Spira: Is It Really Power Creep?

[TARINunit9]

Everyone is accusing the Spira of being new power creep that obsoletes the Despair. Is this actually true? Well, I'm bored tonight, so let's crunch some numbers. I will be comparing Despair's strongest attribute, fire rate, with Spira's strongest attribute, crits

 

Rank 0:
Spira: (55 damage x 2.5 rounds/second) regular damage + (55 x 0.25 x 1 x 2.5) critical damage = 171 DPS

Despair: (55 damage x 3.3 rounds/second) regular damage + (55 x 0.025x 0.5 x 3.3) critical damage = 183 DPS

0.2 second different is reload speed is so minuscule I won't even bother running the equation segment for it

 

(Before you ask, no, I am very deliberately NOT calculating full builds, because Hornet Strike on both would cancel out, Barrel Diff. on both would just cancel out, etc.)

 

Despair w/ Gunslinger

(55 x 6.676 rounds/second) + (55 x 5.676 x 0.5 x 0.025) = 371 DPS

 

Despair w/ Gunslinger and Lethal Torrent

(55 x 7.656 rounds/second x 1.6 multishot) + (55 x 7.656 x 0.5 x 0.025 x 1.6) = 682.1 DPS

 

Spira w/ Pistol Gambit and Target Cracker

(55 x 2.5) + (55 x 0.55 crit chance x 2.2 crit damage x 2.5) = 303.9 DPS

 

Spira w/ Primed Pistol Gambit and Target Cracker

(55 x 2.5) + (55 x 0.718 crit chance x 2.2 crit damage x 2.5) = 354.7 DPS

 

Spira w/  Primed Pistol Gambit, Target Cracker, Lethal Torrent

(55 x 4 rounds/second x 1.6 multishot) + (55 x 0.718 crit chance x 2.2 crit damage x 4 x 1.6) = 908 DPS

 

What do you guys think? Because it looks pretty much like a sidegrade to me.

 

(thanks to Deadoon, Mac2492, and stoybot for proofreading my math)

Edited September 24, 2015 by TARINunit9

[[DE]Grzegorz]

This is all caused by how DE just balances weapon by feel.

[arKRazor]

You would have to compare full builds for each.

[Gr3vi3R]

I bet that if you Max Mod them Spira wins both Rainbow and Crit Builds.

[TARINunit9]

You would have to compare full builds for each.

I figure full builds would just be the same thing: Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, three or four elemental mods. I wanted to compare the mods that you wouldn't also put on the other one

[Naftal]

Try comparing them having maxed builds.

Hornet Strike

Barrel Diffusion

Lethal Torrent

90% elemental

90% elemental

90% elemental or 60% elemental to increase primary combo element or Anemic Agility

Spira:

Primed Pistol Gambit

Target Cracker

Despair:

more elementals/expel

I figure full builds would just be the same thing: Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, three or four elemental mods. I wanted to compare the mods that you wouldn't also put on the other one

Lethal Torrent is staple for all secondaries at least until multishot changes happen. Edited September 24, 2015 by Naftal

[TARINunit9]

Try comparing them having maxed builds.

Hornet Strike

Barrel Diffusion

Lethal Torrent

90% elemental

90% elemental

90% elemental or 60% elemental to increase primary combo element or Anemic Agility

Spira:

Primed Pistol Gambit

Target Cracker

Despair:

more elementals/expel

I very deliberately didn't do that, because the five mods you mentioned being put on both would (surprise surprise) cancel out

[Naftal]

I very deliberately didn't do that, because the five mods you mentioned being put on both would (surprise surprise) cancel out

Lethal Torrent goes to all secondaries.

[TARINunit9]

Lethal Torrent goes to all secondaries.

Alright, fine, I'll do a build with Spira w/ Lethal Torrent

[Mac2492]

I figure full builds would just be the same thing: Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, three or four elemental mods. I wanted to compare the mods that you wouldn't also put on the other one

 

You'd still have to compare full builds due to how crit will factor in the bonus damage. If you throw in 55 base damage, Spira will benefit more because it has a 25% chance to double it while Despair only has a 2.5% chance to multiply it by 1.5. The gap further widens when factoring in multishot and (Primed) Pistol Gambit further increasing the gap.

