Has Warframe Been Ruined By The Update 18 Reveal? [Spoiler City.]

[Omnimorph]

I wouldn't assume that Chinese ads have any in-game lore relevance even to the Chinese game. Advertising is much more fast-and-lose there than the western world. As Rebecca said, interpret those ads as a metaphor.

 

IMHO the Chinese game lore will end up much the same as ours.

 

And after all, when the game started, most people were under the impression it was an Iron Man type of situation.  It's perfectly fine for Chinese players to start off with the same impression.

 

Which makes me wonder...

 

Did they learn all that stuff while inside the warframes? Obviously, their powers are innate, but Tenno are masters of conventional warfare as well. You know, tactics, marksmanship, covert operations, all sorts of melee combat. They had to learn it somehow, at first they were just kids. So either they were trained while inside the warframes, or the skills were already there and when they merge minds with the suit, or whatever it is that they are doing, they just make use of it. In that case, the Operator would provide void sorcery, while the warframe brings physical prowess.

 

My point is that there can be much more to this than meets the eye. The fact that the Operator is there does not make Warframes any less of badass characters... yet. 

 

Think of the way Jake Sully is trained by Neytiri in the Omatikaya clan's ways in the movie Avatar. 

 

While you're "in" a warframe/avatar, you're seeing the world through its eyes, experiencing the world through its sensors/senses - everything you learn while in the warframe/avatar, you're learning as you, and you're also getting the warframe/avatar's own "nervous system" and "musculo-skeletal" system (whatever it is, whether it's computerized or whatever, made of nano-technological stuffs, metals, plastics, Infested flesh, or genetically-modified biologically-evolved type of body, doesn't matter) attuned to those moves (hence "affinity").

 

And of course if you're "stuck" in the warframe, if you really feel you're it, then how you interact with others, building a culture of interaction over the years, etc., etc., that gets learned too.

 

It has to be remembered that the Tenno have always felt that they are or are "in" their warframes, they haven't known the truth (which is that they are dreaming in VR pods,with the dream being connected to reality through the somatic link and the warframe).

 

It's sort of Avatar-in-reverse actually - as if Jake Sully started off life in his Na'avi avatar, participating fully in Na'avi culture, not knowing he was actually an earth soldier called Jake Sully, and then one day he stumbled upon the clearing with the VR pods ... 

 

extend the metaphor so that it's like the whole Omatikaya clan are all actually soldiers in VR pods, and the culture they've developed has been developed while they've unknowingly been soldiers in pods all along.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Omnimorph

[StonedMakak]

Think of the way Jake Sully is trained by Neytiri in the Omatikaya clan's ways in the movie Avatar. 

 

While you're "in" a warframe/avatar, you're seeing the world through its eyes, experiencing the world through its sensors/senses - everything you learn while in the warframe/avatar, you're learning as you, and you're also getting the warframe/avatar's own "nervous system" and "musculo-skeletal" system (whatever it is, whether it's computerized or whatever, made of nano-technological stuffs, metals, plastics, Infested flesh, or genetically-modified biologically-evolved type of body, doesn't matter) attuned to those moves (hence "affinity").

 

And of course if you're "stuck" in the warframe, if you really feel you're it, then how you interact with others, building a culture of interaction over the years, etc., etc., that gets learned too.

 

It has to be remembered that the Tenno have always felt that they are or are "in" their warframes, they haven't known the truth (which is that they are dreaming in VR pods,with the dream being connected to reality through the somatic link and the warframe).

 

It's sort of Avatar-in-reverse actually - as if Jake Sully started off life in his Na'avi avatar, participating fully in Na'avi culture, not knowing he was actually an earth soldier called Jake Sully, and then one day he stumbled upon the clearing with the VR pods ... 

 

extend the metaphor so that it's like the whole Omatikaya clan are all actually soldiers in VR pods, and the culture they've developed has been developed while they've unknowingly been soldiers in pods all along.

 

Oh, I definitely get your point, wouldn't be surprised if it went down like that in the lore too. I was just entertaining one of the other possibilities if warframes themselves are at least semi-sentient. If I remember Avatar correctly the Na'avi bodies used by humans were just empty vessels? Like I said in my previous post, I would much prefer a more of a symbiotic partnership than straight up pilot & vessel deal. If we're going with movie examples think Pacific Rim where two pilots merge their psyche to control a giant robot, but in Warframe one pilot is the actual robot.

 

IMHO it would open up interesting possibilities in the future e.g. a splinter group of warframes that gained full sentience perhaps? It would also unrustle some jimmies (this thread for instance), as warframes would be full-time characters again. Anyways, I agree that the Na'avi thingy is more likely. 

 

I don't watch anime either, and I feel that this Evangelion thing makes for a far better analogy, might actually google it up to see what all the fuss is about. 

Edited December 10, 2015 by tisdfogg

[GhostLacuna]

"Small children" that are hundreds of years old and attempted genocide. They're kids in appearance only.

 

Then perhaps we should tell DE how to learn to write dialogue that are mature and have some competence behind the words. 

