Rhino Changes Feedback [U18 Megathread]

[Edermask_]

I also wish we could chose the color of our iron skin. Besides that, #4 seems a lot better now that you can recast it. #2 also feels in a good place right now but being able to release it like the augment does without having to sacrifice a mod would be a nice quality of life change. Having some more armor would help in between the moments your iron skin is down. In the end, i'm pretty happy with #2 and #4 buff.

[FLSH_BNG]

Gonna have to chime in to say (even if it's been mentioned already) that Rhino's armor values still haven't been changed from their pre-U18 values.

 

Rhino still only has 190 armor and Rhino Prime has 275.

 

Compared to Excalibur with 225 and Prime with 250.

 

Shouldn't Rhino, a heavy warframe, the original tank from the first 8 warframes have an armor value that reflects that? Even Atlas has an armor value of 450 and he's not even a tank but a brawler!

 

I would think that a minimum armor of 400 for Rhino would be called for, heck bring it to 500 and make his armor second only to Valkyr's!

It just seems odd that a mod like Steel Fiber would be of better service to a light brawler or berserker than it would to a warframe that literally embodies a hulking mass of solid metal crashing it's way through enemy ranks.

 

This wouldn't even be a difficult change, a few lines of code and values changed and we could have this hotfixed in a few hours or so.

Edited December 6, 2015 by FLSH_BNG

[Ronyn]

ALrighty. Got to play around with Rhino a bit.

My first thought is mostly good changes. He is far more capable of actually tanking at reasonable levels now.

Though, like many others have pointed out, I believe his armor value is still far too low for his theme and purpose.

Also...his charge power seems like it's supposed to do damage but it's actually not very hard hitting past level 30 or 40.

I think the idea of making it scale to melee mods should still be implemented.

 

I was hoping that Roar would be recastable while still active. I'm on the fence about stomp being recastable because I fear that too much hard CC turns the game into a shooting gallery. 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

He needs more armor like at least 400 and roar should do a guaranteed impact proc to surrounding enemies. His passive should instead give him a 10% dmg increase when wielding heavy weapons like scindo and magistar.

[Ronyn]

Rhino still can't actually block with his melee weapon when iron skin is active.

I know some folks think iron skin is so strong blocking isnt important...

but considering how many types of missions DE is making with level 80 to 100 enemies Tank frames need every extra bit of defense we can muster.

Heck, Valkyr can block while hysteria is active.

[Otorinth]

Off-topic:  

   People keep using the term "tank", but there's no real way to force everything to attack you and only you and keep it that way. Whenever I think "tank" in an RPG-sense, I bundle it with being able to forcibly draw hostile attention away from allies/objectives, ect, not just having a metric-ton of HP/EHP. I mean, what's the point in having all of that defense when everything in the room isn't focused on hitting you? Meh, perhaps I'm just being a stickler. Then again, by my definition, Frost is TECHNICALLY (lotta' technicalities, as in he has no form of aggro generation as well.) the best tank , in my opinion, due to the fact that enemies have no real choice but to fire at his bubble(assuming allies/objectives are inside of it), or walk into it and get frozen/slowed/shredded by allies. *Shrugs* It just kind of grates at me when people say "tank" when there's no form of aggro generation.

 

On-topic: Changes are pretty good for the most part. Roar seems kind of buggy and doesn't increase any damage at all sometimes. New passive is super situational. Idk, maybe casting Roar could initiate a soft-enmity generation, where enemies within it's effective range are forced to attack Rhino for x amount of seconds decided by Duration. 

[Nihillian]

I agree with many by saying that Rhino REALLY needs an armor buff. After some extensive testing against void enemies and regular lvl 100 chargers, Iron skin doesn't benefit all that much from Iron lad charge or armor in particular. Mostly due to the fact that his armor is really low compared to the other tanky frames that actually can become IMMORTAL (Valkyr and to an extent Chroma, who does a lot better job at staying alive than Rhino due to His armor and skills)

 

500 armor atleast must really be done. The original "tank" frame still isn't THAT tanky. I do like the fact that ironclad charge increases the armor that iron skin receives, that makes it not just a press 2 to stay inmortal but makes you do a setup that can be really rewarding or a little less. But it does increase the fun factor for me in playing Rhino.

 

Another thing: Y U NO MELEE MOD CHARGE? Lower the base damage, let it be less than EB and atlas' first and just have it do some more damage. Currently, even with Stomps bonus damage, it is really lackluster. If it scaled with melee mods it would be great (especially fun to play with Stomp and charging all around to hit those enemies, that is a lot of fun to do but not rewarding enough)

 

All in all, it is a large step in the right direction, just a few small tweaks to Charge and a higher stat on Armor and itr would be great.

[DSMatticus]

1) So, stomp is recastable now. On one hand, this makes Rhino viable top-tier crowd control, and that's good. Rhino really didn't have a lot to bring to difficult content before, and now he does. On the other hand, the energy economy is still broken and that means Rhino is another "spam 4 to CC every enemy on the map" frame. Note how I said another. That doesn't mean OP plz nerf. If that's the kind of play DE's aiming for, then let's just be happy that Rhino can finally really participate. And then we can grumble or not grumble about whether or not that's the kind of play DE should be aiming for separately.