 

Lethal Torrent is core for every secondary at least until multishot is reworked, btw.

 

Don't have time to crunch the numbers here, but a more fair comparison would be looking at full builds and swapping Pistol Gambit and Target Cracker for Gunslinger and/or Elements. My hunch is that Spira will have an decent edge in terms of DPS, but that's just an educated guess.

[Dustii-chan]

Lethal Torrent goes to all secondaries.

Lethal Torrent is staple for all secondaries at least until multishot changes happen.

 

I'm afraid not, Tenno. Why waste 11 drain on an RNG-based chance of a third round firing out of your secondary (there's already a 20% chance for that with Barrel Diffusion) when you can spend 7 (to add a dual-stat mod) or 9 (to increase reload speed and status chance)?

[TARINunit9]

You'd still have to compare full builds due to how crit will factor in the bonus damage. If you throw in 55 base damage, Spira will benefit more because it has a 25% chance to double it while Despair only has a 2.5% chance to multiply it by 1.5. The gap further widens when factoring in multishot and (Primed) Pistol Gambit further increasing the gap.

It's just multipliers; i'm not sure you understand how cross-cancelling works

[Naftal]

I'm afraid not, Tenno. Why waste 11 drain on an RNG-based chance of a third round firing out of your secondary (there's already a 20% chance for that with Barrel Diffusion) when you can spend 7 (to add a dual-stat mod) or 9 (to increase reload speed and status chance)?

Because Forma exists. That means we are not limited by mod points but mod slots. Lethal Torrent is a staple.

[Cyborg-Rox]

The crits do give you less flexibility when modding. You won't be able to use flight speed, Concealed Explosives, or any other mod that you may like using on other throwing daggers.

However, the fact that it's crit-based with less fire-rate makes it a much better single-shot weapon, which is very good for stealth runs.

I've run the numbers, and they're not THAT different when using maxed builds.

Spira has max potential of 5,5k single-shot damage, 20k burst DPS, and 14k sustained DPS.

Spira can ACTUALLY get 7k single-shot damage, 24k burst DPS, and 20k sustained DPS (missed something before >_>)

Despair has max potential of 3k single-shot damage, 16k burst DPS, and 11k sustained DPS.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Cyborg-Rox

[taiiat]

Spira is going to generally be superior, but i think i'm okay with this, between:

being slower shooting

Weakpoint Crits being encouraged

however, it's probably superior without Weakpoint Crits, so i would not be surprised if it was just superior period. which ofcourse would mean that Kunai won't get built anymore, every newer Player will skip right to Spira.

some very quick and messy non-normalized numbers though, came up with Spira at ~9800 and Despair at ~11,500.

however, that didn't consider Primed Pistol Gambit or Weakpoint Crits.

i'll do more complete numbers when it's not late at night.

i'm going to conclude for the time being that Spira may be a more Skill Based version that can apply a bunch more Damage(especially due to Crits being able to give a ton of Elemental Damage), and hope that tommorow that's still the case.

Edit:

i don't know how to math but want to talk about numbers

Lethal Torrent makes a third Projectile almost guaranteed. instead of averaging 2 Projectiles(and basically never getting that third), you average 3(and basically never get two).

after Hornet Strike and Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent is the biggest Damage increase that you can possibly have.

it's a Mod that you always use. period. fullstop. end of story.

Edited September 24, 2015 by taiiat

[Naftal]

The crits do give you less flexibility when modding. You won't be able to use flight speed, Concealed Explosives, or any other mod that you may like using on other throwing daggers.

However, the fact that it's crit-based with less fire-rate makes it a much better single-shot weapon, which is very good for stealth runs.

I've run the numbers, and they're not THAT different when using maxed builds.

Spira has max potential of 5,5k single-shot damage, 20k burst DPS, and 14k sustained DPS.

Despair has max potential of 3k single-shot damage, 16k burst DPS, and 11k sustained DPS.

