Aksomati, Holy....

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Other than the fact that a lot of these ignore the concept of limited ammo entirely, also remember that crit falls-off much more quickly than true damage at higher level where armor begins to scale very quickly. 

 

Even so, I'll be trying out the Aksomati again and see how they fair with my shiny new primed mod just to see how they fair. 

Wait, what?

Crits fall off at the same rate, if not a bit slower than raw damage.

Crits are just a multiplier on top of raw damage, and headshot crits deal another x4 damage on top of the multiplier, instead of flat x2 like raw damage.

 

And heck, if anyone is seriously thinking about lasting more than 2 rotations, they will use 4x CPs.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Mofixil

[Autongnosis]

Uh, actually there is no difference between crit damage fall off and base damage fall off, on the contrary, crits tend to scale better because of the headshot multiplier, where base damage guns can at best double their damage when headshotting, while crit based guns get a 4 times multiplier when critting on weakspots.

 

 

That said, i do agree that those builds are pure paper DPS and nothing more, on top of the fact that the Boltor build is just plain meh, once you slot the first three elementals (or two elementals and piercing caliber) you're better off stacking firerate, the best damage wise being vile acceleration and shred, while speed trigger and shred gives a more sustainable build with less burst potential though.

 

Without punchthrough mods these numbers mean nothing at all, none of those guns are sniper guns, and as such not having punchthrough means way less overall damage dealt in practice, despite the paper numbers looking better. You're not going off picking priority targets with neither the BoltorP nor the AkSomati, and as such not having punchthrough is a no-go.

 

More realistic builds would be something like these, assuming you'll go mostly void

BoltorP: Serration, Heavy Caliber, Split Chamber, 3 elements/2 elements+Piercing Caliber, Vile Acceleration/Speed Trigger, Shred

Aksomati: Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent, 2 elements, Primed Pistol Gambit, Primed Target Cracker, Seeker

 

Dependin on your elements the numbers for those are:

- Boltor P w/ VA and PC, burst 38'869 sustain 20'675

- Boltor P w/ ST and 3rd 90% elemental 33'168 sustain 18'845

- Aksomati w/ 1 elemental and Primed Heated Chargé burst 46'286 sustain 33'061

- Aksomati w/ 2 normal elementals burst 36'507 sustain 26'077

 

The difference here is that the Boltor has respectively 27.27s and 31.58s of firing autonomy versus the Aksomati's 14s not counting reloads.

 

 

The point of all this is that first, Aksomati do not do anywhere near double the damage of a BoltorP, even considering crit headshots (due to their frankly terrible accuracy), and while they do much higher damage in theory, they can achieve it only when you can usePrimed Heated Chargé, while the Boltor Prime can actually do MORE burst damage with the VA+PC build (you can use radiation as your elemental combo to have a good punch on both Ferrite and Alloy armour) than the PHC aksomati build (which works only against Alloy basically since the only decent combo you get out of Fire is Radiation, and a Radiation only build is absolutely terrible for Void gameplay.

 

Bottom line is: it's not that easy to compare guns.

[TotallyLagging]

Other than the fact that a lot of these ignore the concept of limited ammo entirely, also remember that crit falls-off much more quickly than true damage at higher level where armor begins to scale very quickly. 

 

Even so, I'll be trying out the Aksomati again and see how they fair with my shiny new primed mod just to see how they fair. 

Crit-viable weapons last a lot longer than pure damage weapons if you hit headshots.

 

The crit multiplier that you get with crit headshots is insane.

[enJohneering]

Wait, what?

Crits fall off at the same rate, if not a bit slower than raw damage.

Crits are just a multiplier on top of raw damage, and headshot crits deal another x4 damage on top of the multiplier, instead of flat x2 like raw damage.

 

And heck, if anyone is seriously thinking about lasting more than 2 rotations, they will use 4x CPs.

 

Ok ok, I wasn't accounting for headshots, which unless you are particularly dedicated to hitting them, will not be the majority of shots you take. If you watch videos of players going for a long time into high levels - some take headshots, some don't. It's just a speed vs. accuracy trade-off. I tend to skip them as I can't be bothered to aim and instead use something I am good at (parkour) to dive in close and use a shotgun anyway. Ok next...

 

Since armor applies BEFORE the crit multiplier is calculated

 

 

it will fall-off much sooner than true damage. If you like weapons like the Soma P, you'll notice the your damage suddenly drops to near 0 at a certain point. Now of course 4xCP negates this entirely, but I go to 40min plus all the time carrying pug teams which almost NEVER have CP. So just keep that in mind. 

 

Maybe most good players are efficient headshot snipers that never solo and run 4xCP, but if you're not, keep these facts in mind if you want to take on scaling adversaries with crit-based weapons. 