 

The dialogue choices and the transmissions are terrible inept and there is not a single sliver of maturity behind what they say. 

 

So unless DE actually make them say something remotely competent they are nothing but children.

 

Children with the naive mindset that only those that lack experience can have. 

 

Experience is what make people mature. Age only give you a chance to have more experience since you have had a longer time to gain it. 

 

Lets use another fictional example. 

 

We put a 5 year old in cryo sleep for exactly 100000 years. During this time they experience nothing. 

 

Their age will be 100005 but their experience and maturity will still be that of a 5 year old. 

 

now lets instead but a child at 5 in cryosleep but instead of letting them just sleep for 100000 years we lets them transfer their mind/essence/soul what ever to a body and experience the universe they live in during 100 years. 

 

now when they awake from cryosleep they will have the experience of someone who is 105 years old. 

 

This is where DE fail with their presentation of the tenno. 

 

They do not only look around 10 year old but also behave as 10 year olds. 

 

The tenno should be child soldiers marked by what they have experienced during all those millenniums. 

 

There are plenty of interviews and stories from real child soldiers around.

 

I cant take the cute dialogue we have now with a straight face. 

[Gullim92]

I feel like people are forgetting the fact that now we know we're not some guy swapping between costumes

Yes, we technically are one guy/girl. But the warframes themselves are creatures, living beings that have a mind of their own, as seen in the final moments of the second dream

 

Isn't that better than before? now we KNOW that each warframe is a living thing, isn't that what people wanted?

[SilentMobius]

I feel like people are forgetting the fact that now we know we're not some guy swapping between costumes

Yes, we technically are one guy/girl. But the warframes themselves are creatures, living beings that have a mind of their own, as seen in the final moments of the second dream

 

Isn't that better than before? now we KNOW that each warframe is a living thing, isn't that what people wanted?

 

This is an assumption and one that, IMHO, requires more validation that it currently has, given how expansive the repercussions are.

 

Do you not think it's more likely the Operator was simply remote controlling the Warframe for a moment given that much the same situation presents itself in the Rhino Prime Codex.

 

Please let's not start grasping at straws again, and then getting upset when shown to be mistaken.

 

"Living" is fine, I think we can all agree on some Technocyte material being used in Warframe construction. But "have a mind of their own"? That is a hell of a leap to just state outright as truth.

[Omnimorph]

Then perhaps we should tell DE how to learn to write dialogue that are mature and have some competence behind the words. 

 

The dialogue choices and the transmissions are terrible inept and there is not a single sliver of maturity behind what they say. 

 

So unless DE actually make them say something remotely competent they are nothing but children.

 

Children with the naive mindset that only those that lack experience can have. 

 

Experience is what make people mature. Age only give you a chance to have more experience since you have had a longer time to gain it. 

 

Lets use another fictional example. 

 

We put a 5 year old in cryo sleep for exactly 100000 years. During this time they experience nothing. 

 

Their age will be 100005 but their experience and maturity will still be that of a 5 year old. 

 

now lets instead but a child at 5 in cryosleep but instead of letting them just sleep for 100000 years we lets them transfer their mind/essence/soul what ever to a body and experience the universe they live in during 100 years. 

 

now when they awake from cryosleep they will have the experience of someone who is 105 years old. 

 

This is where DE fail with their presentation of the tenno. 

 

They do not only look around 10 year old but also behave as 10 year olds. 

 

The tenno should be child soldiers marked by what they have experienced during all those millenniums. 

 

There are plenty of interviews and stories from real child soldiers around.

 

I cant take the cute dialogue we have now with a straight face. 

 

I agree, I should think there were probably quite a few people who could "take" the lore shift, but the stupid comments were a step too far.

 

While I think the lore turn is excellent and very satisfying, I definitely agree that the gameplay VO is crap. 

 

The voice acting is ok, and even the 4 basic voices are kind of ok in tone and they're fine in the cutscenes in the quest (you can sort of read "quite old, experienced person just with a small voice box" into them), but man, some (not absolutely all, but some) of the content of those in-game comments just really screw the pooch.

 

Even if DE think they need to keep some of the inane commentary just for our younger friends, they need to re-script and/or expand the commentary to have "older" and more mature content in the comments, that actually fit with the lore as they've established it.  (i.e. not as if it's some contemporary kid who's just discovered a warframe in the garage and is experiencing everything for the first time).

Edited December 10, 2015 by Omnimorph

[Omnimorph]

Oh, I definitely get your point, wouldn't be surprised if it went down like that in the lore too. I was just entertaining one of the other possibilities if warframes themselves are at least semi-sentient. If I remember Avatar correctly the Na'avi bodies used by humans were just empty vessels? Like I said in my previous post, I would much prefer a more of a symbiotic partnership than straight up pilot & vessel deal. If we're going with movie examples think Pacific Rim where two pilots merge their psyche to control a giant robot, but in Warframe one pilot is the actual robot.

