New Quest: The Second Dream [U18 Megathread/spoilers]

[GreenPandaWarrior]

When you carried your Tenno, did anyone else seem to be unable to die? I mean my shield was at 0 and my HP was at 2. I should have died, don't you think?

[AlphaAquilae]

Kara and myself just played it and we were both wow. 

 

We totally called it.

 

He's been reading the snippets of lore up to 18 and pretty much went (before 18 was released) 

 

"Frames are linked to the Tenno. The tenno are the kids on the ship... and the Orokin are racist/eugenic obsessed purists who are scared they were "changed" by the void and given power that they cannot understand. We're forced to fight the war for them, as only we have the power to take on the enemy... I think a Nyx or Loki frame discovers that the Orokin plan to wipe us out in some way at the end of the war... but we strike first."

 

Pretty much how it seems to be for 18 lore. However, there are still HUGE holes.

 

1/ Who is the stalker... WHY did finding out the truth drive him insane? 

2/ Why does the lotus sound like the scientist lady from thousands of years ago AND

3/ Why does she have a human body? Is the lotus piloting that as a Sentient in some way? Where did she get it from?

4/ Why did Hunhrow call Alad an Orokin? (with an amused tone of voice like he knew his secret...)

5/ How did the frame pull out the sword when we were not connected and falling unconscious? Are Warframes aware... and if so, when we are connected to one, is it a merging of two personalities into one? Hence why the frames have different "actions" when idle.

6/ Why were the children the only ones left on the ship... what happened to the adults?

7/ Which civilisation that alad says we almost destroyed fighting the Sentients is he talking about (can't be the orokin - that was after the war). 

 

So, call me interested and looking forward to more expose. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by AlphaAquilae

[fakeBOSHI]

Played through the second dream last night. Just have to say wow. Amazing job DE. The cinematics (including that little static effect, super cool), the music (absolutely brilliant), banter in between missions, the absolutely epic plot twist that simultaneously merges the experience of "playing as a warframe" and tenno being in a false reality.

 

I think the community has a tendency to be harsh at times but this update did NOT fail to deliver. Heres hoping to future updates to continue the epic story telling that this update has shown.

 

Thanks DE.

[Ethorin]

a few thoughts

 

1) Laser needs explicit instructions b/c when the F*** does anyone ever RIGHT CLICK then CHANNEL? also, nothing ELSE works so why would Parry?

2)Is Stalker Suicidal?

3)Did my Stringless Puppet just move itself?

4)Why is my Tenno an utter idiot? YTF are you deploying Archwing in a Void Mission? Why are you talking about Corpus when I'm in the Void(Not Sabotage). Yah yah, Corpus use robots, this is something I have known for a long long time and so should you cus we've been beating the crap out of these fuckwits for the last two years. No, Grineer Degradation isn't why they are violent, they are just Racist Nazi Fucktards.

5) Is Hunhow War?

6)Can enemies see my Tenno "Ghost" when hier shows up to mindspike stuff?

7)Can we get a warning about Kill Affinity Only?

8)Sorties are srsly high level and Second Dream is nowhere near that level so why is Sortie only source of additional lens other than trade?

9)New Sniper stuff is fun, Rubico is kind of sucky, ytf did I just get two Stalker encounters in the same day to blueprint drops of "None" and "My THIRD Dread" in that order? Also, Shadow Stalker and there were three, the first one killed me... Shadow Stalker is alot stronger than he was.

[NightmareT12]

Kara and myself just played it and we were both wow. 

 

We totally called it.

 

He's been reading the snippets of lore up to 18 and pretty much went (before 18 was released) 

 

"Frames are linked to the Tenno. The tenno are the kids on the ship... and the Orokin are racist/eugenic obsessed purists who are scared they were "changed" by the void and given power that they cannot understand. We're forced to fight the war for them, as only we have the power to take on the enemy... I think a Nyx or Loki frame discovers that the Orokin plan to wipe us out in some way at the end of the war... but we strike first."

 

Pretty much how it seems to be for 18 lore. However, there are still HUGE holes.

 

1/ Who is the stalker... WHY did finding out the truth drive him insane? 

2/ Why does the lotus sound like the scientist lady from thousands of years ago AND

3/ Why does she have a human body? Is the lotus piloting that as a Sentient in some way? Where did she get it from?

4/ Why did Hunhrow call Alad an Orokin? (with an amused tone of voice like he knew his secret...)

5/ How did the frame pull out the sword when we were not connected and falling unconscious? Are Warframes aware... and if so, when we are connected to one, is it a merging of two personalities into one? Hence why the frames have different "actions" when idle.

