Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[RealPandemonium]

isn't this exactly the point? if it is like impossible to fail in the first 30waves, why I have to waste time on that.

this just show how bad the level and reward system is badly designed which encourage people to be factories

still nothing about insurance, since if you don't get what you wanted, you won't end up an hour in a mission, those extra reward are next to worthless and people probably won't feel anything if they lose those

There's no doubt that the current reward system is junk.  Missions should be challenging, but rewarding.  Right now nothing is challenging because players are too strong.  But when things get moderately nerfed people go crazy because their favorite cheese tool is no longer there and the grind got slightly more complicated.  DE needs to nerf player options hard, so that the first 30 waves do matter.  And in turn, DE should make those waves fun and challenging, instead of taken for granted and essentially skipped via factory farming methods that should not exist in the first place.  

[akira_him]

You don't get it RealPandemonium, people like that want full on dynasty warriors. People like that want to just mindlessly dominate enemies without ever giving them a ability to fight back moderately. People like that think challange equates to time-spent in a mission. It's a challenge for them to spend time actually paying attention to the game, so when you put the breaks on their party train they get all flustered.

bosses of dynasty warriors could be quite hard, in comparison our bosses are just, meh

[Rhaenxys]

I hope the molt increased duration is not what they mean for survivability...

 

Just change the DR while blocking from toxic lash into a normal DR and revert her hp nerf.

[akira_him]

There's no doubt that the current reward system is junk. Missions should be challenging, but rewarding. Right now nothing is challenging because players are too strong. But when things get moderately nerfed people go crazy because their favorite cheese tool is no longer there and the grind got slightly more complicated. DE needs to nerf player options hard, so that the first 30 waves do matter. And in turn, DE should make those waves fun and challenging, instead of taken for granted and essentially skipped via factory farming methods that should not exist in the first place.

I guess they should fix doubled rng on void key acquirement and the drop table frist before this happens

I hope the molt increased duration is not what they mean for survivability...

Just change the DR while blocking from toxic lash into a normal DR and revert her hp nerf.

hit: why overheat was removed

[RealPandemonium]

bosses of dynasty warriors could be quite hard, in comparison our bosses are just, meh

Give Zhao Yun a 1mil damage Tonkor and he'll show you how meh Lu Bu becomes.  

[StahlEngel]

The whole issue with Saryn is not so much the frame or frame abilities, It has to do with the games combat mechanics, The game has been built around swarm tactics and not so much single target play, this has caused everyone to build frames for fast group killing which has by default made any DOT frames very undesirable as at low levels they appear to work but at end game levels they don't the other thing that causes issue with older frames is damage 2.0 as now things have elemental resistances and in Saryn's case poison is kinda useless against ancients and corpus robotic units, and prior to the rework miasma's corrosive attack made using it more viable for end game than it is now. What needs to be done is not constantly trying to rework frames but more to the point is analyze the builds people use and understand that the builds are a direct result of the games combat mechanics and it's the games combat mechanics that needs to be reworked, and by trying to change a frame to suit how you think it should be played only causes people to stop using a frame as it no longer works for the style of combat we currently have.

[akira_him]

Give Zhao Yun a 1mil damage Tonkor and he'll show you how meh Lu Bu becomes.

dynasty warriors don't have endless, we should also get rid of it but I think we are derailed, I still haven't tried saryn after this hot fix but by frist impression,

you need to kill an enemy to get just 2 energy back? I don't think de knows what they want saryn to be, all those are kind of meh, they kept focus on melee and don't give her reliable defence,

molt reliability highly depends on tileset, sure it can last long if set up well but molt is not decoy, you need to go to the setting point, not just place it, still not reliable

[RealPandemonium]

The whole issue with Saryn is not so much the frame or frame abilities, It has to do with the games combat mechanics, The game has been built around swarm tactics and not so much single target play, this has caused everyone to build frames for fast group killing which has by default made any DOT frames very undesirable as at low levels they appear to work but at end game levels they don't the other thing that causes issue with older frames is damage 2.0 as now things have elemental resistances and in Saryn's case poison is kinda useless against ancients and corpus robotic units, and prior to the rework miasma's corrosive attack made using it more viable for end game than it is now. What needs to be done is not constantly trying to rework frames but more to the point is analyze the builds people use and understand that the builds are a direct result of the games combat mechanics and it's the games combat mechanics that needs to be reworked, and by trying to change a frame to suit how you think it should be played only causes people to stop using a frame as it no longer works for the style of combat we currently have.

