Solution Against Runners Without Lowering The Ttk

[rockscl]

Dedi servers won't change how mind numbingly boring it is chasing down kills all game because ehp, movement animations, health drop and ttk balance all make running for a health drop an incredibly easy way to reset any fight you're losing.

 

you are looking at 1v1 fights in 4v4 maps, so just ask for 1v1 maps

 

you are looking at un even matches where despite being 4v4, you are actually 1v1 because no one else is at your same level of reasoning, even when 1v2, or 1v3, you still are 1v1 each time you face each one of them, most of those are noobs, who wont even try to pick health orbs, leaving all the resources to you dying one after the other, if there was just a bit of coordination, or equal level of reasoning, 1 guy would be dogfighting you and the other two would stand in their place shooting or something alike, the system cant place even players without dedicated servers, therefore dedicated servers would solve endless runs in 4v4

Edited September 12, 2015 by rockscl

[Pythadragon]

But if they don't shoot back (cuz shooting slows down escape) you're at advantage because you'r damaging them without them damaging you?

Even after they grab an HP orb, you can still kill them. Takes a while for orb to respawn.

 

I'm going to take a guess that igo95862 is saying:

 

A 'runner' has a mobility advantage because that player can afford to constantly roll, thus having an extra speed boost and mobility tool* to use that the 'chaser' can't exploit due to the need to try and kill the player. 

 

Therefore, in order to neutralize the mobility advantage, the chaser must forgo shooting, therefore having equal mobility to the runner. As well, most maps have sufficient cover for the 'runner' to break line of sight with the 'chaser', and the general TTK in the game is not sufficient to take someone down before they break LOS in most map positions.

 

Therefore, in a fight between two sufficiently skilled players, one player can disengage and the other can only match that players speed while forgoing the ability to deal damage to the other player. The player that disengaged is then able to run and grab a health orb with impunity and reengage. 

 

The cycle of disengage/health orb/reengage repeats until one player makes a big enough mistake for the other to kill within the games TTK.

 

*The 'runner' also has two additional mobility advantages due to coptering and air melee. These are of course much more minor tools than rolling.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Pythadragon

[elele]

The simple fact is the runner, while "running", is not shooting back. Therefore he's just a toothless rabbit. He goes down eventually.

Also why would a sane person keep running away all the time? Time spent running is time not spent on getting affinity.

[Lord_Noctus]

I'm going to take a guess that igo95862 is saying:

 

A 'runner' has a mobility advantage because that player can afford to constantly roll, thus having an extra speed boost and mobility tool* to use that the 'chaser' can't exploit due to the need to try and kill the player. 

 

Therefore, in order to neutralize the mobility advantage, the chaser must forgo shooting, therefore having equal mobility to the runner. As well, most maps have sufficient cover for the 'runner' to break line of sight with the 'chaser', and the general TTK in the game is not sufficient to take someone down before they break LOS in most map positions.

 

Therefore, in a fight between two sufficiently skilled players, one player can disengage and the other can only match that players speed while forgoing the ability to deal damage to the other player. The player that disengaged is then able to run and grab a health orb with impunity and reengage. 

 

The cycle of disengage/health orb/reengage repeats until one player makes a big enough mistake for the other to kill within the games TTK.

 

*The 'runner' also has two additional mobility advantages due to coptering and air melee. These are of course much more minor tools than rolling.

completely agree

[Aggh]

you are looking at 1v1 fights in 4v4 maps, so just ask for 1v1 maps

 

you are looking at un even matches where despite being 4v4, you are actually 1v1 because no one else is at your same level of reasoning, even when 1v2, or 1v3, you still are 1v1 each time you face each one of them, most of those are noobs, who wont even try to pick health orbs, leaving all the resources to you dying one after the other, if there was just a bit of coordination, or equal level of reasoning, 1 guy would be dogfighting you and the other two would stand in their place shooting or something alike, the system cant place even players without dedicated servers, therefore dedicated servers would solve endless runs in 4v4

1v1s are still a part of 4v4s.  Uneven matches don't change the fact that there is so much broken balance with ehp, animations and health drops.

 

 

 

The simple fact is the runner, while "running", is not shooting back. Therefore he's just a toothless rabbit. He goes down eventually.

Also why would a sane person keep running away all the time? Time spent running is time not spent on getting affinity.

Not really, if you know how to parkour properly and you're playing a tanky frame,  there's no way you can't make it to a health drop before most people will have a shot at finishing you.  The only way you really can die with any surety in this game is if you're actively targeting someone since it opens you up to making potential movement mistakes that make you an easier target.

 

You're making the mistake of assuming that all PvP players care about affinity.  Most people playing pvp games could care less about exp.  The vast majority of them just care about winning/ their KDr.