6/ Why were the children the only ones left on the ship... what happened to the adults?

7/ Which civilisation that alad says we almost destroyed fighting the Sentients is he talking about (can't be the orokin - that was after the war). 

 

So, call me interested and looking forward to more expose. 

I'll answer what I know:

1) If you believe for all your life that you're a human, but tomorrow you discover you're another entity in God knows which place... Well, you might have a breakdown. We're all seeing that from the point of view that this is sci-fi, but you must think for a second what would happen if you disvovered your whole life was a lie.

4) Corpus, if I am not mistaken, are Orokin "descendants". Grineer were cloned, high-class Orokin were wiped out by the Tenno, and the Corpus aree the result of the little remnants that remained of their society (most likely low class). Now, maybe I'm wrong and Alad V is really an Orokin who managed to Survive.

 

7) It's the Orokin. Even if it happened after the war (immedietely after, basically the Old War ended when the Tenno slayed their masters), it's pretty clear Alad references that back in the day, after the whole Sentients dilemma, the Orokin were slain by the Tenno.

 

[Lorienzo]

[spoilers] I'm just not liking the idea WFs are just puppets. If Operators can talk to them like they are an, or half an individual, that'll seem more interesting. But great job DE. Thankyou for always delivering.

 

All hail Space Avatars!!! [/spoilers]

Edited December 7, 2015 by Lorienzo

[(PSN)PaceBrkr]

I couldn't resist so I had to look into things since I'm cool with being spoiled with things. I was in awe... I suspected as much not exactly that we were mind controlling frames (I was thinking more along the lines of ascended energy beings). Watching the reveal left me moved. 

This changes everyone's perspective of things… But at the same time I do feel it is a bit jarring to be actively evoking the Operator now (yes, we can just say we are channeling part of our true power) but it it's still kinda awkward nonetheless but I suppose we'll get used to it in time. 

 

For my fellow Tenno who say their own dreams have been shattered - no longer able to believe that they were a warrior of legend, a war hero, a knight of justice - I say to you that you still are. That was still you doing those things even if you actually aren't a big bad stompin' Rhino or a chill Frost but you still did those things.

 

I guess for me I take the act of Transference as a form of astral projection/mental possession and not just remote controlling a "tin puppet" with my awesome Void-induced mental powers. Seems like there is more to the Warframe than it just being a surrogate strong enough to hold our powers. They are our partners so it makes sense that the Operator treats their frame like a companion. Despite the truth, I know that I maintain the balance and issue out justice where it needs to be served. Doesn't matter what I am or what I look like, I am a destructive force... and that is a force to be reckoned with.

Edited December 7, 2015 by (PS4)VanTX89

[Pavelord]

a few thoughts

 

1) Laser needs explicit instructions b/c when the F*** does anyone ever RIGHT CLICK then CHANNEL? also, nothing ELSE works so why would Parry?

2)Is Stalker Suicidal?

3)Did my Stringless Puppet just move itself?

4)Why is my Tenno an utter idiot? YTF are you deploying Archwing in a Void Mission? Why are you talking about Corpus when I'm in the Void(Not Sabotage). Yah yah, Corpus use robots, this is something I have known for a long long time and so should you cus we've been beating the crap out of these fuckwits for the last two years. No, Grineer Degradation isn't why they are violent, they are just Racist Nazi Fucktards.

5) Is Hunhow War?

6)Can enemies see my Tenno "Ghost" when hier shows up to mindspike stuff?

7)Can we get a warning about Kill Affinity Only?

8)Sorties are srsly high level and Second Dream is nowhere near that level so why is Sortie only source of additional lens other than trade?

9)New Sniper stuff is fun, Rubico is kind of sucky, ytf did I just get two Stalker encounters in the same day to blueprint drops of "None" and "My THIRD Dread" in that order? Also, Shadow Stalker and there were three, the first one killed me... Shadow Stalker is alot stronger than he was.

Hi, Ethorin, on point 5, Lotus explained that Hunhow is in fragments and that que can perceive and communicate with all the fragments, so yes, War is a piece of Hunhow, hence he asked Shadow to protect it.

[Zelkanok]

I really want to muse on the more meticulous parts of that last scene where the warframe moves by itself:

 

I would also like to propose that warframes themselves are gradually achieving sentience. The warframes during missions have health and require oxygen of sorts, so it would be safe to assume that there are definitely organic functions (technocyte?) to facilitate actions as well as neural networking for transference. In the last scenes of the second dream quest, the warframe moved alone without connection nor direct contact with the operator, alluding to either mystic powers in action or in fact the development of autonomous behavior. I don't believe that warframes already exhibit primal behavior of sorts as implied in the Rhino P Codex, as it clearly indicates how the warframe stops before the room with the "ones from Zariman," most likely operators within somatic links.

