Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[RFaul]

That's it. A fine exemple of what happens to gameplay  that isn't condoned by the community. In modern games deviant gameplay should always be blocked by design.

[MechaKnight]

I'll contribute. See my post here and adapt whatever you wish from it for inspiration.

[GhostLacuna]

After hours of testing i have decided that since she now suffer from a classic MAD issue aka Multi Ability Dependency i will just ignore 3 and 4.

 

They actually bring nothing to the table for me at all.

 

Toxin lash is still the same single target in your face thing contagion was. 

 

Miasma has one use only for me now the slight stagger of around 3 seconds it gives when cast.

 

BTW DE we can count Venom had 6 spores on cast. Spore only have 3 why did you change the total of spores the ability cast on the enemies?

 

From playtesting i forsee that molt bombing will be how most people will play Saryn going forward.

 

Still Molt lasted around 2 seconds against heavy gunners on a t2 ext test. Good for when you want to molt bomb them but terrible for durability and safety.

 

Also you forgot to fix Molt so that it works with range mods again.  It still defaults to a 10 meter explosion no matter if i have 145% range, 190% range or 235% range.

Edited November 5, 2015 by GhostLacuna

[PAX_NL]

Good suggestions Darzk.

I like the rework too, but it could use some tweaking here and there to make her powers more user friendly. 

[RHuckebein]

I disagree that she scales better in end game now. I took saryn to raids and T4 missions and even endurance runs all the time and did really well (up until we would run into lvl 300+ enemies but nothing holds up too well against them, except for two Equinox's). The bottom line is that even with the combo her ult does less damage. The numbers literally don't add up when you compare the damage her ult did before to what it does now with this combo.

 

There's no 'agree' or 'disagree' about how well she scales into end-game now.  She scales worse.  It's an objective fact.  Her CC is worse and Spore isn't as good as Venom at spreading viral procs.

[-DragonOfTheWest-]

I've noticed that when an enemy ground pounds it removes the spores from them and they do not spread. Making you have to  recast.

[tocorro]

Nice ideas. +1

[FitzSimmons]

I ended up just using my weapons and using her 2 when I got surrounded. Just gave up on using 1,2 and 3 because they're useless.

i bet you used her 4 only and your weapon before revision lol. pretty much the same you before and after revision

[Darzk]

I'll contribute. See my post here and adapt whatever you wish from it for inspiration.

Nice. I knew I forgot something; the Molt's durability stands out, I'll add it in.

 

I would note that pre-corrupted mods Saryn was also Venom 1.0 Saryn, which was incredibly powerful at higher levels because it stacked endlessly and didn't reduce in effectiveness when spread. Long duration Venom was one of the best ways of killing rooms of high level enemies. 

 

 

Molt got a nice bump in aggro/threat, enemies do target it frequently now, and that can sortof be used to help mitigate team damage while DoT's are ticking away. But it is quite squishy.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Darzk

[RealPandemonium]

 

Wish people stop trying to use simucrum to try to show saryns potential

As opposed to waiting an hour for level 100s to show up and then failing the mission because you were trying to take screenshots in an uncontrolled environment where you can't accurately observe anything?  

 

Her Miasma and Viral procs can be used to eventually wear down armor at  rapid pace. 

 

I ended up using Melee because it had the survivability I needed with block. Also tried Embolist and Ignis modded for Viral but didn't have much success.

Miasma:

Pros:

- Corrosive procs!

- A bit of a stun.

 

Saryn has no innate armor-stripping options.  Miasma still does not proc, ever.  Viral procs also don't affect armor.

 

Modding your weapon for Viral is pointless since you can trivially spread Viral on everything in the tile.  What you want is an Ignis modded for 100% Gas proc.  That will spread Gas procs across a whole legion of enemies in a flash, as well as spreading Spores (and thus Viral proc) to the whole group as well.  Then your Miasma will deal 3x damage to the whole group, on top of other benefits like overlapping Toxin procs (from the Gas procs) spreading via Spore.

