Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[GideonG]

Taxic Lash restoring energy when killing Spore targets is nice, but the doubling of Molt's duration really didn't accomplish much; Saryn is still incredibly energy intensive, and her survivability is still "meh" compared to what she brings in support. Happy to see some bug fixes though.

 

I enjoy the complexity that has been added to Saryn, but the complexity required to accomplish similar results that other frames can do in one button-push isn't quite worth it. She needs more utility or survivability in order to justify the amount of energy and effort she requires.

Edited November 10, 2015 by GideonG

[mcryseria]

I'd say have venom and miasma do ticks based off of precentages instead of damage. That way the S#&$ters get what they want, which is saryn not being able to "kill steal", while people that actually played saryn still get a frame that can not be completely terrible all of the time.

 

I like your idea, it would really scale well even in higher levels while avoiding the complaints about her in the first place. Hopefully though, DE can read some of these feedbacks because right now they're just experimenting with no real progress being delivered.

[SickoSike]

Amazing how DE still does not understand or just does not want to comprehend what advice people are giving here to help Sayrn out, if DE even reads this thread anymore I'm going to point out the issues just as anyone in this thread would agree on.

1. Survivability- if you make Sayrn be a frame that spreads poison and spores through melee and make her be a melee frame at least give her some sort of survivability without need of any augments or increase molt's HP/give her the snow-globe treatment frost got with his re-work.

2. Energy cost- You guys tried to put more synergy by letting us get energy back when we spread spores, then use toxic lash to get some of our energy back, I'm pretty sure most would like to see some sort of efficiency/reward be paid out when we do our combos with Sayrn. Don't give us forced play style content please give versatility to Sayrn, make her more unique out of the meleeframes we already have, yet perform better than her.

3. Give her more Base HP rather than nerf for no absolute reason, if you're going to focus on making her more of a meleeframe I highly suggest and recommend you guys give her some sort of buff for being able to not only take bullets to face, but also in the back as well.

[Educated_Beast]

OK guys, I have certainly learned something in this thread and will quote myself here for the sake of convenience: 

 

Very interesting. I'm not surprised by the smart phone data, I am by PC games. It just doesn't match the personal experiences of anyone I know. But hey, I can admit to being wrong and learning something new..

 

Thanks to all the guys (and 50% girls) to help me understand my misplaced anger at the ugly Saryn skin is due to my insecurity and machismo.  I can now live a safe and happy life as a rehabilitated Tenno.  :)

 

Seriously though, some of you guys need a sense of humor.  Its ok to laugh at yourself like this guy here (and me ^^^):

 

Thanks for clearing up the doubt about my sexuality, user_Educated_Beast.

 

I really don't have anything else to add but feel free to hate on me.  Especially you thick-beard hating women out there that I only now realized existed in the gaming community. 

 

:)

 

[TheBrsrkr]

I don't suppose any of you actually thought past the knee jerk reactions, huh? It's now the 4th day since the rework was released. WORKING day, that is. We've already had 2 patches before the standard patch day. Somehow, you want the developers to go through 100 pages of comments, pick out the whiny useless ones, then go through the 30 or so pages of actual feedback, pick out the most feasible ones, discuss them internally, apply the numbers, test it out and release it while doing whatever else there is to be done with U18 looming overhead and the player base breathing down their neck every second. All while you people throw thinly veiled insults and call them incompetent because you don't get exactly what you want the minute you want it.

If I worked for DE, would I want to read this thread? Would I want to slog through literal hundreds of comments telling me that I suck at my job because your ideas weren't implemented immediately? Having to dig through mountains of filth to find a gem of what you actually want? Hell no. It's a thankless job, and it only gets harder as time passes. But instead of actually acknowledging that everything isn't equally easy to change and some things take much, much longer than others to implement, we'll just piss and moan about how something incredibly easy by coding standards got implemented before we raise literally half the stats of a frame while thinking of the consequences and develop alternate mechanics and functions.

[Xekrin]

Over 100 pages of replies, so I don't really expect mine to be read or considered but here goes.

 

Suggestions on Saryn's Powers.

 

Spores

 

    Remove the popping to spread mechanism.  It is a neat idea on paper, but I feel it is using Banshee's sonar as a 

    template (create a 'weak spot' and shoot it).  Instead make it an Area of effect (like Nyx's chaos, refreshable but

    only on those with less than the maximum spores)  Each spoor explodes on its own within minimum of 2 seconds

    starting at 5 seconds or so and reduced with a mod (strength maybe, the more potent the spore's virality the faster it

    pops.  Each spore exploding does whatever it does now.  But on every infected enemy at the same time.