 

IMHO it would open up interesting possibilities in the future e.g. a splinter group of warframes that gained full sentience perhaps? It would also unrustle some jimmies (this thread for instance), as warframes would be full-time characters again. Anyways, I agree that the Na'avi thingy is more likely. 

 

I don't watch anime either, and I feel that this Evangelion thing makes for a far better analogy, might actually google it up to see what all the fuss is about. 

 

I can understand that some players think their frame has some sentience.  It is kind of unclear from the Second Dream cinematic itself.

 

I can also understand SilentMoebius' point that it's not actually supported by the lore that they're sentient, only that they have some kind of living matter comprising them, and possibly some rudimentary sentience (maybe like the "beast" in the Rhino codex, whatever it is, proto-warframe or whatever) - while at the same time, it is supported in the Rhino codex that some degree of "natural" control is possible if the frame and Tenno are physically close enough.

 

And yet ... and yet ... if you look at the behaviour of the Tenno being strangled, there isn't really a hint that it's trying to do something (i.e. remote control the warframe). Visually speaking, the Tenno just seems to be barely coping with being strangled. 

 

And isn't it a point of cinematic art to show?

 

I'm not sure whether this is just an oversight in the design of the cinematic, or it really does mean something like this:-

 

That while a fresh warframe "out of the box" has no sentience, or only very limited, "brutish" sentience, when a warframe has been piloted by the same Tenno for a long time, it develops on its own a kind of "ghost" of personality, or a slightly less limited, or enhanced sentience - or maybe a sense of loyalty?  Difficult to say.

 

The other interpretation I've seen that's not "the Tenno did it", but also not "the Tenno's brave, loyal warframe did it", is that the limited sentience in the warframe was sufficient to try and break War just to stop the pain.  I guess that's possible too, but it seems too weak, somehow.

 

I think if you do include more sentience in the warframe, it can still be effectively Avatar-ish in the sense that the Tenno is still experiencing life from the warframe's point of view, and still moving its limbs as if it were his or her own, etc. - only there might be some element of dialogue going on, or cajolling (like a rider and horse), or even husband-and-wife style internal argument (like some s-f symbiotic situations).

 

But while that would be pretty cool, again, I'm not seeing how it can be supported by anything written down so far: after all the whole point of it was that it was a "dream" in which the Tenno felt they were/were "in",the warframe (i.e. purely an Avatar type of situation). There's no hint that they felt they were in dialogue with "something else" or in a rider/horse relationship, while in that dream.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Omnimorph

[StonedMakak]

I can understand that some players think their frame has some sentience.  It is kind of unclear from the Second Dream cinematic itself.

 

I can also understand SilentMoebius' point that it's not actually supported by the lore that they're sentient, only that they have some kind of living matter comprising them, and possibly some rudimentary sentience (maybe like the "beast" in the Rhino codex, whatever it is, proto-warframe or whatever) - while at the same time, it is supported in the Rhino codex that some degree of "natural" control is possible if the frame and Tenno are physically close enough.

 

And yet ... and yet ... if you look at the behaviour of the Tenno being strangled, there isn't really a hint that it's trying to do something (i.e. remote control the warframe). Visually speaking, the Tenno just seems to be barely coping with being strangled. 

 

And isn't it a point of cinematic art to show?

 

I'm not sure whether this is just an oversight in the design of the cinematic, or it really does mean something like this:-

 

That while a fresh warframe "out of the box" has no sentience, or only very limited, "brutish" sentience, when a warframe has been piloted by the same Tenno for a long time, it develops on its own a kind of "ghost" of personality, or a slightly less limited, or enhanced sentience - or maybe a sense of loyalty?  Difficult to say.

 

The other interpretation I've seen that's not "the Tenno did it", but also not "the Tenno's brave, loyal warframe did it", is that the limited sentience in the warframe was sufficient to try and break War just to stop the pain.  I guess that's possible too, but it seems too weak, somehow.

 

I think if you do include more sentience in the warframe, it can still be effectively Avatar-ish in the sense that the Tenno is still experiencing life from the warframe's point of view, and still moving its limbs as if it were his or her own, etc. - only there might be some element of dialogue going on, or cajolling (like a rider and horse), or even husband-and-wife style internal argument (like some s-f symbiotic situations).

 

But while that would be pretty cool, again, I'm not seeing how it can be supported by anything written down so far: after all the whole point of it was that it was a "dream" in which the Tenno felt they were/were "in",the warframe (i.e. purely an Avatar type of situation). There's no hint that they felt they were in dialogue with "something else" or in a rider/horse relationship, while in that dream.

 

Don't worry, I'm not making up new headcanon to get around my disappointment. Truth be told my disappointment steams form the fact that I usually strongly identify with characters in games that I can customize (even if to a small degree, like Warframe). So when suddenly new character is introduced that is supposed to be you, even more so than before... kinda breaks immersion. Now I have to get attached to that "kid", and it will be fine once I do, I'm sure. It's not that I think the plot is bollocks. Makes any sense?

