot chance until it's a choice, rather than a requirement. Something like 45% for Split Chamber, and 90% in total with both pistol multi shot mods.

 

You don't get the point of multishot.

1) It need to hit with the added bullets.

2) It add STATUS too.

3) It's a Chance to cause multiple bullets. Reducing this to very low numbers is again a dance with RNG. Do you have the OS with your 100s reloding weapon or do you die trying the second shot?

Out of multi pellets spamming weapon it's a RNG mod.

4) It doesn't have 'DR'. Because if you have 300% element, you have 400% in total of damage, but adding 100% element only increase your damage with 25% instead of 100%. If you would remove 150% element of the 300% and add 100% multishot, you would have the same % damage, but extra damage would be way higher as the 'DR' part is not so existent. This is why +damage +element +multishot is the best modding for damage due reduced 'DR'.

 

So it isn't multishot the problem, it's the problem of stacking only one source of damage that is way underpowered.

[7grims]

Without damage mods, weapons like the Soma would be absolutely useless.  Alot of the guns would need some serious buff to base numbers.  Soma is only good with critical and damage mods jacking it's damage out of the gutter.  Even that 100 round mag means nothing when you need all of it to kill 1 or 2 guys.

 

Hey captain obvious, of course the game would change and of course everything would have to be re-balanced.

Or else no would be able to play beyond saturn or beyond T2.

I didn't mention it cause... darn, its pretty obvious.

 

 

 

I can only hope modding will someday actually be modding instead of a question whether to add more damage or not (of course you do)

 

THIS^

Sums it up pretty well, how bad the current mod system is.

 

 

 

simple put you again ask to remove damage mods

geez

i dont see any problems in any damage mods

damage mods is to make each weapon better

 

No one is debating that damage mod are making weapons do more damage.

The debate is that current mod system is not achieving its purpose (build diversity), the devs went to the trouble of removing the skill tree, to create a mod system to end up with it working exactly like a skill tree.

Because all the mods you do equip are basic stat increase items (which is what a skill tree does), and whiteout these you cannot, you really cant, play all the content, because these are mandatory and essential for basic gameplay.

Edited August 30, 2015 by 7grims

[TheBrsrkr]

You don't get the point of multishot.

1) It need to hit with the added bullets.

2) It add STATUS too.

3) It's a Chance to cause multiple bullets. Reducing this to very low numbers is again a dance with RNG. Do you have the OS with your 100s reloding weapon or do you die trying the second shot?

Out of multi pellets spamming weapon it's a RNG mod.

4) It doesn't have 'DR'. Because if you have 300% element, you have 400% in total of damage, but adding 100% element only increase your damage with 25% instead of 100%. If you would remove 150% element of the 300% and add 100% multishot, you would have the same % damage, but extra damage would be way higher as the 'DR' part is not so existent. This is why +damage +element +multishot is the best modding for damage due reduced 'DR'.

 

So it isn't multishot the problem, it's the problem of stacking only one source of damage that is way underpowered.

THe extra bullets aren't really a large factor since they usually shoot so close together. Only on weapons with Heavy Cal or horrible accuracy like the explosive family, and on those the spread is actually beneficial.

 

It adds status chance by ading more chances per shot, it doesn't actually raise the status itself. You get 2 bullets wit 10% chance to make 20%, for example. 

It is a chance to get a much more powerful shot on your weapon, literally doubling your damage. Now you have a choice, do you want 40% more damage all the time, or a 45% chance at 200% damage?

Multishot is a problem because there isn't a reason to NOT have it on. You wouln'tn use Toxin fighting Grineer, and you wouldn't use a mag size mod on the Vectis. When would you  NOT use multishot? THere's no reason to ever take it off, an with limited slots there's even less diversity between builds. 

[Tali]

You do realize Multishot is not just a damage mod right? On soma it not only increases your damage but fills in the gaps in the spread of your shots. This is equally true for shotguns and other automatic weapons. Doubling the base damage would not have the same effect. Also I am fairly certain this would murder the living hell out of status builds on a lot of weapons. They just need to add that utility slot. See? Then you would have your 8 slots just fine. Assuming of course that you don't count base damage mods as required, or elemental mods.

this, also angstrum and kulstar benefit by multishot by increasing it AoE.

[TwiceDead]

I agree what you're saying, but I am not sold on the solution... That said, I don't have a better idea right now. 

 

But this is a problem with all the damage increasing mods in the game, it's because of their asinine scaling that goes completely off the charts. In turn DE has to translate that insanity into enemy-scaling in order to give players a challenge, and if they keep adding multi-shot this is not going to get less apparent. 