How much lower is Spira's damage and dps if you only use regular Pistol Gambit?

[stoybot]

I ran a few calculations and with 345% elemental damage (Primed Heated Charge) and Primed Pistol Gambit, the Spira does 27,713 burst DPS and 19,795 sustained DPS. It's slightly ahead of my trusty Akmagnus but it also has far less status. Weapons like the Lex Prime leave it in the dust of course, but it's definitely the best kunai at the moment. For comparison, the Despair goes up to 18,528 burst and 13,026 sustained DPS (with 345% elemental damage, Bore, and an Expel mod. Given the 4x multiplier on headcrits, the Spira is very far ahead of the Despair.

[(PSN)buddy72757]

Sidegrade

 

Trades RoF for Crit

[Mac2492]

It's just multipliers; i'm not sure you understand how cross-cancelling works

Yes, but crit functions as a fourth multiplier.

 

Effective Crit Multiplier

Despair: (1.0 * 0.975) + (1.5 * 0.025) = 1.0125

Spira: (1.0 * 0.75) + (2.0 * 0.25) = 1.25

 

Spira has a natural multiplier advantage over Despair of 1.25/1.0125 ~ 1.234567x.

 

Throwing in Primed Pistol Gambit will significantly increase this disparity. Despair will be able to substitute an elemental mod, but stacking any particular type of damage (base, elemental, multishot) has diminishing returns. By the time you have three 90% elemental mods, the fourth one is only a 33% improvement over three. In this case, the crit weapon has the advantage because an optimal build already has at least 3 elements in it. Adding in crit mods will give its full multiplicative effect, while adding in elemental mods gives only an additive bonus to the previous elemental damage.

[BattledOne]

Because Forma exists. That means we are not limited by mod points but mod slots. Lethal Torrent is a staple.

It's a bit limited frame of mind to treat it like that. While it's probably the best DPS weapon mod in the game currently, there are many reasons you could skip it. Firstly it gives attack speed, which is a somewhat controversial stat, as it gives DPS at the cost of worse ammo economy and needing to reload more often, oh and say hello to recoil. On weapons that have piss poor ammo economy and already fire too fast for their own good attack speed might as well be considered a negative stat. Factoring that in we ha have 60% multishot, which increases DPS by ~27% after Barrel Diffusion. While it's a big increase, it's not a gamechanger losing it. On a crit weapon where you'd also want to fit in punch trought/ammo mutation and still have corrosive + primed heated charge, you'll be limited for slots and might choose to replace lethal torrent. Edited September 24, 2015 by BattledOne

[Cyborg-Rox]

How much lower is Spira's damage and dps if you only use regular Pistol Gambit?

Eh, I just realized I missed something (adding normal damage after dividing non-crit chance) >_>

So Spira can ACTUALLY get 7k single-shot damage, 24k burst DPS, and 20k sustained DPS

With normal Pistol Gambit you can get 6k single-shot damage 21k burst DPS, and 17k sustained DPS

[TARINunit9]

Yes, but crit functions as a fourth multiplier.

 

Effective Crit Multiplier

Despair: (1.0 * 0.975) + (1.5 * 0.025) = 1.0125

Spira: (1.0 * 0.75) + (2.0 * 0.25) = 1.25

 

Spira has a natural multiplier advantage over Despair of 1.25/1.0125 ~ 1.234567x.

 

Throwing in Primed Pistol Gambit will significantly increase this disparity. Despair will be able to substitute an elemental mod, but stacking any particular type of damage (base, elemental, multishot) has diminishing returns. By the time you have three 90% elemental mods, the fourth one is only a 33% improvement over three. In this case, the crit weapon has the advantage because an optimal build already has at least 3 elements in it. Adding in crit mods will give its full multiplicative effect, while adding in elemental mods gives only an additive bonus to the previous elemental damage.