 

There's no 'agree' or 'disagree' about how well she scales into end-game now.  She scales worse.  It's an objective fact.  Her CC is worse and Spore isn't as good as Venom at spreading viral procs.

Spore is better than Venom at spreading Viral; add a range mod and the whole map will be afflicted in no time.  

 

CC has not decreased.  Miasma confers the same stagger it always has, and Molt's aggro draw and durability are the same.

 

Best of all is that she can take advantage of Spore and Venom alongside Miasma instead of having to choose between Miasma and poor Miasma.  

 

Miasma shares Accelerant's stagger effect, which lasts 4-5 seconds on humanoids, 3-4 on MOAs and most Infested, and 2-3 on Chargers.  

Edited November 5, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Reifnir]

You might want to re-think this rework altogether, DE.

It did NOT add any depth or complexity to Saryn, it only made her more clunky and less useful at the same time. 

You want a toxic frame that is not a press-4-to-win? Start thinking in the direction of sustained toxic/slowing auras, stacking debuffs, and integrating ranged weapons into all that somehow now that you've cut down Saryn's EHP. 

[RamboJezus]

She's significantly worse off than where she was prior.

I'm really not understanding how people call this a buff in any way.

The gauge on how strong a frame is typically relegated to how they perform in high end content. Her performance has been relegated to the mediocre category in this regard.

Yes she can still clear the star chart. What warframe can't do that though?

[Archenius]

Pure Nerf

 

The ONLY and I mean the ONLY reason Saryn was wanted as a frame in a group was for her Burst DPS.

 

This is gone so the frame has no value to a group, almost any frame can do sustained DPS and still bring more to the group.

 

It is now just Mastery Fodder.

And now the nerf is abused and lost its meaning I will take your opinion as a grain of salt if you actually think in your bias opinion she is "pure nerf"

[HalfDarkShadow]

I'll contribute. See my post here and adapt whatever you wish from it for inspiration.

 

Though I'm pretty happy with everything, one thing I was thinking this past day while messing around with her was this bit you brought up:

 

3) Combos are expensive. It was nice to see her base energy increased to 150, but in practice she uses more energy than is comfortable refilling without a supporter like Limbo or Trinity. She's simply very inefficient now. She would greatly benefit from a combo mechanic to discount energy costs. See Atlas and Valkyr's energy reductions. Casting various abilities in a chain reduces the overall cost of these actions. Saryn definitely needs this feature.

 

I was actually thinking this would be very nice to have (which I thought they were going to throw something like that of the same nature), as I noticed currently, you could on average rotate the whole set about 2 to 3 times before needing to find more energy, assuming you went for a full 175% cost reduction.

 

I don't mind the duration too much now, even unfortunately I'm standing at I believe 108% because of that issues with a few frames like her that rely on duration, efficiency, and strength, and you have to be very particular with how you mod them, as you'll only end up getting less-then-ideal results in my opinion. Especially if you want to keep a nice balance, you're not going to hit any stat above 150% other then efficiency in some cases. But I digress haha.

 

Other then that, I liked both of you and the OP's ideas!

I only don't agree with your statement on how you feel she doesn't have a niche currently, as she still has some nice places even now, even if there not obvious ones i.e. the Spore augment party builds that increase toxin damage, as I've seen and been in some pretty crazy runs with the right setup.

But still, that's few and far between as you implied in your post, that even though I gave one example, 2 or 3 more of her rolls that she did fit nicely in are lessened and/or diminished all together.

 

Last thing to note, is based this past month on how they've been reworking her, I don't believe they wanted her to end up being a mainly a burst-dps Frame like she previously was, despite them mentioning you can still build her that way with similar results. Which I'm all fine for, but with everything else, especially energy cost still needs some minor tweaks.