1. Miasma (and Saryn in general) is still an effective swarm killer.  Spores make the whole swarm take double damage, and status-boosted Miasma only deals 10% less damage compared to the old Miasma (before you consider the 2x damage from the Viral proc.)  It does take 4 seconds to deal this damage, but enemies will be staggered for that whole duraton (except for MOAs and chargers, which are staggered for half of it.)  

 

2. Toxin does half damage to Ancients's Fossilized health but Corrosive (which Miasma deals) does 75% bonus damage to them.  Robots take 25% less damage from Toxin but it ignores their shields, attacking health directly (which is already being halved by Viral status.)  Robots also take full damage from Viral and Corrosive.  

 

3.  Miasma still deals Corrosive damage, and old Miasma wasn't able to proc anyway.  It did and still does deal 75% extra damage to and ignores 75% of Ferrite armor.

[RealPandemonium]

I still haven't tried saryn after this hot fix but by frist impression, you need to kill an enemy to get just 2 energy back?

I think it's supposed to give you the energy each time you pop a spore with Toxic Lash.  The note says "destoy" instead of "kill" or "pop/burst," so it's ambiguous and appears to be typoed.  

[TheBrsrkr]

It's a pointless struggle old saryn was a low level steamroller, new saryn is still a low level lawn mower.

After 90+ feedback pages, they gave us irrelevant changes.

 

I'm sure in some mystical world where coding is magic someone can go through 90+ pages of feedback in detail AND through all the threads that aren't archive the changes, pick which ones they want, give a proper scale and number then materialize them with sheer force of will into the game just as fast as it takes to tone down some effects and  tweak some numbers that may or may not had been planned beforehand but didn't make the time limit on the first tweaks, but here in reality things like that don't happen.

[Exodess]

I feel the need to emphasize this here because it's more relevant to this topic than the original thread it was posted under.

 

 

Let's all agree that Saryn's balance concerns have to do with one glaring problem with the game: There is no ceiling on the difficulty.

 

I believe it was quoted somewhere that if it has stats, players will be driven to kill it. In gaming, this dates back to the Lord British Postulate, though given some ancient myths and stories of heroism I'd say this behavior has probably existed as part of human nature since before our distant ancestors started walking on two legs. 

 

As long as enemies have no maximum level or stat scaling, Warframe abilities and weapons will continue to be judged based on either A) how fast they can kill an enemy of such high level that its armor prevents any but a certain subset of options being anywhere near functional under that scenario, or B) how well its non-damage components prevent players from being damaged either through enfeeblement or absorption mechanics.

 

Now before this stirs up any of the ultra-endgame metagamers, I completely respect that there are players who enjoy playing hundreds of rounds of defense or hours of Survival and I'm not promoting a cap on endless mission enemy levels. What's done is done. What I do promote, however, is that even if weapons cannot all scale against enemies, at least Warframe functionality (this not just meaning "damage") should be comparably effective when judged alongside its peers no matter the level of enemy being fought. That is, every Warframe should bring something to the table that is unique or paired well enough that another particular Warframe does not outclass it by default, which is currently the precise issue with Saryn: This newfound diversity bent she's on has killed her scalability.

 

So, as long as players are trying to kill something that has no real limit, we are always going to compare the tools used to face those challenges. The Warframes aren't just weapons though -- they're our characters, our avatars. Some of us are particularly attached to certain ones as a result of these being an extension of our virtual identity, which adds a whole new dimension to this argument.

 

 

My point being: DE needs to recognize that these gimmicks they're sticking on Saryn need to be judged on the basis of whether they will make her comparable (White Knights, please read before you hurl more blind insults: This means relatably equal to, though not superior) to alternative Warframes in a similar scenario under the harshest conditions, and not just plug holes in her design. Because, right now, I feel they are suffering severe tunnel-vision, in that they are not focusing on what everyone else can do in comparison to her.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Exodess

[YANJIUDING]

Her skill set guarantees more satisfaction now than old miasma, which simply vaporized everything from the map. I really enjoy spreading spores on the whole map.

 

However she still needs some more survivability when fighting high level enemies as a melee frame. A way to CC enemies so that she can cheese through them with melee (all she has now is a 3 sec stun that costs 100 energy), or at least a method to retreat and recover when surrounded by high level enemies that she cannot easily eliminate. She doesn't has to be Loki, going invisible and shooting mindless targets, soloing into T4S 80 min until his weapons can no longer kill anything; or Excalibro, blinding a whole room of enemies then smash mobs into pieces with stealth energy blades or one shot lv 150 heavy gunner with finisher; or Valkyr, simply a Press 4 to God Mode... But we can certainly find a wiser way to improve her survivability while still requiring skills and strategy to use.