 

 

I'm going to take a guess that igo95862 is saying:

 

A 'runner' has a mobility advantage because that player can afford to constantly roll, thus having an extra speed boost and mobility tool* to use that the 'chaser' can't exploit due to the need to try and kill the player. 

 

Therefore, in order to neutralize the mobility advantage, the chaser must forgo shooting, therefore having equal mobility to the runner. As well, most maps have sufficient cover for the 'runner' to break line of sight with the 'chaser', and the general TTK in the game is not sufficient to take someone down before they break LOS in most map positions.

 

Therefore, in a fight between two sufficiently skilled players, one player can disengage and the other can only match that players speed while forgoing the ability to deal damage to the other player. The player that disengaged is then able to run and grab a health orb with impunity and reengage. 

 

The cycle of disengage/health orb/reengage repeats until one player makes a big enough mistake for the other to kill within the games TTK.

 

*The 'runner' also has two additional mobility advantages due to coptering and air melee. These are of course much more minor tools than rolling.

 

This sums up the problem perfectly.

 

The devs need to find a ehp/health drop/movement animation balance where this is less of an issue.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Aggh

[elele]

 there's no way you can't make it to a health drop before most people will have a shot at finishing you.  

 

After that, then what? HP orb is gone for a while. 

 

[Lordricker]

Well there are other hp drops on the map so if its a smaller match then they just go get those. This is why 1v1 is completely no viable. bigger matches not as much problem cause like you said its gone for a while

[Murph_HKM]

Solution to runners:

 

Land more shots.


/thread

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Solution to runners:

 

Land more shots.

/thread

Could not have said it better myself

[Rakshal]

Why not just nerf the really powerful tanks (Frost, Rhino, Chroma) speed. That would be much simpler.

[-InV-igo95862]

Why not just nerf the really powerful tanks (Frost, Rhino, Chroma) speed. That would be much simpler.

 

 

This is the best decision but the problem is the movespeed is irrelevant in pakour 2.0. If you want to really reduce speed you need to make bullet jump speed different on different frames.

[Lord_Noctus]

This is the best decision but the problem is the movespeed is irrelevant in pakour 2.0. If you want to really reduce speed you need to make bullet jump speed different on different frames.

slower speed would maybe be akward realistically a shorter range of the jump and the moves would be better i think becouse u know ... ur tank and ur heavy..... 

 

u maybe mean the same as i do

Edited September 16, 2015 by Lord_Noctus

[Rakshal]

This is the best decision but the problem is the movespeed is irrelevant in pakour 2.0. If you want to really reduce speed you need to make bullet jump speed different on different frames.

That is what I meant, the parkour of tank casters should be slower than casters or the non-power focused frames.

[-InV-igo95862]

slower speed would maybe be akward realistically a shorter range of the jump and other moves would be better i think becouse u know ... ur tank and ur heavy..... 

 

u maybe mean the same as i do

 

I meant that changing value of "SPRINT SPEED" will not change actual speed. Changes on Bullet Jump have much more difference.

[Lord_Noctus]

I meant that changing value of "SPRINT SPEED" will not change actual speed. Changes on Bullet Jump have much more difference.

yeh i think the best idea is rly to shorten the range of the bulletjump and the roll

[Kontrollo]

Reducing range of bullet jump and roll is an interesting proposal, but it must not be based on a Warframe's movement speed.

 

Frost would obviously (and rightfully) be impacted the most by it, but he's the only one. Both Rhino Prime and Chroma both have 1.0 movement speed. Valkyr, Zephyr and especially Ash Prime are even faster than that.

[Aggh]

Reducing range of bullet jump and roll is an interesting proposal, but it must not be based on a Warframe's movement speed.

 

Frost would obviously (and rightfully) be impacted the most by it, but he's the only one. Both Rhino Prime and Chroma both have 1.0 movement speed. Valkyr, Zephyr and especially Ash Prime are even faster than that.

If they do go forward with it, imo they should scale bullet jump distance and speed based on ehp.  From there they can take a look at frames that are slowed down too much and nerf their EHP to a point where they have a more approrpriate mobility and EHP for that particular frame.  Ex Ash prime would probably be slower than they'd like, so he'd probably have to see an EHP nerf.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Aggh

[Lord_Noctus]

If they do go forward with it, imo they should scale bullet jump distance and speed based on ehp.  From there they can take a look at frames that are slowed down too much and nerf their EHP to a point where they have a more approrpriate mobility and EHP for that particular frame.  Ex Ash prime would probably be slower than they'd like, so he'd probably have to see an EHP nerf.

yes basing it on EHP is a good idea. the more EHP the heavier u gotta be logically. well on ash u have then 2 variants the stealthy slow tank ( ash prime) or the fast mobile stealth frame ( ash ). This would also have the positive effect that volt prime and ash prime for example arent just upgrades instead it would be a matter of gameplay style.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Lord_Noctus