 

The initiation of this behavior could be from the beginning of construction, strengthened through constant use by the operator. In this instance, the imprint of a biological impulse remains within the warframe and aggregates with use over time.

 

Another scenario is where the tenno/operator during the mission first makes direct contact with the warframe, bypassing the usual somatic linkup via pod, generating a defect of some sorts (not necessarily a defect) in which residual mental capacity somehow left by the operator performs semiconscious actions. The cause may not be the absence of the somatic setup either, as the pod may also be an inhibitor and regulator of tenno power, as the operator would then been able to possibly have partial influence on the warframe indirectly within close proximity. Without the somatic pod, the tenno children have great difficulty retaining and holding back power, which could be highly detrimental to the frame of their actual body. Thus, they have to stay in the pods for stability-sake.

 

In a general sense, what would be occuring is mental replication (fabricated term), where the mind with its collective phaneron inhabits an vessel and actually relays portions of itself as an imprint, or another separate (nebulous or distinct) phaneron. Here, what essentially occurs is a new mind being born, initially identical to the root source until affected by later ramifications. In lapses where both the offshoot and the root are similar and in close proximity, coherence may occur, connecting senses and control between bodies. This is would be similar to quantum coherence, where two states become one state. This would also give vague explication to transference, as complex information from a biological process would need to be near instantaneous for proper functions--perhaps quantum teleportation, which would also explain the cloning of sentience within the warframe. Lastly, coherence and transference would lead to quantum entanglement, which would by definition result in which the components of that said system between the two sentient beings can not be described independently, where miracles happen. Transference does not seem to be 100%, so that definitely gives leeway for defects as well.

 

The reason why the tenno were originally mistaken about their actual forms is because the awakening from the first dream places the mind already within the warframe from the start. The memory is nearly wiped, it relearns based on its environment. Thus the initial confusion with what the tenno actually look like, and initial shock upon the awakening of the second dream.

 

In addition, the tenno project seemed to have been confidential to the higher inner circles of the orokin, as Davis from the Rhino P Codex says "No one would have believed me." as if his idea of operators from the Zariman was considered ridiculous by most of the public.

 

I'd say this opens up a lot of different types of lore, connecting warframe connections to technocyte, reference to dark sector and in between lore, as well as the infested effects upon a warframe and it's transference link to the operator.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Zelkanok

[aaron123589]

I think we should be able to replay the quest for fun, i want to see it one more time (or a dozen more times) with my decked out frost prime. this update was soo epic, i wonder what DE will try next with game cinema like this.

[Omnimorph]

For my fellow Tenno who say their own dreams have been shattered - no longer able to believe that they were a warrior of legend, a war hero, a knight of justice - I say to you that you still are. That was still you doing those things even if you actually aren't a big bad stompin' Rhino or a chill Frost but you still did those things.

 

I guess for me I take the act of Transference as a form of astral projection/mental possession and not just remote controlling a "tin puppet" with my awesome Void-induced mental powers. Seems like there is more to the Warframe than it just being a surrogate strong enough to hold our powers. They are our partners so it makes sense that the Operator treats their frame like a companion. Despite the truth, I know that I maintain the balance and issue out justice where it needs to be served. Doesn't matter what I am or what I look like, I am a destructive force... and that is a force to be reckoned with.

 

Yeah, it continues to baffle me how some people still don't seem to "get it".  Have they not seen Avatar? 

 

You, the Tenno, thought you were the Warframe and felt like you were the Warframe - so all that heroic or villainous stuff you did, you really did it, and you literally experienced it AS THE WARFRAME, just like Jake Sully experiences the world AS THE NAVI AVATAR.

 

It's science fiction people, it's supposed to be mind-blowing and like nothing you could experience now in the everyday world, but it's a possibility that technology is going to open up in the future.

 

Although even today, you can get an inkling of it with the Oculus Rift. So you can extrapolate it from there.  Connect an Oculus Rift to a drone and you are seeing with the drone's eyes.  Now imagine all the other senses - touch, taste, smell, etc. - imagine the drone has receptors for all those, and it's transmitting the info back to you.  Now imagine that instead of twiddling with a joystick, there's a direct link to the activity centres in your brain so when you think of steering left you steer left.

 

You feel like you are where the drone is - hence "transference".  Consciousness transference via technology.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Omnimorph

[DeltaPangaea]

Yeah, it continues to baffle me how some people still don't seem to "get it".  Have they not seen Avatar? 