 

Here's my suggestion:

 

--Molt

 

The main problem of this ability is, as Saryn's only survivability skill, it doens't help anything when being surrounded by a group of enemies, and dies way too fast due to its poor hp. I wish at least one of, or all of these 3 improvements can be made to molt:

 

1. Give molt snowball mechanics. 4 sec (or longer) invulnerability and absorbs incoming damage into health and damage when explode. This has been suggested by many.

 

2. Saryn goes invisible for a few seconds (shorter than Ash's 8 sec Smoke Screen) when a molt is casted. The invisibility is deactivated whenever Saryn performs any form of attack (except casting spore), the timer expires, or the molt is destroyed. Saryn can perform a finisher attack on the first enemy she melees under invisible, no matter whether the enemy is alerted or not. This is inspired by the Body Replacement Jutsu in Naruto.

 

3. Multiple instances of molts can be created, each one has its own health pool, providing better distraction. Kinda like Gundam F91's Metal Peel Off Effect.

 

--Toxic Lash

 

Toggle without duration on please. 

 

--Miasma

 

Guaranteed corrosive proc on each tick.

 

Apologize for the tons of grammar and spelling mistakes. English is not my first language though...

Edited November 10, 2015 by YANJIUDING

[Skirvy]

Does Saryn's 25% boost to status duration apply only to her abilities, or to procs by her weapons as well?

 

I have what might be a really good idea that makes everyone happy, and I just need to know this to put the finishing touches on the concept.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Skirvy

[_Raiklar_]

I wonder with everyone that asked for her to have a rework and now that she has one. Since it came out. I don't see anyone using her anymore. Well i guess its true. Be careful what you ask for cause you might actually get it. and with all the truth being spoken here. I'm very much surprised that this thread is still up. Imo, it seems that when the community actually debates something that DE did at the request of the community it usually get lock before anyone can talk about it. As if they don't want the feedback the ask for on something they did. in the glorious name of balance and the leveling of the playing field. But you know this will never truly happen as long as scaling is so rediculously broken. but hey thats just my opinion.

[Thaumatos]

I wonder with everyone that asked for her to have a rework and now that she has one. Since it came out. I don't see anyone using her anymore. Well i guess its true. Be careful what you ask for cause you might actually get it. and with all the truth being spoken here. I'm very much surprised that this thread is still up. Imo, it seems that when the community actually debates something that DE did at the request of the community it usually get lock before anyone can talk about it. As if they don't want the feedback the ask for on something they did. in the glorious name of balance and the leveling of the playing field. But you know this will never truly happen as long as scaling is so rediculously broken. but hey thats just my opinion.

Scott's working on damage...in all aspects.  That will most likely effect scaling (and definitely multi-shot...thank God).

 

As for Saryn, it was only a matter of time before her OP was knocked off her kit.  Anyone who thought otherwise was just fooling themselves.  Just like Mesa.

 

Just like the now "Godmode" Valkyr.  She'll get nerfed too.

 

Why does no one see this? ...

[NezuHimeSama]

The only disappointment imho is that this rework didn't change miasma into a channeling aura. It'd be much more interesting if it was channeling and did 200 base damage(and maybe 10% chance of corrosive?) per tick to anything in the aura radius while the aura is active, providing a 2s stun and consuming 50nrg, maybe with some bonus damage, upon activation.

As is, Saryn is too similar to the 4frame she was before, just with a huge nerf to her 4, and some buffs to her other moves. Love the changes to molt and spore, and it seems like Toxic Lash is much better now too, though I haven't really used it and still think it should buff more than just melee damage. But, miasma is the same as it was before, except worse.

[Rankii]

It's poison. Really it's possibly the only damage type that can reasonably scale off of health percentages instead of just damage.

 

Spore ticks around 10%, Miasma ticks 20%.

This makes her good in all levels because she won't be the nuke that S#&$ters fear, but still able to wipe out mobs

 

Don't get me wrong; i don't think highly of the new saryn and the only thing keeping me from properly voicing that is a really observant community moderator and this flimsy wordfilter that turns all my lovely swear words into gibberish. But this small change would make a huge difference in how the poison feels in most areas.

 

ALso, since I had forgotten I was in a hotfix thread I will repost it here.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, THE DEVIL, AND BOB PLEASE MAKE THIS THRICE ACCURSED SKIRT AND FLOWER REMOVEABLE AND PLACED UNDER THE AUXILLARY CATEGORY. LOOK HOW GREAT SARYN LOOKS WITHOUT IT

Edited November 10, 2015 by Rankii

[Windy_Wind]

Molt with snow globe treatment

 

Toxic slash with auto-block like excal

 

Miasma with 100% corrosive proc per tick

 

I guess that's not hard to implement?