 

This is also coming from a guy who has never bother to build a Miasma build beyond one or so occassions, as for years I always built for duration via Viral-debuff build, just because I love her 1st ability over any other of her skills lol. So take it with a grain-of-salt if you will haha~

Edited November 5, 2015 by HalfDarkShadow

[Rikage]

Maybe.

Wheres the 200/100 and 75/100 coming from though btw? That the Toxin AND Viral damage stacking on Miasma? (not really had a look into the maths myself yet)

200/100 is me being lazy, it's actually (100+100)/100, and yes, this is from the viral and toxin bonuses. the 75/100 is because ancients are fossilized body type, meaning +++ weakness to corrosion

[HalfDarkShadow]

Nice. I knew I forgot something; the Molt's durability stands out, I'll add it in.

 

I would note that pre-corrupted mods Saryn was also Venom 1.0 Saryn, which was incredibly powerful at higher levels because it stacked endlessly and didn't reduce in effectiveness when spread. Long duration Venom was one of the best ways of killing rooms of high level enemies. 

 

Molt got a nice bump in aggro/threat, enemies do target it frequently now, and that can sortof be used to help mitigate team damage while DoT's are ticking away. But it is quite squishy.

 

Oh gosh the good old days haha. That's a good point you made, as I was about to edit my post and mention this! lol.

 

Gosh I remember when Spores used to take over entire rooms at a time, to the point of game-breaking lag for a lot of players. I am really happy now to see the Spore spread limit increase with little issues regarding performance! x)

[-Ozymandias-]

i personally hate the word DPS so much.

[RHuckebein]

 

 

As opposed to waiting an hour for level 100s to show up and then failing the mission because you were trying to take screenshots in an uncontrolled environment where you can't accurately observe anything?  

 

Saryn has no innate armor-stripping options.  Miasma still does not proc, ever.  Viral procs also don't affect armor.

 

Modding your weapon for Viral is pointless since you can trivially spread Viral on everything in the tile.  What you want is an Ignis modded for 100% Gas proc.  That will spread Gas procs across a whole legion of enemies in a flash, as well as spreading Spores (and thus Viral proc) to the whole group as well.  Then your Miasma will deal 3x damage to the whole group, on top of other benefits like overlapping Toxin procs (from the Gas procs) spreading via Spore.

 

Spore is better than Venom at spreading Viral; add a range mod and the whole map will be afflicted in no time.  

 

CC has not decreased.  Miasma confers the same stagger it always has, and Molt's aggro draw and durability are the same.

 

Best of all is that she can take advantage of Spore and Venom alongside Miasma instead of having to choose between Miasma and poor Miasma.  

 

Venom spread viral across the whole map faster because it spread more.

 

And you're right that you can't choose between miasma and poor miasma.  you can only choose poor miasma.  Old Miasma was better than current miasma even if you weren't tanking duration.

 

The ONLY thing that improved was the ability to cast spore on molt.  That's it.  That is literally the only relevant improvement in the nerf, as toxic lash is still a waste of energy and a cast animation.  Better to just use a kohm/ignis/pyrana/atomos/whatever.

[RamboJezus]

i personally hate the word DPS so much.

Well it isn't a word it's an acronym.

Edited November 5, 2015 by RamboJezus

[_Raiklar_]

You know they are changing Ash's ultimate don't you.

yes unfortunately and they're planning on changing it again. If I understand right. it will be a show instead of an ult. as now the clones will do bladestorm but you get to just watch.

[Xentia-Damascus]

Where is my option for I still think she is in the same rut she started in?

[Ziegrif]

Where's the Both/ Neither option?

Because I think both kinda happened.

[Numbsky1]

I can't help but feel like 90% of the salt here is from players who live on Draco.

 

     Anyway, So far so good with Saryn's rework, The energy buff was much appreciated, and the Skill synergy works very well even at very high tier. I'm still doing more testing but I have to agree it would be nice if Spore provided some benefit upon death if no spores were popped.  Additionally someone else mentioned making Molt capable of recasting so it'd detonate for free, This would be another great QoL tweak, but aside from these two things I think she's really good where she is.