 

Molt

 

   Needs scaleable health, it just does not last very long at higher levels.  I would say make it totally invulnerable and 

    a manual detonation or when the timer runs out.  It is supposed to have more versatility than Loki's decoy and

    considering manual placement is required (can't far range place like decoy) it needs better survivability.

 

Toxic Lash

 

    Again, sounds great on paper, but the demand to use it as a constant source of a) popping spores to spread them

   (primarily without "aiming" at them) and to regain energy without any other power supporting it as a melee ability,

    it just does not fit.  A warframe's abilities should be cohesive, mostly melee, mostly support mostly range casting,

    and so on.  

 

    The suggestion would be make it a single target ranged ability that does what it does now, more or less, let's say

    max range 20 meters (after range mods), it pops spores (with addictional damage based on melee weapon (or can

    remove the melee part)) randomly on anyone infected within a certain range surrounding the target (not based on 

    range from saryn, the target itself radially).

 

Misama

 

    This one I haven't really thought out so this is just spur of the moment.  The explosion is as it is now, except

    range is increased based on infected enemies.  Like a chain reaction (or think of it as a contagion zone) each

    infected enemy increases the range around that target by 5 meters or thereabouts.  Damage is multiplied by

    procs on the targets and the amount of remaining spores (either less spores equal more damage or the reverse)\

    whichever sounds more interesting.

 

 

Synergy of powers

 

    Spore isn't dependent on additional attacks for damage, one cast infects the whole range, with additional casts

    infecting/reinfecting new targets in that range.  Either wait for them to explode on their own (while finding cover)\

    or use Toxic lash/miasma to help in detonation.

 

    Molt is more versatile and doesn't require the danger or running into a hoard just to remake because the first one

    "died" too quickly.

 

    Toxic lash does ranged damage (eliminating the melee component (she doesn't have the speed, armour or health needed of a melee frame) all on its own, singularly but has exponentally higher damage when combined with spore (albeit randomly)  Energy return from spores exploded will be multiplied by each spore randomly chosen on multiple

targets and will return 20+ energy at once per strike rather than 2 and be a bit less dangerous not being melee, though still requiring close range.

 

    Miasma will require less setup and feel less like it takes forever to do so,  cast spores, cast miasma and depending

    on number of spores does that much damage, procs on the target can be applied from various sources already

    so that works out, especially against fewer/larger targets.  Doesn't depend on two abilities prior to be used just to

    be nearly as good.  Doesn't allow for it to be the only power that is used to do damage.

 

 

those are my ideas in a nutshell, hope someone reads/enjoys this.  Thanks

Edited November 10, 2015 by Xekrin

[ZHeart]

Her spore should spread to others near by if you just tag one kinda like if they are a certian range they should also get the spores with out having to always tag or kill becasue some times i find my self running away before i can kill them to spread as she gets downed pretty quick.

[Colonel_Ignes]

I don't suppose any of you actually thought past the knee jerk reactions, huh? It's now the 4th day since the rework was released. WORKING day, that is. We've already had 2 patches before the standard patch day. Somehow, you want the developers to go through 100 pages of comments, pick out the whiny useless ones, then go through the 30 or so pages of actual feedback, pick out the most feasible ones, discuss them internally, apply the numbers, test it out and release it while doing whatever else there is to be done with U18 looming overhead and the player base breathing down their neck every second. All while you people throw thinly veiled insults and call them incompetent because you don't get exactly what you want the minute you want it.

If I worked for DE, would I want to read this thread? Would I want to slog through literal hundreds of comments telling me that I suck at my job because your ideas weren't implemented immediately? Having to dig through mountains of filth to find a gem of what you actually want? Hell no. It's a thankless job, and it only gets harder as time passes. But instead of actually acknowledging that everything isn't equally easy to change and some things take much, much longer than others to implement, we'll just piss and moan about how something incredibly easy by coding standards got implemented before we raise literally half the stats of a frame while thinking of the consequences and develop alternate mechanics and functions.

 

Well said

 

 

Indeed

 

Also, well said.

[tnccs215]

not such an educated beast.

Also, matching taste for certain aesthetics with sexuality is kinda something from the last century. Nothing crosses the line, because there is no line to cross. 