 

So in the vein of pure speculation, I'd be totally fine with just a rudimentary form of sentience. Forgive another stretched movie metaphor but Arnold form Terminator 2 is a good example. Like in the beginning he is just a killing machine with a mission to protect John Connor, but as the movie progress, John helps him develop some form of heighten awareness, if not humanity, that goes beyond simple programming. He becomes less "search & destroy" and more "I'm actually a life-form", though he is still an AI bound by his protocols. That kind of relationship between the Operator and the warframe would be cool in my opinion. Not that I want dialog between the two, just mutual bond. Hey, but if warframes turn out to be just tools, I'm fine. Just make the Operator awesome...

 

... starting with rewriting 90% of dialog, you nailed it with a teenager who found a warframe in his garage. 

[Omnimorph]

Don't worry, I'm not making up new headcanon to get around my disappointment. Truth be told my disappointment steams form the fact that I usually strongly identify with characters in games that I can customize (even if to a small degree, like Warframe). So when suddenly new character is introduced that is supposed to be you, even more so than before... kinda breaks immersion. Now I have to get attached to that "kid", and it will be fine once I do, I'm sure. It's not that I think the plot is bollocks. Makes any sense?

 

So in the vein of pure speculation, I'd be totally fine with just a rudimentary form of sentience. Forgive another stretched movie metaphor but Arnold form Terminator 2 is a good example. Like in the beginning he is just a killing machine with a mission to protect John Connor, but as the movie progress, John helps him develop some form of heighten awareness, if not humanity, that goes beyond simple programming. He becomes less "search & destroy" and more "I'm actually a life-form", though he is still an AI bound by his protocols. That kind of relationship between the Operator and the warframe would be cool in my opinion. Not that I want dialog between the two, just mutual bond. Hey, but if warframes turn out to be just tools, I'm fine. Just make the Operator awesome...

 

... starting with rewriting 90% of dialog, you nailed it with a teenager who found a warframe in his garage. 

 

No, that makes sense and I definitely agree that Operator awesomeness has got to be on the cards, which requires a lot more options.

 

But of course, grinding for options is what this game is all about, and DE have cunningly just opened up a whole new field of things to grind for or buy with plat :)

 

Truth to tell, even though I instantly "got" the lore, and loved it, I still had the same visceral reaction of "do not want" when I saw the kid that others have expressed.

 

But that's unavoidable, since essentially the character creation process is a blank slate, so DE had to choose one of tens of thousands of possible faces, with an implicit personality.  And the chances of the provided face fitting with any individual player's sense of the personality of who they are in-game, is virtually zero, even if they try and make it as "neutral" a thing as possible (which they obviously did).  Plus of course,for some people they just viscerally can't play a character that looks young regardless of how old its mind is, how experienced it is as a person.

 

So yeah, the accidental disjunction between every player's in-game personality and what they first saw, plus the inept script on some of the in-game Tenno VO, must have really put off some people who might otherwise have gotten into it without a problem, so now we have to get those stray sheep back into the fold (and sadly, wave goodby to those with whom it just doesn't sit well, no matter how you explain it).

 

Now that I've had a few rounds at customizing my Tenno, I'm getting happier and happier with her (I tend to play female characters) - she's starting to look like an old, experienced, highly skilled and absolutely deadly, but somewhat wry and whimsical person, in a body that just happens to look biologically young :)

 

Edited December 10, 2015 by Omnimorph

[UrielColtan]

I feel like people are forgetting the fact that now we know we're not some guy swapping between costumes

Yes, we technically are one guy/girl. But the warframes themselves are creatures, living beings that have a mind of their own, as seen in the final moments of the second dream

 

Isn't that better than before? now we KNOW that each warframe is a living thing, isn't that what people wanted?

 

 

Even if it were true,  I don't like it, and Frames themselves are too invalid mentally from the looks of it and about as crippled as the Tenno themselves when the Tenno are not puppeting them around.

I'd prefer an option of Tenno from some different school, who were not put to sleep in the moon, matured a bit more and just wear the frames as suits.

Edited December 10, 2015 by UrielColtan

[Nireas]

I bet DE will call it Symbiosis and be done with it. A sentient warframe organism in a symbiotic relationship with an operator. We might as well fuse them together and that way we can all imagine ourselves fusing with our warframes and becoming one. Long live the new union.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Nireas

[StabbyTentacles]

Given that the Loremaster only watched Evangelion after writing the Second dream, it's not likely.

 

https://twitter.com/sj_sinclair/status/672777958386479104?lang=en-gb

I call from the heavens… bs!

 

Even if it were true,  I don't like it, and Frames themselves are too invalid mentally from the looks of it and about as crippled as the Tenno themselves when the Tenno are not puppeting them around.

I'd prefer an option of Tenno from some different school, who were not put to sleep in the moon, matured a bit more and just wear the frames as suits.

It Fits well, and would be a very simple/clean solution.  (Maybe an optional quest)

 

I bet DE will call it Symbiosis and be done with it. A sentient warframe organism in a symbiotic relationship with an operator. We might as well fuse them together and that way we can all imagine ourselves fusing with our warframes and becoming one. Long live the new union.

