Spira: Is It Really Power Creep?

[--Sensei--]

The Spiras are pretty slow imo which really balances it out, if anyone has used spira yet they'll know how disgustingly slow it is, you need lethal torrent and gunslinger to even catch up to despairs with just lethal torrent on =[.

 

The speed is just.... bad.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Spira shoots just as fast as Sobek :D

[taiiat]

sometimes there's other mods that you want to use so that your weapon is better at an aspect it's lacking in.

replacing Lethal Torrent is forgoing like, 20x more Damage for a single Utility Mod.

if you want Utility, replace something else. Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent, and two Elementals are the critical base of your Sidearm. plus at the very least Crit Chance if it's a Crit Weapon, but Crit Damage if you can. that leaves one Utility Slot if you want to have one. you can sacrifice Crit Damage(or another Element for Primary Combo/secondary Element if it's not a Crit Weapon) for another Utility Slot.

if you need a third Utility Slot, you can only have that option if it's not a Crit Sidearm. note we still have Base Damage, 2 Multishot, and 2 Elemental.

if you need a fourth Utility Slot... you can't. you lose almost all of your Damage no matter what you remove for a fourth Utility Slot.

Lethal Torrent is the smallest Damage loss, but it's still upwards of a 20x Damage loss.

and i find it hard to believe that you need 4 Utility Mods on a Weapon.

-snip-

all of that boils down to - you're still better off keeping it. the extra Damage you have is monumentally higher, higher enough where you can just shoot slower to keep from overkilling your Enemies.

basic Trigger Discipline keeps you from wasting too much Ammo, and the huge amount of extra Damage means Enemies are not only dead faster, but with less Ammunition.

is losing a giant chunk of your Damage really worth the 'usability' problem? Burst Firing solves the usability already.

you might 'only' lose ~27% of your average Damage per Shot(which is a lot more than it sounds like, since you're losing a big chunk of Elemental Damage), but you also lose ~58% of your Damage over time.

is it really worth losing half of your Damage for another Utility Mod? there's other choices that would tank your Damage much less.

-snip-

the problem is comparing two Loadouts that have no comparison.

you're going to use Elementals on Despair/Kunai, and Crits on Spira.

both should have an identical Loadout except for Spira replacing two of the weakest Elementals with Crit Mods.

yes, you can get higher 'muh Deeps' by stacking RoF Mods. but just like doing that on any of the bullet hoses we have in the game - it's a ridiculous proposition.

it focuses on just Burst Damage, which is only relevant for a fraction of a second at any given time.

hell, you might as well use Ice Storm instead, since it will increase Elemental Damage and give higher long term Damage with the Magazine size.

or a full Elemental. or whatever.

but you're not making a very good comparison otherwise, because one will have Ammo for many Enemies(Spira), and the other due to RoF will be magdumping on every single Enemy.

and i'm saying this because it isn't fair for Despair, not that it isn't fair for Spira. Despair isn't going to like being dangerously close to spending more time Reloading than shooting.

not to mention that you're still cheating, and not putting Lethal Torrent on Spira.

you're making it biased towards Despair since you're only talking about 'muh Deeps'. Despair with normal Damage and Spira with gimped Damage, where Despair is magdumping while Spira is firing normally.

you complain that Lethal Torrent makes some Weapons unusable - and that's a personal opinion, one which is most definitely not true here because Spira doesn't shoot quickly to start with.

- - - - - - - - - -

with less messy math this morning, i can conclude that Spira is just superior. i was kind've hoping for bodyshots being relatively close and then aiming for Weakpoints rewarding your aim, but it's not quite that.

Damage per Shot: Spira is 1.7183x more.

Damage per Time Frame: Spira is 1.3017x more.