 

2) Roar still isn't recastable. Why isn't roar recastable? What possible reason could this ability have for not being recastable? Roar is the ONLY damage multiplier in the game that isn't recastable (spores, molecular prime, sonar), and it's ALSO the weakest or second weakest (spores being the other competitor for the bronze medal). Please, for the love of god just make roar recastable. Please. Give me my freaking quality of life change.

 

3) Rhino's armor is still trash. Give him 300 (like Frost), and then slap an extra 100-150 on Rhino Prime. Yes, that will make him super tanky. He should be super tanky.

Edited December 6, 2015 by DSMatticus

[TheBrsrkr]

Really?

I find it so satisfying >:)

It sounds like a really loud fart in an opera hall. It doesn't really sound like a Shockwave, more like a discharge of some sort.

[dodyouserious]

rhino still not that tanky compare to valkyr rhino needs armor buff 

[Ciema]

In liset i have iron skin +8k in abilities but in game when i click abilities i have 4k its visual bug?

Rhino need recastable iron skin and dmg from melee mods to charge and little more armor

[AwesomePandaJoe]

So I have been thinking of some cool new combo Warframe specific to be exact. I am not sure if people have thought about this interaction Rhino Stomp plus Oberon's Smite or their 4 button can do extra damage. Rhino Stomps then sends enemies into the air then Oberon Smites them back down for double the damage or something.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I just think the rework to rhino was given little thought by DE. Excalibur got a ton of love in his rework but rhino was just quickly given a once over.

Rhinos armor needs a signifigant buff plus roar needs a knockdown proc when iron skin is active as well as a damage buff.

Charge needs instead to increase speed for the group, multiplicative per enemy killed.

Iron skin needs 4 secs of invulnerability and should also increase rhino stomp and rhino charge damage while active.

Rhino stomp needs to debuff enemies in some way while their in stasis, perhaps lower their armor by a percentage.

If DE had thought any of this through perhaps we would have more applicable synergy. Instead, they randomly through his abilities in a pot and did a draw on how they would work. They seem more interested in perfecting new frames than giving old favorites a new lease on life.

Someone with sum pull, plz fix this.

Also, his passive should be something more dynamic like he gains +2% energy recharge when affected by leech eximus or sum such. Something unique. Maybe he gains a 15% recharge to his shields when fighting corpus, or if an enemy attks him with melee they suffer an impact proc.

Edited December 6, 2015 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[KanesDeath]

I just think the rework to rhino was given little thought by DE. Excalibur got a ton of love in his rework but rhino was just quickly given a once over.

 

 

Heavy Impact passive was meant to bring Rhino inline with Excalibur clearly. Problem is Heavy Impact in its current form doesnt work.

[Ronyn]

Off-topic:  

   People keep using the term "tank", but there's no real way to force everything to attack you and only you and keep it that way. Whenever I think "tank" in an RPG-sense, I bundle it with being able to forcibly draw hostile attention away from allies/objectives, ect, not just having a metric-ton of HP/EHP. I mean, what's the point in having all of that defense when everything in the room isn't focused on hitting you? Meh, perhaps I'm just being a stickler. Then again, by my definition, Frost is TECHNICALLY (lotta' technicalities, as in he has no form of aggro generation as well.) the best tank , in my opinion, due to the fact that enemies have no real choice but to fire at his bubble(assuming allies/objectives are inside of it), or walk into it and get frozen/slowed/shredded by allies. *Shrugs* It just kind of grates at me when people say "tank" when there's no form of aggro generation.

The things about the term tank is....

Three points-

1: DE has referred to rhino as a tank. SO they want him to be one in whatever form that happens to take.

 

2:I know some folks view the term "tank" as an RPG/MMO game term.

However plenty of developers use the term "tank" for role designs in a variety of other types of games and genres.

For example-Blizzard (the makers of WOW) are making a game called overwatch.

They use the term "tank" as one of their roles that several characters fit into. http://us.battle.net/overwatch/en/

Riots game, League of legends, use term tank to describe one of the core roles that several of their characters fit into. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/site/guide/roles.html

In both cases a lot of the "tanks" don't have any sort of aggro manipulation mechanics.

 

3: If one really wants to see rhino act as an a"aggro tank" then it's a matter of asking for it.

Aggro exists in warframe in many places. From things like molt or decoy to Nyx's absorb which pulls aggro directly to herself.

In fact, Iron Skin was given an aggro draw back in U8, they worked on it through U10, then eventually it stopped working.

U8 patch notes: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/49101-update-8-rise-of-the-warlords/

U10 patch notes:  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/117806-update-1030-hump-day/

We don't know for sure why it stopped working..whether it was intentional or accidental.