Maybe another optional quest, where those who don't want the operator choose to link with their warframes, becoming ‘Super Stardust Ultra’, Instead of Teenage-wizard-moon-boy/girl/both.

[KXZ501]

*snip*

 

"Rump roasted", eh?

 

Well, at least I know what I'm dealing with here.

 

Anyway, it seems you've misinterpreted what I was getting at earlier. So, let's go through this, why don't we?

 

Whatever your level of denial over the fact that your character isn't the suit, but the human, it wont matter worth a lick of salt now that DE has set things in that direction.

 

At no point was I 'in denial' about now being just the suit, because I was never in that frame of mind to begin with. As I'd said before, I was perfectly fine with the theory of 'one tenno linked to many warframes'.

 

What I am not happy about is how DE executed it, with my initial reasoning for this located in my earlier posts.

 

However, while at first the majority of my issue was to do with the in-game visual representation of the us, the players, and our Tenno characters, I realise upon further reflection that it's not just how DE have chosen to portray us/the Tenno, but also the complete lack of any meaningful player choice or interaction in how we, as in the protagonist characters, react to this world-altering revelation, and in turn the potential implications of this for any future lore/story-driven events further down the line.

 

Furthermore, it also leads into the following:

 

For the record, earlier you insinuate I put words into your mouth. You are incorrect. I simply pointed out the events which took place in the final scenes of the quest. You, as in the main character, adapted instead of going mad.

 

This is where we'll have to disagree. You say that we, as in the player character, adapted to this new revelation and accepted the new 'truth' presented to us by the lotus, instead of snapping or going mad with grief/rage/denial/etc.

 

Well, I can tell you that sure as hell isn't what I saw, because again, I never accepted anything.

 

From where I'm standing, what actually happened was that this newly introduced player-expy just upped and accepted this sudden turn of events, and bought Lotus' BS about deceiving me 'for my own good', on my behalf, in my place, and while wearing my identity like some kind of fake skin - and that's what really gets at me.

 

You see, if the child is indeed meant to be 'us' - and therefore, we are in-turn expected to identify with/as the child - then why exactly were we, as the player/protagonist character, given no choice or option as to how to react to this revelation, other than that of blind acceptance?

 

Because let me tell you, if that child was supposed to represent 'Me' sitting there in that chair, at that moment, the first thing I would have done would have been to lose the plot with Lotus and start demanding she tell me what the hell was going on.

 

Also, if the child is, again, meant to be/represent 'Me', then where was my option to tell Lotus to piss off and get the hell off of my ship/out of my sight, because that's basically how I would have reacted once told I'd been outright lied to this entire time, and by the very person supposedly helping, guiding, and looking out for me all the while. The same goes for Lotus' "space mom" BS too, while we're at it, because no way in hell would I accept someone like her as any kind of mother figure, after the kind of deception she pulled on me.

 

Hell, I'd likely have gone as far as to order ordis to cut all contact with Lotus, gone rogue, and start working on building my own web of contacts to keep in the know with what's going on around the system. I mean, we as the player/protagonist are basically self-sufficient at this point, and it's not like we're short on allies (Darvo, Teshin, The Syndicates, etc).

 

But no - instead, DE basically told us 'this is who you really are, and this is how you reacted'.

 

And for a game where we are supposed to be the main character, and where we'd been given options in the past as to how to approach events where player choice was a thing (see: Gravidus and Tubemen), we were effectively robbed of any agency or choice as players/protagonists at that very moment - the same moment which, for me, was when my connection to the game, and any attachment to my in-game identity, was pretty much obliterated.

 

Hell, if that's how DE planned things to be all this time, why were we even given any freedom of choice in those previous instances where we could choose what we did, like Gravidus and Tubemen. Why didn't they just tell us 'this is who you fought for/against' at those times?

 

So to reiterate - no, I did not accept anything to do with that situation.

 

Any acceptance was clearly done outside of any input, control, or decision of my own, by something merely imitating me - and doing an immensely poor job of it, at that.

Edited December 10, 2015 by KXZ501

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

When my Valk puts a Gem into her forehead and calls herself Vision, I go and give you a warning.

Why is this not a thing? I want this. As horrible as the story reveal is, I want this.

[StabbyTentacles]

So to reiterate - no, I did not accept anything to do with that situation.

 

Any acceptance was clearly done outside of any input, control, or decision of my own, by something merely imitating me - and doing an immensely poor job of it, at that.

And here lies much of the rub.

Opposition.

Some/Maybe even many loved having all choice in the matter removed. With the following tenno chair > warframe deal being ‘gifted’ them.

Some/Maybe even many did not love having all choice in the matter removed. With the following tenno chair > warframe deal being ‘gifted’ them.

[Apocalomnomnom]

I agree...

that pink rhino tricked out with the Limbo agile animations is being controlled by a child with about as much personality as a cardboard cut out of Commander Shepherd.