Edited November 10, 2015 by JoeLorodeath

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Since armor applies BEFORE the crit multiplier is calculated

It changes nothing because e.g. 20dmg*3x crit*(1/3) damage reduction is the same as 20*(1/3)*3.

Multiplication is commutative, you know?

 

I've went to Simulacrum to see damage falloff vs lv20 and lv100 Hvy Gunner. Checked Sybaris and Telos Akbolto.

lv100

Sybaris: 445 (HS 1779)

Akbolto: 95 (HS 189)

lv20

Sybaris: 506 [~2226] (HS 8912), bodyshots refuse to crit.

Akbolto: 477 (HS 955)

 

Or, pretty much 1/4th in both cases.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Mofixil

[Autongnosis]

Uhm. You do know that being a multiplier the order in which it gets applied has absolutely no effect right?

Take a base damage weapon dealing 120 slash damage and 240 corrosive (assuming no crits) damage, versus a crit weapon with 20% crit chance and 2.0x crit dmg which deals 100 slash and 200 corrosive. Normalised damage taking the crits into account brings bot weapons at the same damage (120 slash 240 corrosive).

Assume we're against a level 40odd gunner with 85% DR from his 1700 Ferrite armour.

The effective multiplier for slash is 0.14135

For Corrosive it's 0.72414

(calculated with the damage formula ((1+AM)*(1+FM))/(1+(EA*(1-AM))/300)

The multiplier that takes into account crit chance and damage is:

0.8+0.2*2=1.2

The result of (100*0.14135)*1.2 and of (100*1.2)*0.14135 does not change, and is around 17 dmg.

Same for corrosive, (200*0.72414)*1.2 is the same as (200*1.2)*0.72414 and gives around 177 damage.

And wanna know what 120 slash and 240 corrosive do against that armour? That's the base damage gun btw.

They do the exact same damage. Around 17 and around 177.

[enJohneering]

*sigh* I"m sorry I don't have time for a more comprehensive response, but I'll give you my best information and hope you do further research in-game and on paper if you disagree. If you're going to use things like AM or EM in your calculations, it would also be nice to explain exactly what those number are, because while I can guess from the way you use them, it's hard to be certain. 

 

I'm also not sure where you got your damage formula (as far as I know DE has never released one, so it has been approximated through a lot of testing by different people who have gotten different results), so I may be wrong but armor is actually calculated as a addition operation. If I remember right it's roughly...

 

Damage - Enemy Scale % + Crit/Channel damage (see the last video I linked)

 

where the crit channel damage is calculated on the multiplier of what is left from (damage - %) which is entirely different than the way your on paper numbers were calculated. I could be wrong but if you want to watch the video, it involved more testing than I'm willing to do right now, and it agrees with these assumptions. 

 

It changes nothing because e.g. 20dmg*3x crit*(1/3) damage reduction is the same as 20*(1/3)*3.

Multiplication is commutative, you know?

 

I've went to Simulacrum to see damage falloff vs lv20 and lv100 Hvy Gunner. Checked Sybaris and Telos Akbolto.

lv100

Sybaris: 445 (HS 1779)

Akbolto: 95 (HS 189)

lv20

Sybaris: 506 [~2226] (HS 8912), bodyshots refuse to crit.

Akbolto: 477 (HS 955)

 

Or, pretty much 1/4th in both cases.

 

The reason your bodyshots refused to crit is because that yellow tag appears if the number exceeds a threshold above normal damage if I am correct. Maybe I'm wrong, but it does explain a lot of why crits even with modest multipliers are always larger than non-crits even as the base damage of each shot can vary quite a bit. If crit was falling off sooner against armor as I predicted, then that would explain why you couldn't get a bodyshot crit regularly, and the headshot numbers were much lower than expected against the lvl 100s if you go off the lvl 20 results. So, thanks for that testing as I've been too busy to test this myself yet. Maybe I will do some testing of my own and try to really flesh out these results with a more comparable set of weapons. 

 

I hope this helps, but keep in mind damage formulas are often not as simple as you think, and experience can go a long way to understanding these numbers. I've used both Soma (which has over 75% crit with my build) and boltor and can say they don't react the same way once enemies scale enough (I'm talking often over lvl 100). 

Edited November 11, 2015 by JoeLorodeath

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

You forgot to mention that it runs out of ammo faster than lightning strikes. It's fun to play though. I'll give you that.

[Autongnosis]

You're right sorry i skipped one part of my post .-. Sigh, i must be getting old.

AM is the multiplier for armour for the element. FM is the multiplier for flesh. EA is the effective armour, or the total amour of the target minus eventual debuffs.