 

On-topic: Changes are pretty good for the most part. Roar seems kind of buggy and doesn't increase any damage at all sometimes. New passive is super situational. Idk, maybe casting Roar could initiate a soft-enmity generation, where enemies within it's effective range are forced to attack Rhino for x amount of seconds decided by Duration. 

If roar is going to draw aggro, it should only do so while iron skin is active. Otherwise rhino is just asking to get killed.

[Gelkor]

Playing with it more.  I'm still liking Iron Skin's armor scaling, and I'm not personally sure Rhino needs more armor, though that may be because of the existence of Ironclad Charge.

 

That said:

 

I'm increasingly disappointing Rhino Charge didn't get changed into a melee-mod scaling ability. I also kinda wish they had gone with the rumored change of Iron Skin's base health being based on Frame Total Health, giving it better low and high level scaling, but that's just me.

 

And Iron Skin and Roar seem to be completely borked when not hosting, they either are incredibly weak or don't even work unless you are running solo or guaranteed hosting. 

[Iraetus]

The Rhino changes are welcome. But overall, he is still a mess. (Coming from a person who doesn't play Rhino, doesn't hate him, but observes how he plays).

 

I agree with the others that

 

2x damage from Rhino Charge while the enemies are in stasis is a bit random.

 

Plus, you add that Blast Proc thing from Iron Skin. Rhino already sends people flying away. Adding a Blast Proc, does nothing at all.

 

Iron Skin needs 4 seconds invulnerability, that I agree with. Other than that, I guess its okay. (Oh, the blocking, fix the blocking). (The 4 seconds thing also needs to draw agro)

 

 

Roar? This skill is lazy as hell. I'm pretty sure you can't be more creative like my next suggestion.

Make Piercing Roar part of Roar. (Debuff on enemy damage, buff on you and ally damage, makes sense right?)

 

Rhino Stomp, no complaints.

 

Oh, more armor. Just as long as its not under 300, i'm pretty sure that's okay.

[Scytze]

Peep's do you guys really want to turn Rhino to Atlas 2.0? Landslide is hes bread and butter not rhino's

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Id prefer rhino charge to wirk more like a bulldozer

[Epicagemo]

Only problem I have with the rhino changes were of his first ability. Base range feels so gimped, but that might just be coming from a duration abuser.

Edit: a distance coverage buff is what I would like. It's too short right now! (I'm at base range)

Edited December 7, 2015 by Epicagemo

[Ronyn]

Peep's do you guys really want to turn Rhino to Atlas 2.0? Landslide is hes bread and butter not rhino's

Whether or not charge is rhinos bread and butter is a matter of opinion.

The more relevant issue is that the game puts us up against level 80 to 100 enemies often these days. Without weapon mod scaling a lot of powers just don't hit hard enough to be considered decent damage powers at that stage of The game.

I think we need to stop thinking of weapon mod scaling as some unique to certain frames mechanic....and start applying it more commonly.

Sure there are other ways to go like finisher damage or percentage damage...and I'm open to those when applicable too.

As long as the goal of making damage powers actually damage powers I'm cool with whichever mechanic is applied.

[Unagi604]

I tried building around charge after the update and it's not good.  The range on first cast of charge really is too short to be usable unless enemies are already within where I would normally use a melee sliding attack (usually using a Kittag).  A recasted charge chain distance is better but given cast times and with the relatively low maximum damage (2600 damage before modifiers) compared to any average weapon, it doesn't warrant spamming charges to build up the multiplier.  Basically to fully use charge, it means stopping all of your other offenses to do it, since the skills need to be recast within the short window.  Also with the recast window, even if it did do some crazy damage, it's hard to apply the damage to the enemies since you don't really have enough time to re-aim each attack well, which is made worse by having the initial attacks throwing enemies around.

 

This leaves charge as a utility skill for me.  It also doesn't seem good as a mobility option either.  From what I've seen it is faster than bullet jumping once at maximum cast chain, but this means you get no control over height, and stopping to climb a platform or jump over or move around an obstacle means that your combo counter is back at 0, and you're going the minimum distance again.  Overall, using it to move anywhere other than an enormous flat open area, it's slower than normal movement, and even then, I can't tell if it's going significantly faster than normal movement without heavy focus on reach mods.  The only thing really useful on charge is the knockdown effect which it already did before.

 

If that already wasn't enough for me to stop using it, corrupted mods for maximizing the other (far far more useful in my opinion) skills, has bad synergy with charge since it means losing reach.  Maximizing charge with corrupted mods, also means losing power on the other skills.

 

Charge use to be a crazy fun, but not extremely useful skill for me.  Now it's neither fun, nor is it useful.

[lookindown]

Having a passive is always nice , especially when its related to the theme of the frame, Rhino being a heavy guy and all ( with 190 armor LOL) no but really. How USELESS is his new passive? Its not even situational . it looks cool sure, cant say the same for the sound, but when can a rhino player actually use it for in a practical situation? Almost absolutely never.

Edited December 8, 2015 by lookindown

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

His passive is stupid

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

What if I use the heavy impact mod on top of his ??? Oooooh