All that ability to customize your warframes - pointless.

 

I miss my PTSD Excalibur that protected his kin perhaps a little too much.

I miss my schizophrenic Loki that is afraid of the dark.

I miss my detective sleuth Limbo with his trusty kubrow companion.

I had a frickin' character for everyframe I took on...and now they all just seem the same

Good bye originality...Hello Mass Effect 

 

I wish I hadn't played the quest now, honestly. Back then, Warframe was free to be what ever my imagination could create. Even when DE went on record saying it was one person controlling multiple frames, I was free to fill that person with what ever personality I could choose. Now, I'm forced to think differently knowing how cookie cutter my Tenno is. Yeah, you could say I could give personality to my pet rock but I can't really find the motivation to do so after that little encounter with the Lotus.

 

*sigh*
Okay, my rage post is done. Honestly, I think I need a break from this game. It shattered my imagination as well as my motivation to do anything in it.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Apocalomnomnom

[jfhsanseiIII]

If i remember correctly we've known for a while that a single entity controls the suits. Also, it's a major lore point for the game, I don't think it stymied the imagination of all the player base. For me it kind of opened up the possibilities. There's a bit more direction but many more possibilities available now. It just depends on how DEvdecides to move from here. They could make it a very compelling narrative or muck it up entirely. So far I've quite enjoyed it.

[Agentcheese]

"Rump roasted", eh?

 

Well, at least I know what I'm dealing with here.

 

Anyway, it seems you've misinterpreted what I was getting at earlier. So, let's go through this, why don't we?

 

 

 

At no point was I 'in denial' about now being just the suit, because I was never in that frame of mind to begin with. As I'd said before, I was perfectly fine with the theory of 'one tenno linked to many warframes'.

 

What I am not happy about is how DE executed it, with my initial reasoning for this located in my earlier posts.

 

However, while at first the majority of my issue was to do with the in-game visual representation of the us, the players, and our Tenno characters, I realise upon further reflection that it's not just how DE have chosen to portray us/the Tenno, but also the complete lack of any meaningful player choice or interaction in how we, as in the protagonist characters, react to this world-altering revelation, and in turn the potential implications of this for any future lore/story-driven events further down the line.

 

Furthermore, it also leads into the following:

 

 

 

This is where we'll have to disagree. You say that we, as in the player character, adapted to this new revelation and accepted the new 'truth' presented to us by the lotus, instead of snapping or going mad with grief/rage/denial/etc.

 

Well, I can tell you that sure as hell isn't what I saw, because again, I never accepted anything.

 

From where I'm standing, what actually happened was that this newly introduced player-expy just upped and accepted this sudden turn of events, and bought Lotus' BS about deceiving me 'for my own good', on my behalf, in my place, and while wearing my identity like some kind of fake skin - and that's what really gets at me.

 

You see, if the child is indeed meant to be 'us' - and therefore, we are in-turn expected to identify with/as the child - then why exactly were we, as the player/protagonist character, given no choice or option as to how to react to this revelation, other than that of blind acceptance?

 

Because let me tell you, if that child was supposed to represent 'Me' sitting there in that chair, at that moment, the first thing I would have done would have been to lose the plot with Lotus and start demanding she tell me what the hell was going on.

 

Also, if the child is, again, meant to be/represent 'Me', then where was my option to tell Lotus to piss off and get the hell off of my ship/out of my sight, because that's basically how I would have reacted once told I'd been outright lied to this entire time, and by the very person supposedly helping, guiding, and looking out for me all the while. The same goes for Lotus' "space mom" BS too, while we're at it, because no way in hell would I accept someone like her as any kind of mother figure, after the kind of deception she pulled on me.

 

Hell, I'd likely have gone as far as to order ordis to cut all contact with Lotus, gone rogue, and start working on building my own web of contacts to keep in the know with what's going on around the system. I mean, we as the player/protagonist are basically self-sufficient at this point, and it's not like we're short on allies (Darvo, Teshin, The Syndicates, etc).

 

But no - instead, DE basically told us 'this is who you really are, and this is how you reacted'.

 

And for a game where we are supposed to be the main character, and where we'd been given options in the past as to how to approach events where player choice was a thing (see: Gravidus and Tubemen), we were effectively robbed of any agency or choice as players/protagonists at that very moment - the same moment which, for me, was when my connection to the game, and any attachment to my in-game identity, was pretty much obliterated.

 

Hell, if that's how DE planned things to be all this time, why were we even given any freedom of choice in those previous instances where we could choose what we did, like Gravidus and Tubemen. Why didn't they just tell us 'this is who you fought for/against' at those times?

 

So to reiterate - no, I did not accept anything to do with that situation.

 

Any acceptance was clearly done outside of any input, control, or decision of my own, by something merely imitating me - and doing an immensely poor job of it, at that.

I feel exactly the same about this. I  would have gone rouge a lot earlier though.

 

right after 2 months of playing the game I  already didn't trust the lotus.

 

mass murder of people who have done nothing wrong (in my opinion) like the corpus that are killed daily are not a good way of keeping the balance.