[Lord_Xenon]

THe extra bullets aren't really a large factor since they usually shoot so close together. Only on weapons with Heavy Cal or horrible accuracy like the explosive family, and on those the spread is actually beneficial.

 

It adds status chance by ading more chances per shot, it doesn't actually raise the status itself. You get 2 bullets wit 10% chance to make 20%, for example. 

It is a chance to get a much more powerful shot on your weapon, literally doubling your damage. Now you have a choice, do you want 40% more damage all the time, or a 45% chance at 200% damage?

Multishot is a problem because there isn't a reason to NOT have it on. You wouln'tn use Toxin fighting Grineer, and you wouldn't use a mag size mod on the Vectis. When would you  NOT use multishot? THere's no reason to ever take it off, an with limited slots there's even less diversity between builds. 

 

You failed to get the point. Read again what I wrote. Multishot isn't the problem.

It's the stackingmechanic(or in the case of one part doesn't stacking itself). So no. I don't want a reduced Multishot because some people Q.Q about it. Use another mod if you don't want it. Don't force other the same and in the end nerf all using it.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

Want to know how people will use that freed slot? They will just use another damage mod that will be obligatory somehow, that damage mod removed, people will just use another damage mod. It's not going to end unless it ends completely.

This is exactly it.  We build things to make ourselves stronger.

At one point do we stop and realize that there are "necessary" mods for a reason.  If everything in the game is made equal for modding potential then what the hell is the point of modding at all.    

Serration being required isn't a "problem" - why DE or even the fanbase thinks it is is beyond me.  Obviously something that makes you do more damage is required later in the game, it's a no brainer - especially in a game with progressive difficulty - this isn't CoD where everything is equal - or Destiny where level 34 guns still do crap to level 6 enemies - is this what people really want?  

If you increase the base damage of all weapons to match what Serration and Mulishot mods would do (Like OP and many have suggested) then prepare to watch the BEGINNING of the game for everybody else become easy as S#&$.  

We're endgame players, we use specific mods for a reason, because we NEED them.  Lower level players don't NEED these mods - factor it into base damages though and those new players will be way OP for their stage in the game.  We end game players need to stop thinking we're the only thing in the game.

Also, I've always found Maximization builds to be the entire point of modding, if a certain set of mods turns out to be the overall best for maximization then we're modding and using the system correctly.  

Unless DE is prepared to make all enemies in the game the same level, and remove any semblance of progressive difficulty, then removing these mods is plain dumb.  I mean I don't know what people want?  Viable pure Reload builds?  Viable ammo efficiency builds?  Silent builds?  It's not like we're sacrificing any useful features for these mods as it is...

The only thing I find suffers for these mods is piercing, since I don't like removing them for it - but it's a small sacrifice for better performance.  

Edited August 30, 2015 by (PS4)lagrue

[Xardis]

Same with serration. Pure damage should scale with weapons rank just like stats in frames.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

Same with serration. Pure damage should scale with weapons rank just like stats in frames.

A weapon hits Rank 30 in a game or two...

You telling me players who are MR1 with a maxed Braton should be doing the same damage as a current high level player with a Braton and seration?

Please, that would break the game - MR1's/low MRs would effectively be able to run end-game content.

And this would make modding redundant all around.

Edited August 30, 2015 by (PS4)lagrue

[belcebub]

It's not multishot specifically that's the problem here, as has already been pointed out. The problem are all the *mandatory* boring mods. That has been discussed before, it got worse with pdmg 120%mods and yeah, the real problem is how stuff scales.

 

As long as there are be objective stat increase mods like multishots and serrations, we're gonna use them... because i for one just can't even play without said mods when i know i could be way more powerful.

 

The suggestions i've seen floating around have ranged from outright removing the 'problematic' mods from existence to integrating their function into weapons to some much more convoluted stuff. The ball has been sitting in DE's court for a while now on this issue... 

[TwiceDead]

A weapon hits Rank 30 in a game or two...

You telling me players who are MR1 with a maxed Braton should be doing the same damage as a current high level player with a Braton and seration?

Please, that would break the game - MR1's/low MRs would effectively be able to run end-game content.

And this would make modding redundant all around.

It's not like there's a big gap between MR1 and MR2 (the point where Boltor Prime becomes available), so that wouldn't make much of a difference. Low MR's already run tier 4 voids like nobody's business since their clan-mates piggy-back them to glory (and there's nothing wrong with that). 

 

It wouldn't make modding redundant as there are many utility mods out there(albeit most of them(not all) are useless in their current implementation), but it wouldn't solve any current problems either. 

I agree though, I don't think weapons should deal increased damage as they rank up. 