The formula is the one taken from the Wiki, then checked through in-game testing at level ranges from 10 to around 130. The practical results were consistent throughout the testing.

Basically if you want to get technical. You can assume "raw damage" as the pure untyped number representing total damage before flesh and armour type multipliers an armour reduction take effect, "reduction ciefficient" as a decimal number resulting from the interaction between the multipliers as of damage 2.0 and the enemy flesh and amour types.

The formula for critical damage at that point becomes:

- (raw damage*reduction coefficient)*critical multiplier

If no crit is assumed you simply multiply raw damage for the reduction coefficient.

You can also see that in-game the crits stay consistent no matter the multiplier. Also, if you look at his post is the lvl 20 gunner that refused to get a bodyshot crit. If you were right we'd have that on the lvl 100 gunner instead.

For reference gunners have around 75% at level 22 and around 95% at level 80-something, while to get to 99% you get to go up to level 210-something. Considering levels used were 20 and 100 (who take respectively slightly more than 25% and slightly less than 5% damae after armour reduction) it's not surprising the level 20 gunner is taking about 5x the damage of the level 100 gunner.

The fact is, crits from my experience tend to be treated exactly like every other type of damage save for two instances:

- object type health nullifies critical damage

- weakspot crits get an additional 2.0x multiplier on top of the weakpoint multiplier

Other than that, crit damage is just a multiplier of true (or base) damage, and from what i've seen in-game its behaviour is predictable according to this model (assuming an IPS gun), with these nomenclature notes:

- base damage is the arsenal UI damage before mods

- base damage mods multiplier is the decimal form of the additive % base damage mods give (so Serration is 1.65, HCal is 1.65, Hosnet Strike is 2.2 etc), obviously you need to add the values if more than on damage mod is slotted (so Serration+HCal is 3.3, and PressureP+SpoiledS is 2.2 etc)

- elemental multiplier is the decimal form of the % elemental damage mods give. A single 90% element is 0.9, a combo element done with 2 90% mods is 1.8, etc.

- crit damage bonus mods is the decimal form of the % bonus to crit damage mods give (so Vital Sense is 1.2, PTarget Cracker is 1.1,Ravage is 0.6 etc)

Weighting of the base damage:

- base Impact damage*(1+base damage mods multiplier)*((1+AM)*(1+FM)/(1+(EA*(1-AM))/300))

- base Slash damage*(1+base damage mods multiplier)*((1+AM)*(1+FM)/(1+(EA*(1-AM))/300))

- base Puncture damage*(1+base damage mods multiplier)*((1+AM)*(1+FM)/(1+(EA*(1-AM))/300))

Weighting of the elemental damage:

- total base damage*(1+base damage multiplier)*elemental multiplier*((1+AM)*(1+FM)/(1+(EA*(1-AM))/300))

Repeated for every element the gun has.

Now, to get the actual damage you add all of these together. If you want to see the predicted crit damage you then multiply the result of the sum by (base crit multiplier)*(1+crit damage bonus mods).

If you try this you'll see how the predicted values are consistent with the in-game values for both base damage guns and crit based guns :)

[hukurokuju5]

^ F yeah maths

[Pro3Display]

sry, what's burst damage means here?

[Kthal]

sry, what's burst damage means here?

 

Burst damage is the highest rate of damage a weapon will put out while firing. It does not factor in reload times. Warframe-Builder will factor in charge times on some weapons.

 

Sustained damage is the damage output over an extended period of time, including reloads and charging times.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

sry, what's burst damage means here?

Burst damage is basically damage per shot*firerate (or in calculations, damage per mag/time to empty the mag, which results in (damage per shot*magsize)/(magsize/firerate) formula), sustained DPS accounts for reload times in total time required to deal that damage, equaling damage per mag/time spent shooting+reload time.

 

Sustained DPS might be equal to burstDPS*(reload/(time spent shooting+reload)), but that's just overcomplicating stuff.

 

Anyway, formulas are something like this:

Burst DPS

(damage per shot*magsize)/(magsize/firerate)

Sustained DPS

(damage per shot*magsize)/((magsize/firerate+)reload time)

Edited November 11, 2015 by Mofixil

[YasaiTsume]

Fun fact : Primed Target Cracker makes this weapon fire 1.2k crits per individual bullet.

[S0V3REiGN]

It's double the DPS because you don't have the right build for the Boltor Prime. All maxed: Split Chamber, Serration, Heavy Caliber, Vile Acceleration, 3 x 90% elemental mods, Piercing Caliber. Now tell me if it's double the DPS. btw, good luck on the ammo economy and kick back on those aksomati build.