[SilentMobius]

Well, I can tell you that sure as hell isn't what I saw, because again, I never accepted anything.

 

From where I'm standing, what actually happened was that this newly introduced player-expy just upped and accepted this sudden turn of events, and bought Lotus' BS about deceiving me 'for my own good', on my behalf, in my place, and while wearing my identity like some kind of fake skin - and that's what really gets at me.

 

You see, if the child is indeed meant to be 'us' - and therefore, we are in-turn expected to identify with/as the child - then why exactly were we, as the player/protagonist character, given no choice or option as to how to react to this revelation, other than that of blind acceptance?

 

Because let me tell you, if that child was supposed to represent 'Me' sitting there in that chair, at that moment, the first thing I would have done would have been to lose the plot with Lotus and start demanding she tell me what the hell was going on.

 

Also, if the child is, again, meant to be/represent 'Me', then where was my option to tell Lotus to piss off and get the hell off of my ship/out of my sight, because that's basically how I would have reacted once told I'd been outright lied to this entire time, and by the very person supposedly helping, guiding, and looking out for me all the while. The same goes for Lotus' "space mom" BS too, while we're at it, because no way in hell would I accept someone like her as any kind of mother figure, after the kind of deception she pulled on me.

 

Doesn't matter if you accepted it or not, that's what had to happen, you can't kick the Lotus of the ship because the Lotus voice is everywhere in the game and DE couldn't redo all that VO work just to give you a fake choice. So if you wan't that, tough, you might as well want the game to spit gold coins out of the screen, it's just not a realistic want.

 

Oddly enough (like pretty much any other game) your choices are limited to what is sensibly possible for the devs to produce. Hence the Second dream can't result in a complete change in gameplay, nor a complete change in VO, not a rejection of any of the tenets of the game already established.

Maybe they could have has a "I'm not happy with you" answer to the questions. Sure, but there were a _lot_ of things they could have done with those questions, what they wanted to do was introduce the focus system, so that's all that was done so far. Regardless, at the end of the chat things would be the same.

[Agentcheese]

Doesn't matter if you accepted it or not, that's what had to happen, you can't kick the Lotus of the ship because the Lotus voice is everywhere in the game and DE couldn't redo all that VO work just to give you a fake choice. So if you wan't that, tough, you might as well want the game to spit gold coins out of the screen, it's just not a realistic want.

 

 

that wouldn't have to happen though. rather then recording new lines for someone like teshin or darvo to guide you, you could have no lines or pop ups at all. 

 

if the player already knows how the objectives in a mission work then the voice lines aren't needed to tell them what to do anymore.

 

it could even make sense in a lore perspective as well. other factions like the grineer could be paying you when you sabotage corpus stuff and the other way around. 

 

and just about nobody likes the infested.

[Kai_Shiba]

and just about nobody likes the infested.

Hush you! I would pet a charger anyday!

[KXZ501]

Doesn't matter if you accepted it or not, that's what had to happen, you can't kick the Lotus of the ship because the Lotus voice is everywhere in the game and DE couldn't redo all that VO work just to give you a fake choice. So if you wan't that, tough, you might as well want the game to spit gold coins out of the screen, it's just not a realistic want.

 

Oddly enough (like pretty much any other game) your choices are limited to what is sensibly possible for the devs to produce. Hence the Second dream can't result in a complete change in gameplay, nor a complete change in VO, not a rejection of any of the tenets of the game already established.

Maybe they could have has a "I'm not happy with you" answer to the questions. Sure, but there were a _lot_ of things they could have done with those questions, what they wanted to do was introduce the focus system, so that's all that was done so far. Regardless, at the end of the chat things would be the same.

 

Okay, seriously - is it the way I word my posts or something?

 

Let's get something straight before we go any further: I am NOT saying that DE should have done any of what I mentioned in my previous post, nor was I saying that's what I wanted them to do, nor am I demanding they change anything. Anyone with even half a brain should realise that, given the way they executed the reveal in Second Dream, it would be far too complicated to change what's been done - lore-wise, at least - without having to re-write/re-work huge parts of the update, and as such would simply not be feasible.

 

What I AM saying - again, at that - is that since DE intend for the child to represent us, player/protagonist - and therefore we are expected to identify with/as the child - then my own reaction would have been far different to what we were presented with, if I am truly to believe that I'm the one sitting there in that chair, conversing with Lotus. As such, the lack of any real alternative to watching this supposed expy of myself meekly going along with whatever Lotus told them was infuriating to a degree I've not experienced in a video game, outside of a few select instances completely unrelated to Warframe.

 

It was meant to be an example of just how disconnected I, as the player, felt from this new character that is in fact meant to my "true" in-game self - which, upon further reflection of how Second Dream played out, is probably the main thing that broke whatever connection/attachment I had to my in-game self (which up until this point was, for all intents, the warframes themselves and the until-recently unknown entity controlling them), along with, to a lesser degree, the physical appearance and seeming personality of this child that is meant to be 'Me'.