Edited August 30, 2015 by TwiceDead

[taiiat]

Multishot isn't the only Mod that's required later on.

Weapons have less Mod Slots than you suggest.

you WILL have 2 Elementals.

if it's a Crit Weapon, you WILL have atleast 2 Crit Mods.

and you always have all Multishot Mods.

and you will always have Base Damage.

this means for Rifles, one Multishot, one Base Damage, two Elementals, and if it's a Crit Weapon, two Crits.

that's 4 Mods, 6 if a Crit Weapon.

for Sidearms, that's two Multishot, one Base Damage, two Elementals, and if it's a Crit Weapon, two Crits.

that's 5 Mods, 7 if it's a Crit Weapon.

some special cases:

Shotguns, one Multishot, one base Damage, two Elementals, and 90% of the time, one more Base Damage, and then sometimes one more Base Damage.

minimum 4 Mods, usually 5, sometimes 6. +1 to each instance for Hek.

Charge Weapons always have a Speed Mod Equipped. +1 to any of those in any category except Sidarms, where Lethal Torrent may or may not be sufficient.

there's a lot of Mods that are mandatory.

Mods being mandatory isn't necessarily a problem. it's not as cool as it would be otherwise, but most of these aren't awful as it stands.

i like Multishot, because who doesn't like shooting more bullets? i certainly like using them to be throwing more lead down range.

being a Mod that you always Equip, sure, it could be a different way. but far from the only fish in the pond, you need all of the fish no matter how much you like or don't like one of the fish.

- - - - -

if you're really as 'endgame' as you say, you'd be recognizing that your Soma has 2 Mod Slots in actuality, your Cernos has 2 Mod Slots in actuality, your Prisma Gorgon has 2 Mod Slots in actuality.

your Hek has 1-2 Mod Slots in actuality.

- - - - -

Edit:

and no, just removing all of the Mods and multiplying the stats of all of the Equipment doesn't address any issues. all it does is multiply Weapon Damage even more.

the multiplication is high enough as it is, 55-110x is more than enough. too much.

Edited August 30, 2015 by taiiat

[Azamagon]

I don't see a problem with damageboosting mods, neither as plain damage or as multishot. They provide some form of progression in the game.

HOWEVER, what I DO see as a problem is how strong these mods are, and that they thus become essential to use, due to the enemy scaling being so insane.

 

Thus, what I think would be a better "overall" solution:

 

* Nerf enemy scaling (offensive and defensive), armor in particular

* Nerf our damage-increasing mods. Don't remove them, but make them less insane (Example: Multishot down to about 30%, for example, that'd make it OPTIONAL)

* Add a number (3 or 4?) of utility-slots in everything we mod, which use a seperated pool of modpoints. Yes, we have Exilus slots in Warframes. But that's not enough, nor is ONE slot enough, and it's horrible that they cost regular modpoints, thus still indirectly competing with non-utility (and even worse that they have to be UNLOCKED, this should be a BASELINE thing!). Otherwise, utility is still gonna be very scarce in useage REGARDLESS of all above changes.

[Carl_Bar]

Mods being mandatory isn't necessarily a problem. 

 

Right because not being able to choose mods to suit your playstyle with no fear of any combination being bad is so not a problem. ahaha. Pull the other one, it has bells on it.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

Right because not being able to choose mods to suit your playstyle with no fear of any combination being bad is so not a problem. ahaha. Pull the other one, it has bells on it.

Right because slapping Hush on a Rifle is the smartest thing to do and should be equally as good as anything else and shouldn't be punished for being an extremely poor choice.. oh wait....

Your play-style can only go so far in a game with enemy scaling.  Trying to be a silent rifleman in end game is like asking to lose, if that's your playstyle then you need to adapt to the mold.  Unfortunately in end game there is no longer such thing as playstyles, the enemy scaling does not allow for it.   

If you really want to use whatever mods you want and enjoy a dynamic weapon, go play easy content where you don't need these mods... you'd almost think it was rocket science.  

The real problem here isn't mods, as the guy above you mentioned, it's the fact that enemies scale to insane levels and force us to use these mods - but even then, that's the point of scaling.  Just like any RPG there comes a point where certain weapons and combos are better - even if Warframe is a shooter, it's is still at its core, an RPG game.  RPGs don't work on balance, they work on scaling and progression.  I wish people would stop trying to turn this into cod where everybody is equal and can die or kill 1 shot.  Every RPG I've ever played since I was a kid had Legendary Tier weapons that were the absolute essential for endgame content.  

That's how games with progression, particularily RPGs work.  

Edited August 30, 2015 by (PS4)lagrue