[ENIAK_Prime]

 

This is just with spore and molt (AND MIASMA)

Fixed.

[GhostLacuna]

Saryn Changes

 

• 1. Reduced the particle FX on Saryn’s Spore when spreading between enemies to address performance issues.
  
• 2. Doubled the duration of Saryn’s Molt.
  
• 3. Saryn’s Spores now cost half normal energy when cast on Molt.
  
• 4. Destroying an enemy affected by Saryn’s Spores with Toxic Lash will now restore 2 energy to Saryn.
  
• 5. Saryn’s Toxic Lash can now be recast to refresh its duration.
  

1. Ok fix for peformance. 

2. DE do you even playtest Saryn at all? You could boost the duration to 2 hours and it would still change nothing. Heck you could lower it to 2 seconds and it would provide the same benefit it does now.  I have tested the durability of molt over and over. 

 

Level 42 enemies on appolodorus Mercury at the 38 min mark killed My Molt in 2 seconds flat. Ceres top of at level 31-47 in none endless missions. Void enemies sneeze at molt and its gone.  The duration of the ability is totally irrelevant, when it cant even last 1/8 of its duration in total uptime. 

 

And since you designed Regenerative molt so that its healing stop the instant molt is destroyed, we cant even use it reliable for that. 

 

AS it is not Molt does not draw aggro enough nor does it paper light durability even allow it to last long enough to even help you revive a teammate.

 

3. Is a start but why not give it the same treatment as valkyrs ripline or Atlas landslide already? Why should we waste 50 energy (at base efficiency) to cast a 25(at base efficiency) energy cost ability  for 12.5 energy. 

 

i will be wasting 12.50 energy to cast a ability to that costs me 6.25 just to ensure it costs me 3.125 energy.  I am sorry DE but why should i not just cast spore twice for the energy cost of molt?

 

i mean 6.25+6.25= 12.50 this is basic math. 

 

4. Is a step in the right direction but, your own abilities, your teammates and your kubrow or sentinel will disrupt that energy restore functionality all the time. 

 

Toxic lash is a single target melee only ability. Its short range ensure that enemies will be dead before you reach them due to teammates etc. 

 

Even if you manage to get within melee range in time you get 2 energy for one enemy. With a slower weapon that is all you will get. 

 

The fact that toxic lashs blocking only work in equipped melee and only when your blocking mean it is quite dangerous to use in any mission where the enemies are over level 40 aka the last 3 planets in the starchart + any void mission at all. 

 

The fact that you cant block and swing your weapon at the same time also makes toxic lash blocking buff only effective as a close the gap effect nothing else. 

 

This is on a frame that has no Hard CC at all. 

 

Miasma costs 100 energy at base 25 energy for my Saryn.  Now why would i waste 25 energy on a short 4 sec stagger that wont work at all on some enemies like corpus ospreys. 

 

Will only work on some heavy units some of the time. Heavy gunners and bombards are immune to the stagger once they are in their ground pound animation. 

 

Also its not possible at the moment to mod for an extended stagger what so ever. The stagger is always a maximum of 4 seconds no matter what mods you use on Saryn. 

 

You clearly want us to run around in only our melee weapons blocking left, right center and using toxic lash alongside spores. Why then have you provided the frame with nothing that applies to this play style except the blocking modifier on toxic lash?

 

A blocking modifer that is gone the instant you attack?

 

For a frame that has one ability for melee you sure seems focused to force us to use it. 

Edited November 10, 2015 by GhostLacuna

[Colonel_Ignes]

 

Scott's working on damage...in all aspects.  That will most likely effect scaling (and definitely multi-shot...thank God).

 

As for Saryn, it was only a matter of time before her OP was knocked off her kit.  Anyone who thought otherwise was just fooling themselves.  Just like Mesa.

 

Just like the now "Godmode" Valkyr.  She'll get nerfed too.

 

Why does no one see this? ...

 

This exemplifies why people hate the forums. "You don't think like I think?! You have no place here! You obviously don't know what you're doing, you obviously don't understand game design, Get good etc".

Instead of saying, hey, I really care a lot about this game, I've invested a stupid number of hours into it, I believe wholeheartedly in the concept, and I deeply desire for it to continue to attract and maintain a player base.  In order to do this a game needs balancing to protect its longevity, we may disagree on where exactly that balance lies but if you look to other games which have not done this it has cost them big time in regards to their finance and lifespan (and here people could debate on whether that was the factor that actually lead to its downfall etc). In contrast to that people default back to this tasteless arrogance which does little to actually convince anyone and usually turns people away from actual thoughtful propositions.  