Edited December 11, 2015 by KXZ501

[Kai_Shiba]

Okay, seriously - is it the way I word my posts or something?

 

Let's get something straight before we go any further: I am NOT saying that DE should have done any of what I mentioned in my previous post, nor was I saying that's what I wanted them to do, nor am I demanding they change anything. Anyone with even half a brain should realise that, given the way they executed the reveal in Second Dream, it would be far too complicated to change what's been done - lore-wise, at least - without having to re-write/re-work huge parts of the update, and as such would simply not be feasible.

 

What I AM saying - again, at that - is that since DE intend for the child to represent us, player/protagonist - and therefore we are expected to identify with/as the child - then my own reaction would have been far different to what we were presented with, if I am truly to believe that I'm the one sitting there in that chair, conversing with Lotus. As such, the lack of any real alternative to watching this supposed expy of myself meekly going along with whatever Lotus told them was infuriating to a degree I've not experienced in a video game, outside of a few select instances completely unrelated to Warframe.

 

It was meant to be an example of just how disconnected I, as the player, felt from this new character that is in fact meant to my "true" in-game self - which, upon further reflection of how Second Dream played out, is probably the main thing that broke whatever connection/attachment I had to my in-game self (which up until this point was, for all intents, the warframes themselves and the until-recently unknown entity controlling them), along with, to a lesser degree, the physical appearance and seeming personality of this child that is meant to be 'Me'.

So if DE. Let's say, were to release more and or changes the voicelines to be a lot better, which I know DE would do(choice of aggressive, passive, cocky) and better customization choices as in helmets, masks, goggles etc

Things would be better for you?

[Omnimorph]

 

But no - instead, DE basically told us 'this is who you really are, and this is how you reacted'.

 

 

 

But that's kind of how it's going to be with any kind of story.  With a story, there are things done, and automatically thereby some other things are foregone, just like when you buy something with money, that money is no longer available for the other things you could have bought.

 

There's only so much elbow room the devs can give you if they have a story they want to tell (which of course is also guided by "devious" motives like making the game attractive to truly vast numbers of Chinese teenagers - but that sort of thing just comes with the territory :) )

 

I do understand your point though, that kind of option and choice at that point would have been nice to have.  But I don't think it's realistic to expect that they could or would have given it.

 

Just a gentle reminder though - the thing in the chair isn't necessarily a child literally, i.e. DE isn't forcing you to rp a child.  In that sense, what they've done is quite open.  IOW, they've tried to cover all their bases.  They've provided more adult players with something that they can project an adult personality into, but they've also made it young looking and given the emotionally charged "motherly" thing from the Lotus.  i.e., the aforementioned Chinese teenager could easily just rp a childlike personality if they wanted to (and as some of the in-game Tenno VO unfortunately - from my point of view - suggests).  But you're not forced to that, you can imbue the thing in the chair with whatever personality you want, and it can even be your own personality.

 

And that's a fact.

 

(But we've already had a big exchange around that, so as I say, just a gentle reminder.)

Edited December 11, 2015 by Omnimorph

[Morec0]

I don't like what we got, I don't think it adds up or is particularly interesting, but ruined? I wouldn't agree with that sentiment at all.

 

Still... I REALLY hope DE doesn't try to make things too... bright and cheerful with this. I hope we can get back to the Grineer being monstrous and the Corpus greedily looking to bite into anything they can chew profits out of no matter who gets hurt along the way. Hell, more from the Infested would be nice too.

 

It's a rated M game but, honestly, it feels like it should be rated T.

 

 

Just a gentle reminder though - the thing in the chair isn't necessarily a child literally, i.e. DE isn't forcing you to rp a child.  In that sense, what they've done is quite open.  IOW, they've tried to cover all their bases.  They've provided more adult players with something that they can project an adult personality into, but they've also made it young looking and given the emotionally charged "motherly" thing from the Lotus.  i.e., the aforementioned Chinese teenager could easily just rp a childlike personality if they wanted to (and as some of the in-game Tenno VO unfortunately - from my point of view - suggests).  But you're not forced to that, you can imbue the thing in the chair with whatever personality you want, and it can even be your own personality.

 

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh, yeah, no, with how the Tenno act talk and react I don't really see most adult being able to project themselves into that - I mean, unless they're THAT kind of person that pines for their childhood. There's just not anything particularly MATURE about the Tenno, and that's one of the things that bugs me about it - looking like kids? Fine. But acting like kids? Talking like kids? They just don't act like the kind of people that MADE those schools, those trials. They don't even act like they've been changed by anything they've gone through - and that was A LOT of fighting they've gone through.

 

All in all, I think DE took it one step too far with the customization - it's cool, don't get me wrong, but when we had our reveal of us being physical beings piloting the Warframes from afar we really should have just STOPPED there and never got a look at what was underneath. Leave what the Tenno's body looks like, from age to potential damage by the Void, COMPLETELY up to the player and not try shoehorn everyone into a poorly done child-soldier element.

 

But, that's just me.