Also, me straight, me like the new skin. And I do it so you don't start throwing stuff. Using my sexuality as a proof of the falsity of your assertion.

 

 

 

this is sooo getting locked

Edited November 10, 2015 by tnccs215

[Gelkor]

Well, I've had the most success with reds/greens for a nice tropical-ish venomous look and pale pinks and purples that I normally use for Saryn mixed up for the different color slots. It reduces it a bit, but she still looks like she's got a weird insect carapace look going on from the PBR shine. Sure, insectoid exoskeleton doesn't really look out of place on Saryn, but it just looks bad on floppy petals in my opinion. 

 

Head? Fine. Torso? Fine. 

 

On the shoulder and skirt petals? Not so much. :\ 

 

It just bothers me that it limits my palette options if I want to avoid the metallic look being thrown in my face. 

 

I must be doing it wrong, because I can't get it to not look metallic - which I don't mind, but it's not what you'd expect from a flower theme. My main gripe is that the energy color covers so much of the frame, because colors that look good on the frame tend not to look so good for Saryn's power visual effects.

 

I guess it's an issue of definition, now that I think about it I do see the metallic, but I always considered it organic because it relays an insect-like carapace texture to me, as opposed to an inorganic metal like you'll see on the bits on some frames. Personally I like the carapace-like texture, but I can see wanting something softer.

[Axalar]

Almost there. The new mechanic to regenerate energy with toxic lash was a good addition, but still, at high level content it is hard to make any use of it and stay alive at the same time.

 

Saryn needs something to keep her alive so she can use toxic lash effectively. Molt did not need a duration buff, it needs to be more durable, so it works as a good distraction and stay alive long enough so the augment does it's job. A good way to make this is to make it behave like snow globe. One more thing, if you could make it so when molt is cast, homing attacks like bombards' and hellions' rockets go after the molt and not Saryn would be really cool.

 

Also miasma feels a bit let aside. Yes if you use the combo it does a lot of damage, but there is nothing more to it, no reason to use it on it's own. Without the combo it deals low damage, costs a lot of energy and has a short range. It could make use of more range and some better crowd control to help saryn stay alive. And/or force a corrosive proc to help handle highly armored targets. If none of this is ever going to be made at least reduce its energy cost to somewhere around 50~75 energy.

 

And again, please increase her base health back to 150.

[Nihuase]

Saryn got 1 role in this game Damage dealer! So she needs a built without using all 4 parameters! Look at Ash in Defence mode - he doesn't need duration at all! If u need stealthy Ash u wil just increase your duration and decrease radius! It is easy to just switch mods and play in two different styles! BUT SARYN DOESN'T HAVE ANOTHER PLAYSTYLE! Now it is only one playstyle for your masterpiece - dying mellee nothing! I can reduse my radius for 44% and increase my strength, duration and effeciency without using all mods. But she dies in mellee and we don't want to play this way. For Spore Molt and Miasma we need strength, duration, radius and power effeciency. <- Let's find out - who the owner of this bright thought? Let's see how this man gonna put mods for super damage in this warframe now.

 

I am done with this thread - there are too many good ideas, but it is too hard to read them and implement.

 

AND DO SOMETHING WITH Fleeting Expertise IT IS USELESS FOR YOUR "ALL WARFRAMES MUST HAVE DURATION" STRATEGY.

[GhostLacuna]

I don't suppose any of you actually thought past the knee jerk reactions, huh? It's now the 4th day since the rework was released. WORKING day, that is. We've already had 2 patches before the standard patch day. Somehow, you want the developers to go through 100 pages of comments, pick out the whiny useless ones, then go through the 30 or so pages of actual feedback, pick out the most feasible ones, discuss them internally, apply the numbers, test it out and release it while doing whatever else there is to be done with U18 looming overhead and the player base breathing down their neck every second. All while you people throw thinly veiled insults and call them incompetent because you don't get exactly what you want the minute you want it.

If I worked for DE, would I want to read this thread? Would I want to slog through literal hundreds of comments telling me that I suck at my job because your ideas weren't implemented immediately? Having to dig through mountains of filth to find a gem of what you actually want? Hell no. It's a thankless job, and it only gets harder as time passes. But instead of actually acknowledging that everything isn't equally easy to change and some things take much, much longer than others to implement, we'll just piss and moan about how something incredibly easy by coding standards got implemented before we raise literally half the stats of a frame while thinking of the consequences and develop alternate mechanics and functions.