 

On a last note I really think the community needs time to adjust to the changes before collecting feedback. The kneejerk is very real.

Entirely missing the point of most complaints either your testing involved 1 run of simularcum or just theory crafting. Go play the game and then come back instead of the game "simulator".  

 

Holy crap does Saryn burn through energy fast.

 

Too fast to be anywhere remotely close to useful. I also agree with a lot of the people saying that individually, her powers aren't actually all that great and have to be chained in order for her to deal damage. This however feeds into problem one... She burns through energy like no other.

 

Also, why was her survivability nerfed? Toxic lash requires going into close quarters, which opens her up to more damage. I don't see the rationale here. Also is it just me or does Miasma have no effect on enemies beyond arms length with no range mods? :\

Read this again, because this guy nails the issue pretty good  

 

I actually enjoy this rework.

At least all of her skills now have a usefulness and some degree of efficiency depending on the situation.

 

She became a constant caster with multiple options to enhance her attacks. You now just need to either combine skills to maximize effects or cast one of them and rely on weapon to propagate it in some way or another.

Her newly changed first three abilities are a relief to me. I missed a decent venom (ok, spore) since it went down the nerf road. The rework put it back on my fav list. Now molt finally has a real aggro zone that is not only noticeable but can turn into a real game changer if used properly. Toxic lash is also very friendly to my perma-channeling weapons.

I don't mind that her miasma has been somehow downgraded. The trade is fair and I hate mono skill games. Now Saryn needs a quick mind to adapt to the situation and I love it.

Does it need tweaks and tuning? Yes, as has been the case after every rework.

She now relies too heavily on every single enhancement mod (duration, power and range) and creating a build I can see as my definitive loadout has been (and still is) a pain today. Her life/armour changes made her weaker and combined with the building troubles, I can't see any way to use syndicate mods so far.

 

Anyway, she's fun and I'll see how it turns in the next few weeks.

Seeing the issues through too much rose coloured glasses but at least the primary concerns were seen.

 

In a nutshell each ability for itself is too weak alone, you have to use them in a combo which in turns burns through your energy pool albeit buffed way too fast. The fact that you have to use them in a combo ain´t that problematic in terms of complexitiy (pressing more buttons, uhh complicated, can only be mastered by a selected few), the energy issue is.  The next question is, what does the new Saryn bring to the table that other Frames do not? In her current state, not that much since even the group synergy with spores is poor. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Numbsky1

[Weltraumfred]

I was maining Saryn for quite a long time. Had her configured as a tank / short range nuke (just the fleeting expertise/transient fortitude combo, no range mods ... didn't want to spoil my teammates fun by killing everything in the room in one go). Then I got word of the rework and thought "hey, this is propably a good thing. I mean negative Duration Miasma will propably go out of the window (and that's good) and her other powers will likely get to be more viable, so I won't be gunning down enemies and press 4 once in a while. Oh, and she might get a little extra armor, cuz DE seems to be increasing armor all over the board."

 

Well, I got 20 points of armor.

 

The synergy feels forced, she is to fragile to stay in the field while her powers melt her enemies, she uses far too much power, and I think her Miasma does even less base damage than before, and spread it out over several seconds.

 

And I know that this is pissing me off way more than it should, because essentially, we are talking about a free online game about Ninja-Space-Meat-Robot-Thingies, but man it does piss me off a lot. 

 

So I might try to give her a very through spin on the weekend, likely confirming my thoughts, and then take a very big break from Warframe. And also, bad DE, no Platinum or eurobucks for you.

[gyubal]

In my humble opinion...

Spores - need coplete rework maybe something between Oberons Smite and Swarm-Mutalist MOA projectiles

Molt - need more range and HP

Toxic Lash - should be applied to ANY equipped weapon

Peace out.