I fundamentally disagree with a lot of the "balancing" crowd not because the game doesn't need it, but of the manner and persona motivating the changes. You want to get rid of "press 4 to win" and yet you'll stop the argument around whatever frame and ignore Excalibur, who can out damage any frame by just spamming E in the context of his 4 and largely block anyone from getting kills. Where does it end? Can the new Ember "negate all enemy threat" to a large degree just by toggling her World on Fire (press 4, win)? Should we also nerf (oh excuse me "balance") Trinity's Blessing? Ash's Bladestorm, Nova's Molecular Prime, Vauban's Bastille because there is too much crowd control or not enough enemy threat/risk of failure to validate your subjective viewpoint? At what juncture do we stop? At what point do you say this toxic and vocal minority on the forums have stopped playing the game and just use this place as a platform for venting their frustrations of the grind, bugs, or other aspects of their lives? Truth is I don't know and its perfectly acceptable to have a cathartic exposition on changes to promote acceptance/understanding and yet to me most of these people keep asking for changes which will ultimately lead to a watered-down Warframe that nobody wants to play.

 

Edit: Personally I enjoy the Exal rework and exalted blade is interesting, just considering the full ramifications of some perspectives I've seen which seem short-sighted and inconsistent. (Yes I could be wrong)

 

Saryn arguably needed changes, and I personally love the character of these changes, however as it stands these alterations by themselves do not fit the game's current design/ player's needs (again my opinion). She still needs some tweaks and saying "Op, nerf, nerf, how do you not see this? Is an empty argument which ignores much larger issues affecting this game which should be talked about to keep the game headed in the right direction. 

 

I know some forum posts make you feel like this 

but please, please, push past the need to feel superior and treat people with some respect.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Colonel_Ignes

[akira_him]

I think it's supposed to give you the energy each time you pop a spore with Toxic Lash.  The note says "destoy" instead of "kill" or "pop/burst," so it's ambiguous and appears to be typoed.  

Turns out it recovers 2 energy (non-mod-able) popping one spore, well, one step towards right direction

now the problem is survivability

doubling molt duration is kind of meh

with toxic lash, when you swing your weapon, you lose the block bonus,

I guess I could handle that with miasma's stun /s

now I need primed reach

Edited November 10, 2015 by akira_him

[Shryoss]

I still don't understand the reduced health....

 

Anyway, Glaive doesn't seem to restore energy with the new mechanic. I haven't extensively tested it, but I know for sure that doesn't matter if I equip it or not or throw it or not it doesn't replenish the said 2 energy (yes, Toxic Lash active, enemies had spores). Maybe one of the mods are interfering.

Also, this mechanic is an interesting change, but do you really think when the enemies get tougher you will be able to kill them to get back 2 energy? Why not get energy back for popping the spores? Would make more sense and it would be viable past mid tier enemies. I still think though that her 3rd ability needs a whole rework or something, because melee doesn't suit Saryn in my honest opinion. I kinda wanted to bypass this with a Glaive, since you can throw that, but it doesn't work..... Bug or intended? It's melee a weapon after all....

[Rhaenxys]

Can we finally tweak toxic lash to affect glaive`s throwing attack? also, her survivability is still a problem, that needs changes desperately.

[Skadedyr]

You said that you used Miasma as insurance.  So if you weren't afraid of losing rewards, then you were afraid of being able to lose, period?  I thought the whole point of not using THE BEST BUILD is having fun because you're being challenged.  What's the point of a challenge if the training wheels are still on?

 

Have you ever considered that some people like to play in easy mode just because they don't want to try hard for a change?

 

That's what I'm trying to tell you, I play Warframe for fun and to have a break from some other (very) competitive games. That doesn't mean I don't like a challenge (solo-ing Trin on 90 minute T4S is just as fun for me), but it's nice to have options.

 

For me the old Miasma was able to change the grind in Warframe by rapidly dispatching the mind clogging masses and leaving the heavies behind to engage in a more challenging way. It's about having fun and having options. Feel free to hate on the old Saryn, I don't mind, but what's wrong with some acceptance that some people liked her that way (not to mention she was hardly ever used by the masses)? 

 

That's also why I said I don't get people like you. Apparently you think that every Warframe in game should be on par with your level of challenge/fun/playstyles to a point where other opinions no longer matter ... just because you think they are doing it wrong.

 

That said, I'm loving the new changes on Saryn so far. :-)