 

Your right they have been working fast.  Any developer has to face the wrath of the community the second they make changes. But DE are not novice developers they been doing this for years. They will filter though this thread and others and find the suggestions they think are great and then see how they can make it fit to their own version of what warframe is.

 

As for the changes in themselves. Well personally i would not mind if toxic lash where removed from the game but that is my opinion. For others its the best things since sliced bread. 

 

De cant please everyone they have to make compromises. I for one can take toxic lash if it means they will give her the attention she deserves. 

 

So far they have.

 

I dont care if it takes 4 passes or 20 as long as they really test it out not only on paper but in actual gameplay.

 

many things looks great on paper but falls flat when tested in a live environment.

 

I played games and still play where characters have had so many reworks nothing remain of the old character not even the name. I also waited years for reworks to actually come before so waiting for them to complete the rework of saryn wont be a problem.

 

Still the duration change on molt was quite a strange one as far as changes go. I wonder how they came to  the conclusion that that was needed.

[Machayna]

AND DO SOMETHING WITH Fleeting Expertise IT IS USELESS FOR YOUR "ALL WARFRAMES MUST HAVE DURATION" STRATEGY.

That would be really nice.  I don't have primed continuity so I'm having to use two duration mods to recover from fleeting or take a hit to range which you need as well.

[VoidNomade]

I don't suppose any of you actually thought past the knee jerk reactions, huh? It's now the 4th day since the rework was released. WORKING day, that is. We've already had 2 patches before the standard patch day. Somehow, you want the developers to go through 100 pages of comments, pick out the whiny useless ones, then go through the 30 or so pages of actual feedback, pick out the most feasible ones, discuss them internally, apply the numbers, test it out and release it while doing whatever else there is to be done with U18 looming overhead and the player base breathing down their neck every second. All while you people throw thinly veiled insults and call them incompetent because you don't get exactly what you want the minute you want it.

If I worked for DE, would I want to read this thread? Would I want to slog through literal hundreds of comments telling me that I suck at my job because your ideas weren't implemented immediately? Having to dig through mountains of filth to find a gem of what you actually want? Hell no. It's a thankless job, and it only gets harder as time passes. But instead of actually acknowledging that everything isn't equally easy to change and some things take much, much longer than others to implement, we'll just piss and moan about how something incredibly easy by coding standards got implemented before we raise literally half the stats of a frame while thinking of the consequences and develop alternate mechanics and functions.

 

Well said.

 

Though i still don´t understand the logic behind the mold +duration change.^^

[bubbabenali]

I hit post too fast, it has been edited

Oh, I have to revoke my indeed - at least for your Spore idea.

Because Spore is an awesome skill now. Best for Defense missions as you even have time to prepare before every wave with an spore infested molt.

With max range and a concealed explosive Hikou one spore can easly spread over the whole map - have a Nova and a well place Ember in the team and everything blows apart.

 

Toxic Lash will ever be one of my least used skills in the game at least as long it has no real DR or works with thrown melee.

As for Miasma - well in a team without an Ember or an Equinox - clean up yourself then.

 

 

 

Edit: Upps forgot one word (time) - complete different meaning in second sentence as intended.

Edited November 10, 2015 by bubbabenali

[bubbabenali]

Well said.

 

Though i still don´t understand the logic behind the mold +duration change.^^

Don't use it as a decoy, use it as a totem before a defense wave starts and put some spores onto it and use it to reactivate your viral chain, if a damage frame broke the old chain.

But yeah a HP/Amor buff would make it more relayable for non infested missions.

[DelialFallen]

Don't use it as a decoy, use it as a totem before a defense wave starts and put some spores onto it and use it to reactivate your viral chain, if a damage frame broke the old chain.

But yeah a HP/Amor buff would make it more relayable for non infested missions.

 

It really seems there is a consensus that Molt does need some sort of buff to its durability (not Duration) to be truly useful in all areas of the game.  It should have been a priority in their design and bug fixing revisions, seeing as how much of Saryn's effectiveness is tied to that single ability.

 

Edit: typography

Edited November 10, 2015 by DelialFallen

[TheBrsrkr]

Well said.

Though i still don´t understand the logic behind the mold +duration change.^^

Well, the thing is I don't use Molt to take hits. If you put it behind some cover, enemies will shoot at it anyway, and if you're using Toxic Lash (I'm a melee player, it doesn't bother me) they're still in Spore range mostly. It's more a substitute than a Decoy. Twice the duration actually helps me quite a lot. Plus you have more time to chain it with Miasma if that tickles your peach.