 

You, the Tenno, thought you were the Warframe and felt like you were the Warframe - so all that heroic or villainous stuff you did, you really did it, and you literally experienced it AS THE WARFRAME, just like Jake Sully experiences the world AS THE NAVI AVATAR.

 

It's science fiction people, it's supposed to be mind-blowing and like nothing you could experience now in the everyday world, but it's a possibility that technology is going to open up in the future.

 

Although even today, you can get an inkling of it with the Oculus Rift. So you can extrapolate it from there.  Connect an Oculus Rift to a drone and you are seeing with the drone's eyes.  Now imagine all the other senses - touch, taste, smell, etc. - imagine the drone has receptors for all those, and it's transmitting the info back to you.  You feel like you are where the drone is - hence "transference".  Consciousness transference via technology.

It doesn't matter about 'what you did, you still did those things'

 

Because we've stepped out of the machine, and are just annoying psychic kids who spout inane dialogue if you give them half a chance.

 

A large amount of the people complaining (Like me for instance) would have been a lot more okay with the 'you're astral projecting into frames' thing if we weren't actually just potato-faced teenagers. Blob of biomass? Sure! A computer? Sure!

 

A stupid kid? Naw bro.

[Thumper3]

A large amount of the people complaining (Like me for instance) would have been a lot more okay with the 'you're astral projecting into frames' thing if we weren't actually just potato-faced teenagers. Blob of biomass? Sure! A computer? Sure!

 

A stupid kid? Naw bro.

 

 

While having kids controlling tools of war (mecha, battlesuits, etc) is cliche and way overdone it doesn't bother me as much as some of the gaps in logic.

 

The quest itself was interesting enough, the underwater search could have been done better instead of just "Search the area" with no clue as to what I am searching for and Alad V's "You're getting warmer....." when I was in a squad with 2 friends....so...which one of us is "getting warmer"?  Also, the end fight was clumsy I was down to 5 life before we realized we could fire an energy beam to attack while dragging the body.  LOL  Then the battle in the ship, same thing, had to figure out to just use the energy beam to deflect the stalker's attack just to get close enough to power the chair...and have to do it three times for some reason.

 

Here's my major question/complaint......if Tenno are controlling the warframe.....why is my Tenno talking to...well...himself during missions?  LOL  I mean, even if the Frames are more semi-sentient life that are merely open to being controlled and not raw manufactured "robots" as it were.....if the Tenno control the Frame why is the Tenno popping up during missions with tidbits and one liners?  Why would the Tenno tell the Frame to be careful....if the Tenno is controlling the Frame?  LMAO 

 

Seriously.....I feel like the tail is wagging the dog here.  Nothing wrong with the story being told that some kids were harnessed to fight wars with space ninja suits remotely controlled, but why do I need that kid to be in my ship and interact with it.  Are we going to see micro transactions to change our Tenno appearance (almost a certainly given the interface and the extremely limited starting options)?  Are we going to be our Tenno when wondering around the Relay's in the future?  I mean, what point is there in making the Tenno character such a huge part of the UI?  Feels like it's overly complex and clunky just to add in the Lenses and Focus element of gameplay.

[Marisa_Kirisame]

i do not like the kid thing, why cant i be a middle aged dude.

what way do you follow, dude i do not know m8. just bring me a beer...

[SeraIngvir]

I thought it was pretty great, and god, that new soundtrack is just beautiful, really brought out the cinematics.

 

Stalker siding with the Sentient at first just, seemed a bit of an out-of-character thing to do. I mean, the guy's got a huge crush on the Orokin, yet he sided with the plebs that started it all in the first place. But then, Hunhow mentioned and touched on Stalker's nature, that he might as well be somewhat similar to us, and his scene with our Tenno, then it hit me. Perhaps, it wasn't quite an outland-ish feat for Stalker to pull off.

 

FEEEELLL DAA POWAAAHHH. That little bit when yer frame carries the Tenno into extraction, as you can just spew all of your Void energy, was pretty cool.

 

Stalker's rework is well-done. I just love how he felt like an appropriate boss fight.

 

The transition into the facial creation screen is a bit of a thump IMO. So here yer are, immersing into some beautifully well done cinematics, and sinking in all the lorebombs and emotions, and pop! A facial creation screen!

 

Still, definitely, U18 is the greatest update so far, I luuuuv it.