Damage over extended periods: 1.2103x more.

this doesn't even include Primed Pistol Gambit.

and these are real world Loadouts that someone might actually use, instead of mathing what gives the most 'muh Deeps'.

with Primed Pistol Gambit:

Damage per Shot: Spira is 2.0056x

Damage per Time Frame: Spira is 1.5194x

Damage over extended periods: Spira is 1.4127x

for reference:

(note that mathematical averages underplay expectations from Crits. what you average doesn't usually equal what you actually experience vs Enemies - i.e. often having 3 Projectiles Crit. not the math's fault, just how things play out in Gameplay).

Spira:

and with Primed Pistol Gambit.

Despair:

i have to say that i wouldn't use any of these Loadouts however. Punch-Through is damn important. replacing Punch-Through with a supplementary Damage Mod is a no go for me.

this does mean that in the end, that Despair catches up some distance by always having the option to use Primed Heated Charge, while Spira will not.

this however, doesn't catch up as much as you're hoping. Crits are incredibly powerful, and there's no denying their higher Skill floor performance.

including Ice Storm on Despair's side is interesting. because both of these... have relatively similar Magazine/Reload.

Spira gets the edge because it doesn't use Ammo as quickly, but the two are quite close together because of Ice Storm.

no, replacing Ice Storm for Gunslinger or Anemic Agility isn't worth it. lowering your Magazine/Reload even further (both of these have terrible Magazine/Reload mind you) means you Kill an Enemy here and there a sliver quicker, but pay for it in spades when you constantly have an empty Magazine and need to Reload when you could instead be attacking.

Edit:

you know what i'd really love to do but won't happen due to the theme of the Weapons?

Spira having lower Physical Damage (in the high 20's or low 30's), but increasing it's Crit Multiplier to like, 3.0.

this would mean it would be not so hot on body shots, but on Weakpoints it would explode with incredible Skill based Damage.

Edited September 24, 2015 by taiiat

[Omnimorph]

For rapid fire secondary weapons such as Aksomati and Akzani, Lethal Torrent just isn't worth it. Numbers are numbers and on paper it may do more DeePeeEss, but the feel of the weapon and its ammo consumption are important also. People often overlook utility for sheer damage but in the long run that could make a weapon less usable faster.

 

Lethal Torrent is good on the Akzani actually - because it has a huge magazine and huge ammo pool.  (You still need very good trigger discipline, but you need that with all these weapons.)  It's also a lot of fun, with an insanely fast but quite bassy "brrrrrrr", and it makes the Akzani quite viable in T4 with 90% elementals (since it has no crit/status to speak of).

 

Lethal Torrent on things like Vipers and (A)Furis, though, is a complete waste of time, since they have comparatively tiny ammo pools and magazines, and already fire very fast anyway, and you want to rely on crit/status more with them.

[taiiat]

Status on Furis Series

uwot?

1% is not a high Status Rate. (or 5% for Dex Furis, still not very high)

might as well go for as much Elemental Damage as possible(meaning Lethal Torrent), and maybe slot in one Status Elemental to get Viral sometimes or something.

[RahuHordika]

Second, what's the big deal? There's been plenty of new weapons that's been much better than the previously better older ones. Anku with Hate and Reaper Prime, Tonkor with Penta and Ogris, Soma with Gorgon and Supra, AkSomati with AkStiletto and AkZani, Sweeper Prime with... any sentinel weapon.

A simple way to make people happy, and what's probably going to happen, is increasing the building and mastery requirements.

The difference here being that for the most part the stronger weapon is much harder to obtain or costs more, or even requires the previous version to build.

You 'solution' will help nothing as long as the Despar is solely obtainable once in a blue moon from a Stalker visit (aka layer upon layer of heavy RNG) and the other can be bought anytime in the market.

Anku and older Scythes are also offenders, contrary to your belief, but scythes are just mediocre in general and have been in dire need of a buff for a while now.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Whats with ppl and trying to math every dang weapon? IF you like it you like it , it not you dont simple why is there a need to prove dps number or some other crap...good for you guys but dang

 

Because this is what bored gamers who can't play the game do at work to make their day somewhat bearable.  XD

[Junktron]

Go in game and actually test these builds out. Because if your just looking at the numbers your not testing the actual weapon functionally. I remember when the Prisma Skana came out and people started comparing numbers of the Skana to the Dakra P. Most people looked at the numbers and assumed the Skana was better but in game the Dakra was still superior.