A change I'd really like to see is Miasma causing enemies with multiple Toxin Procs exploding like enemies that die with Avalanche. Right now all the stacking with Toxic Lash goes to waste if you use Miasma.

[DelialFallen]

A bit more feedback since the hotfixes: I find that the pause between each cast of Spores to set up your Molt and then spread a few on enemies by casting at them is a bit too slow since the apparent implementation of a half second delay between casts.  Certainly, it's not much of a problem in theory, but in practice and given the fast pace of the game and how quickly Molt dies to enemy fire, I believe reverting the cast speed to be instant as before would prove to be helpful in maximizing Saryn's toolkit.  As it stands, any delay in setting things up minimizes potential and, really, there is very little space on Saryn's builds to insert a Natural Talent in there as well (I'm already wishing there more more slots to fit everything in).

[Rollerlane]

Currently her combo is 2-1-2-4 which blows a lot of energy. I would like it to be changed so if she casts Spore on her Molt, her second cast of Molt wont take any energy and will just detonate the Molt instead of making a new one and costing her energy.

[Jaypalm]

Or you could use your melee and change your combo to 3-1-4. Saves 50 (base) energy. Her combos aren't so black and white.

Any status weapon that can proc many enemies quickly, like Amprex, works great too.

[Rollerlane]

Or you could use your melee and change your combo to 3-1-4. Saves 50 (base) energy. Her combos aren't so black and white.

Any status weapon that can proc many enemies quickly, like Amprex, works great too.

tru, i would still like to see this change added just for people that maybe dont like using melee, and it wouldnt make using 2-1-2-4 better than 3-1-4 either so theres no worry in them making her 3 useless again

Edited November 11, 2015 by Rollerlane

[hukurokuju5]

roller just 2 1 4. miasma pops molt before it deals damage

[iSmallfry]

All in all, I really like the changes to Saryn.

I see her as a melee frame that specializes in "in&out" or "hit&run"-style combat, which is a lot of fun.

(To those claiming that she was not designed as a melee frame, I'd argue that her melee buff, as well as the short base ranges of 10-16m on her abilities, were clearly made with close-quarter combat in mind.)

 

Some random footage, featuring me trying to utilize said "hit&run" playstyle:

 

 

Yes,I did screw up at some point and got knocked down.Then again,knockdowns wouldn't be much of a deal if you were to enable Saryn's Exilus Slot and put Handspring in.

Anyway, you should get an idea of what i was talking about when I said "in&out"/"hit&run".

 

Things to note:

 

Molt will give your Miasma an additional damage bonus, based off its missing HP (up to another 100%, I believe).

 

Attacks blocked with your melee weapon,that damage your shields, will trigger Rage. Also, Energy gained through Rage,whie blocking, is based off the pre-mitigated damage (e.g. let's say your block negates 70% of the incoming damage, Rage will convert 40% of the initial damage value, rather than the 30% you actually take, into energy.)

This makes a Rage build extremely efficient on Saryn.A melee with a 85% block ratio paired with the block buff on Toxic Lash enables you to spam non-stop without having to let enemies beat you half to death (as seen in the footage.Started out with 50 energy and still spammed the S#&$ out of those 20 Heavy Gunners).

 

You can use Saryn's 1st,2nd and 3rd ability while blocking.

 

Detonated Spores will transfer ALL Toxin procs, so melee-ing with Toxic Lash to stack Toxin procs whenever you can, will increase your overall damage by quite a bit.

 

Changes I would love to see:

 

My main concern with Saryn right now, is her survivability.Yes, you can block enough damage to stay alive, especially with Toxic Lash.Though, that's only true for your front.You're way too vulnerable from all other sides.1 shot to the back from a nullifier, for example, or any other enemy type with a high lvl and you're dead.Then there're Bombards.Their rockets render your block useless,due to the AoE damage.Normally, I'd be totally fine with those circumstances, but in Saryn's case, she's a melee frame and blocking is her main survivability tool.Give her the ability block damage from all directions, when Toxic Lash is active.That should include AoE damage,as well.

 

Damagewise, I think she's in a good spot. While the numbers don't appear to be that high,they're absolutely lethal in combination with the Viral procs.I think the reason many people consider her damage garbage, is due to her damage falling off immensely when faced with armored targets.So, some kind of armor shredding on Miasma would be pretty neat.

Edited November 11, 2015 by iSmallfry