[Omnimorph]

I must admit that the Tenno voice thing is probably the straw that broke the camel's back for some people - and DE must have felt it was dicey too, because they did give the option to turn it off.  I mean, already you've been channeled into something quite specific, and to have a specific voice saying specific and somewhat douchey things, is just a bit too much. 

 

I think it works for some people (to them it's just their thoughts, or their monologue with their Warframe, like you'd maybe say something to your car while driving it), but for others it's just a step too far in confusion as to what the player is supposed to be roleplaying in the game.

 

Once I've heard all the comments there are to hear, just for curiosity's sake, I'll be turning it off.  I'm happy being the child demigod piloting avatars, sorry Warframes, I don't really need to hear his/her voice too, except in cutscenes.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Omnimorph

[Weltraumfred]

I loved the Second Dream quest. Also I think that Sorties are a whole bunch of fun. And I'll try out reworked Rhino once I find the time.

 

So all thumbs up DE.

[Omnimorph]

One other feedback thing: I think the "pod" the Tenno is in in the Orbiter compartment should be CLOSED when you enter the compartment, and open up as you walk in.  This does happen if you're in the compartment, back out of it through the door to the Liset (when the "pod" closes), and go back into the compartment (when the "pod" then opens), but I think it should basically be closed ALL THE TIME, until you are very close. 

 

It should also be closed INITIALLY when you hit "Operator", and open pretty quickly with one of those swishy fx. 

 

This is needed to counteract some of the angst about being an "emo kid in a chair" - it would serve as a sort of rough-and-ready version of the request some people have to keep the "mask" on the Tenno, i.e. it would be less of a constant reminder to those who are uncomfortable with the reveal.  The "kid in chair" effect is misleading some people into thinking more poorly of the reveal than perhaps they otherwise might. 

 

A small thing, but it might make a reasonable difference psychologically to some.

[SpazzDragon]

Never has a Free to Play game ever given me as much satisfaction in any kind of story capacity like Warframe did with this Quest. And i did not expect to be blown away by it. It was like pieces to a puzzle finally fell into place, answering questions i have had for years. Now it all makes sense. The Bodies of the frames. The studies done by Alad V. I know there are still more questions needing answers. And after how perfect this one was. I simply cant wait for what will come next.

[HAMMERSAREGREAT]

Warframe has finally gone full evangelion. We are teenager-looking children in plugsuit-looking costumes mind-controlling (bio?)mechanical beasts. The transference pod thing even looks a bit like an Entry Plug. Hell, warframes may even have a soul.

Edit: Also, let's not forget Volt's helmets. Default is Unit-01, Pulse is 00 and Storm is 02.

Edited December 8, 2015 by HAMMERSAREGREAT

[Omnimorph]

Warframe has finally gone full evangelion. We are teenager-looking children in plugsuit-looking costumes mind-controlling (bio?)mechanical beasts. The transference pod thing even looks a bit like an Entry Plug. Hell, warframes may even have a soul.

Edit: Also, let's not forget Volt's helmets. Default is Unit-01, Pulse is 00 and Storm is 02.

 

It's not like Evangelion is terribly original either.  These are generic s-f ideas that have been around for donkey's years in various mix-and-match combinations.

 

If you want to know the real, actual, genuine origin of these kinds of ideas (generically called telemanipulation or teleoperation), it goes back to philosophical thought experiments (particularly thought experiments like the "brain in a vat" and its many variations, and particularly from two philosophers, Daniel C. Dennett and Derek Parfitt) stimulated by a conjunction of fledgling computer science and neurobiological discoveries and tech speculations in the 70s and early 80s, which then got filtered through early 80s s-f (where it joined with the stream of thought about virtual reality) and superhero comics, and then spread to anime in the 90s, and eventually movies like Avatar.  But there are some "components" of the idea that go back even further in time (before computer tech possibilities and neurobiology discoveries stimulated philosophical speculation) - things like Robert Heinlein's "Waldo" concept in the 40s, and going back even further, the Jewish myth of the Golem.

 

And anyway, DE have always been quite open about the anime influence on Warframe.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Omnimorph

[RedFoxVT]

The start, mid and finale of this quest left me speechless. Jeeeeeeeeeeeezus DE, I can't wait for more updates or the inevitable future when you announce another single player title. You guys are good! *casually slides over piece of paper.* Can I start tomorrow? XD

[Warlock_Of_Oz]

I completed U18 day of release, today i got more of that odd writing that caused "glitches" on the screen like we had on previously, anyone know where i can upload pics to translate?

[ikej96]

Who voices Hunhow?

[Cortanis]

... Please tell me that they're working on a way to let us redo this quest. I really just want to play through it again. Also, what happened to the other half of broken war?