[--Sensei--]

Welp finished 4 formaing my Spira, and basically it's alright I guess, it hits harder than despairs, but you'll definitely need lethal torrent and gunslinger in there to make up for the speed loss, I replaced one of my 90% elemental mods and only dropped my damage by 100 which isn't alot.

 

http://goo.gl/lS4SQb

 

I was sad to see I couldn't make a viable concealed explosives build with it, I guess I'll leave my despairs as the go to for concealed explosives and my spira for a slight sidegrade in damage dealing.

 

No doubt it does more damage than despairs when I compare my 5 forma despair vs 4 forma Spira.

 

Tbh, its still not that better when compared to my 6 forma AKMagnus build

 

http://goo.gl/MKs9QX

 

I think I may just stick to my akmagnus for OP crit dmg+fast fire rate and despairs for concealed explosive nullifier rekting, Spira indeed does nice damage I'm not gonna lie, just when compared to its utility or damage to other side arms I already forma'd out... idk, I'll have to play with them a bit longer, so far just been testing them in simulacrum.

Edited September 24, 2015 by --Sensei--

[stoybot]

I realized my math was a bit off when I woke up today but Warframe Builder already has it in its database so I might as well use its damage calculator from now on:

 

Spira: http://goo.gl/ZImnSU

Silent Lex Prime: http://goo.gl/eXt7eK

 

I'll let you be the dudge on which is the better stealth weapon...

 

It's still better than the Despair but I encountered a pretty big issue when I was levelling it up - every second shot ends up below the previous one. Seriously, half the shots end up below where you want them to be on a weapon that really benefits from headshots... I'll assume it's a bug.

[ashrah]

for every wepo multishot is to good to not be used.... wen u max wepon  u get dramatic bonus dmg...

[Aggh]

For rapid fire secondary weapons such as Aksomati and Akzani, Lethal Torrent just isn't worth it. Numbers are numbers and on paper it may do more DeePeeEss, but the feel of the weapon and its ammo consumption are important also. People often overlook utility for sheer damage but in the long run that could make a weapon less usable faster.

If you're playing at levels where ammo consumption is actually a concern, wasting ammo on enemies is pretty hard to do.  The 80% chance to get a third free bullet for every bullet fired also makes ammo consumption less of a concern.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Aggh

[stoybot]

Go in game and actually test these builds out. Because if your just looking at the numbers your not testing the actual weapon functionally. I remember when the Prisma Skana came out and people started comparing numbers of the Skana to the Dakra P. Most people looked at the numbers and assumed the Skana was better but in game the Dakra was still superior.

 

"Whatever lives long is gradually so saturated with reason that its irrational origins become improbable."

 

Fact is, the Prisma Skana was never better than the Dakra Prime in terms of raw DPS, and if you actually bothered looking at Warframe Builder's numbers, you'd clearly see that. But I suppose it's easier to repeat what Mogamu said in a video where he never showed the WB calculations despite criticizing it for being inaccurate relative to in-engine performance... Also, speaking of in-engine performance, I guess a 1,000 damage AoE proc that strips armor doesn't make a big difference in practical DPS.

[Acidulant]

Boohoo they just made my favorite super rare throwing daggers Despair worse than this chinese flaps attached throwing knives according to sheet DPS

 

this must be the power creep and evildoing of the atrocious DE

Edited September 24, 2015 by Acidulant

[TARINunit9]

you're going to use Elementals on Despair/Kunai, and Crits on Spira.

both should have an identical Loadout except for Spira replacing two of the weakest Elementals with Crit Mods.

This is exactly what OP's equations assume: that the two weapons share their first six mods (Hornet Strike, etc.) and only differ in terms of crit mods on Spira and non-crit mods on Despair

Edited September 24, 2015 by TARINunit9