 

Two problems with your logic:

1. Read over my equations in my OP again. I calculate all the critical damage in longhand. I didn't forget the critical multiplier. I was comparing a critical multiplier against a rate-of-fire multiplier

2. You can put the elemental mods on both weapons and get an equal +90% multiplier, or Hornet Strike on both weapons and get the same +220% multiplier

 

Ergo: (these are just arbitrary sample builds)

Spiria w/ Primed Pistol Gambit + Target Cracker + Hornet Strike + Barrel Diffusion + Primed Heated Charge + Convulsion + Jolt + Deep Freeze

vs

Despair w/ Gunslinger + Lethal Torrent + Hornet Strike + Barrel Diffusion + Primed Heated Charge + Convulsion + Jolt + Deep Freeze

 

Cancel out to equal

 

Spiria w/ Primed Pistol Gambit + Target Cracker

vs

Despair w/ Gunslinger + Lethal Torrent

Edited September 24, 2015 by TARINunit9

[Mac2492]

It's a bit limited frame of mind to treat it like that. While it's probably the best DPS weapon mod in the game currently, there are many reasons you could skip it. Firstly it gives attack speed, which is a somewhat controversial stat, as it gives DPS at the cost of worse ammo economy and needing to reload more often, oh and say hello to recoil. On weapons that have piss poor ammo economy and already fire too fast for their own good attack speed might as well be considered a negative stat. Factoring that in we ha have 60% multishot, which increases DPS by ~27% after Barrel Diffusion. While it's a big increase, it's not a gamechanger losing it. On a crit weapon where you'd also want to fit in punch trought/ammo mutation and still have corrosive + primed heated charge, you'll be limited for slots and might choose to replace lethal torrent.

You raise some good points. Placing Lethal Torrent in every build will often makes two assumptions:

1) No Gunslinger

2) Trigger Control

 

Gunslinger is generally given up in favor of Lethal Torrent due to the quirks of fire rate. This makes Lethal Torrent the exclusive source of fire rate and results in a straight 60% DPS increase from fire rate. The increased fire rate will cause ammo to be expended more quickly, but this can be offset by proper trigger control. Semi-auto and charge weapons purely benefit from fire rate, as do burst weapons (especially with fire rate now decreasing burst intervals). Automatic weapons must be fired in bursts to conserve ammo anyway. As long as you're not holding the trigger too long and wasting ammo on dead enemies, Lethal Torrent will give you an enormous DPS boost and is absolutely worth the mod slot.

 

In other words, 60% DPS from fire rate and 27% DPS from multishot for one mod slot as long as you can control your trigger finger. It's mandatory for an optimal DPS build, even if optimal requires controlling your trigger finger and/or recoil to achieve.

[(PSN)NachoZissou]

It's a bit limited frame of mind to treat it like that. While it's probably the best DPS weapon mod in the game currently, there are many reasons you could skip it. Firstly it gives attack speed, which is a somewhat controversial stat, as it gives DPS at the cost of worse ammo economy and needing to reload more often, oh and say hello to recoil. On weapons that have piss poor ammo economy and already fire too fast for their own good attack speed might as well be considered a negative stat. Factoring that in we ha have 60% multishot, which increases DPS by ~27% after Barrel Diffusion. While it's a big increase, it's not a gamechanger losing it. On a crit weapon where you'd also want to fit in punch trought/ammo mutation and still have corrosive + primed heated charge, you'll be limited for slots and might choose to replace lethal torrent.

Lethal Torrent isn't a mandatory mod and this is why, well said. A lot of people can't see past the fact that the damage numbers go up so they assume it's always better when it actually makes some guns borderline unusable.

[Autongnosis]

Despair max damage build: Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent, 2 90% elementals, Primed Heated Charge, Gunslinger, Seeker

Damage per shot: 2'220.37

Burst: 17'153.71

Sustained: 10'601.48

Spira max damage build: Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent, Primed Pistol Gambit, Target Cracker, 2 90% elementals, Primed Heated Charge

Damage per shot: 5'654.54

Burst: 22'618.19

Sustained: 16'155.85

On top of 4x headshot crits and much higher ammo efficiency.

Straight upgrade. Do note i'm trusting the wiki on the Spira having phisics impact (thus not needing punchthrough mods).

EDIT: typo

Edited September 24, 2015 by Autongnosis