[-N7-Leonhart]

It's double the DPS because you don't have the right build for the Boltor Prime. All maxed: Split Chamber, Serration, Heavy Caliber, Vile Acceleration, 3 x 90% elemental mods, Piercing Caliber. Now tell me if it's double the DPS. btw, good luck on the ammo economy and kick back on those aksomati build.

 

In all the builds, everything is maxed, I don't deal with anything less.

 

As for the ammo economy, I have Primed Ammo Mutation ready on AkSomati when I want to use them as the primary weapon in a mission and the lead will never end. Boltor P needs one ammo sustenance means sooner or later as well, so I don't consider ammo a factor when you compare weapons. Also, one single mod changed won't compensate for over 2x DPS difference and that doesn't even factor in the massive critical headshots the AkSomati pulls.

[S0V3REiGN]

I won't deny the headshot multipliers, that goes without saying.

Also, one single mod changed won't compensate for over 2x DPS difference

You sure about that? You don't think replacing malignant for vile acceleration won't change the burst DPS?

[-N7-Leonhart]

You sure about that? You don't think replacing malignant for vile acceleration won't change the burst DPS?

 

No, I meant Primed Ammo Mutation on AkSomati in place of something else. If I wanted to flaunt the huge DPS without any substance I would have used Gunslinger or Anemic Agility on AkSomati as well. The builds I posted are what you can actually use, not just for numbers sake.

[enJohneering]

 

You're right sorry i skipped one part of my post .-. Sigh, i must be getting old.

 

{Removed stuff that seemed even more researched than my own damage calculations}

If you try this you'll see how the predicted values are consistent with the in-game values for both base damage guns and crit based guns :)

 

Ahh, well I guess I learned something today, thank you for being so civil about it. I'll probably do some of my own testing just to convince myself, but your numbers seem good. I still wonder if I"m right about what triggers a yellow number to be generated, but that's just a guess I suppose so I'm sure better information is out there somewhere. 

[Necrius]

Then I should craft them and not keep my akstiletto...

[Autongnosis]

Then I should craft them and not keep my akstiletto...

Well, they are very different. I believe Aksomati deals more damage, but Aksiletto is way more accurate and works wonders for status... To be honest what i would do if you like Akstiletto is to get another one done to use to make Aksomati and keep your own one.

[alergiclaprosti]

You've done all your computations, and came to the conclusion:

 

"Why do we need primary weapons?!"

 

Now look at the ammo consumption.

 

More, wait for the incoming multishot balance.

 

q e d

 

 

Edited November 12, 2015 by alergiclaprosti

[-N7-Leonhart]

All I see everywhere is ammo consumption.... Am I the only one that likes the ammo intensive weapons the most?

 

No.1 Kohm+90% fire rate: the king. Followed by Amprex, Soma + Shred, Braton P + Vile Acc, Boar P, not to mention AkSomati, all very good stuff. In fact, usually weapons that spend the ammo very fast have huge DPS. You just have to have at least one way to compensate for it. When I use rifles, I usually use Rifle Scavenger aura, which is the mutation equivalent when it comes to rifles. If I use shotguns or pistols, Ammo Mutation works best.

.......Or if I have 50 bps fire rate I can even use both and pick up like 300 ammo in 2 seconds :P

[JuanDeages]

Well, they are very different. I believe Aksomati deals more damage, but Aksiletto is way more accurate and works wonders for status... To be honest what i would do if you like Akstiletto is to get another one done to use to make Aksomati and keep your own one.

 

The Akstiletto does far too little damage for its accuracy or status to be terribly meaningful. The Aksomati's damage towers over it, and its accuracy isn't nearly as bad as people complain about. Going full tilt on a machine pistol at anything less than point blank is going to yield poor results. Tap and burst at range, get in close if you want to hose something down. It trucks down corrupted bombards and nullifiers pretty well.

[Tatersail]

Aksomati has 210 ammo and a 20 fire rate

you can shoot it for 10 seconds

 

 

Enjoy that DPS while it lasts, while your stood on ammo plates waiting for ticks, the n00by MR2 rhino is still shooting his 1000 ammo boltor prime, with three less prime mods.

 

 

Your also comparing 2 different builds, you can get boltor prime up to 44k bursts damage, don't use bad warframe builder saved builds...   anyone using a puncture mod should be shot, but for the sake of this POINTLESS THEORYCRAFT pissing match....

44k deeps boltor... http://goo.gl/qZMy1h

 

 

 

Boltor Prime is easily in the top 20 best weapons, and i would recommend it to any MR2 player, as a way to make them quit warfarm when they find out no other weapon around there level is worth using....

Edited November 14, 2015 by Tatersail