Has Warframe Been Ruined By The Update 18 Reveal? [Spoiler City.]

[Blatantfool]

So, because I haven't been roleplaying prior to this update, I don't get to voice my issues with the fact that I'm now basically expected to identify as this child-thing that's been foisted upon me?

 

Is that it? Is that what you're saying?

 

Because that's pretty much what it sounds like you're saying, and imo, that's a pretty insulting standpoint to take.

 

I don't appreciate the insinuation about my intelligence, either.

 

 If you are that rump roasted about the story, ignore it.

 

 But remember that many gameplay systems will likely be story reliant. Do so at your own peril.

 

 Whatever your level of denial over the fact that your character isn't the suit, but the human, it wont matter worth a lick of salt now that DE has set things in that direction.

 

 For the record - I was hoping originally we were a clone army wearing the suits. Kinda sucks my old fan theory was off-base, but I think the Demigod children angle is neat. Kinda JRPG actually, which isn't a bad thing. It's a real laugh now but about six months ago I made a crappy joke thread titled 'Tube Loli Theory', which was just me teasing lore threads by spoofing them and insisting the Tenno were all little girls in suits. Turns out, I'm actually a Loremaster.

 

 Edit: For the record, earlier you insinuate I put words into your mouth. You are incorrect. I simply pointed out the events which took place in the final scenes of the quest. You, as in the main character, adapted instead of going mad. You, as in the Operator, were saved as your Frame moved to protect you on it's own. There is a tinge of humor to the fact that there is so much rage about us not actually being just the Warframe, since the Warframe wanted to protect the Operator too.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Blatantfool

[SilentMobius]

You, as in the Operator, were saved as your Frame moved to protect you on it's own.

 

That is very much yet to be determined. I'd suggest that, given we have explicit evidence that the Zariman children can control entities remotely without transference tech (Rhino Prime Codex) and that DE took time out in the Codex to point that out to us. That the culmination of the Second Dream was our Operator doing just that, making a herculean effort and controlling the Warframe from a distance for just long enough to save their own life.

 

I think it's a mistake to assume independent Warframe activity on the strength of that one assumption alone, without clarification on how we were supposed to take that scene. And an even larger mistake to state it as some kind of fact.

Edited December 9, 2015 by SilentMobius

[VoidNomade]

That is very much yet to be determined. I'd suggest that, given we have explicit evidence that the Zariman children can control entities remotely without transference tech (Rhino Prime Codex) and that DE took time out in the Codex to point that out to us. That the culmination of the Second Dream was our Operator doing just that, making a herculean effort and controlling the Warframe from a distance for just long enough to save their own life.

 

I think it's a mistake to assume independent Warframe activity on the strength of that one assumption alone, without clarification on how we were supposed to take that scene. And an even larger mistake to state it as some kind of fact.

 

That a tenno controlled a rhino frame isn´t confirmed in any sentence in the codex, just assumptions on either side.

 

The scene where our frame moved must be viewed with the following in mind:

-the surprise of hunhow in this scene means two things:

a) he is surprised that the operator can control the frame over that distance without a transference device

b) he is surprised that the frame move from itself

 

none of that theories though is confirmed.

 

I want and do strongly believe that the frame from itself moved. It would open up some nice story possibilities for the future, that the frame and the operator are two life forms forming a symbiotic powerhouse in the future instead of just a puppeteer moving his manikin.

 

I want to belive that and i still have the infested in mind that are saying they´re the same flesh.

 

Maybe not only the operator awoke from the dream but also the warframe.

[worminthewood]

That a tenno controlled a rhino frame isn´t confirmed in any sentence in the codex, just assumptions on either side.

 

The scene where our frame moved must be viewed with the following in mind:

-the surprise of hunhow in this scene means two things:

a) he is surprised that the operator can control the frame over that distance without a transference device

b) he is surprised that the frame move from itself

 

none of that theories though is confirmed.

 

I want and do strongly believe that the frame from itself moved. It would open up some nice story possibilities for the future, that the frame and the operator are two life forms forming a symbiotic powerhouse in the future instead of just a puppeteer moving his manikin.

 

I want to belive that and i still have the infested in mind that are saying they´re the same flesh.

 

Maybe not only the operator awoke from the dream but also the warframe.

This Tenno has the right setting.

It opens up debate, and a possible expanded storyline for the Stalker.

Does this frame 'operate' on his own, through grief and / or despair?

Or did the Stalker and his / her Operator somehow melt together,

becoming one mind, one body?

Or does his / her Tenno no longer know he is an Operator, a human being,

and truly believes he is 'only' a frame?

[worminthewood]

Also, when the WarFrames turned on the Orikin, their creators.
did Lotus / Natah take over the Frames or just sever the link between the Tenno and the Frames - and
no longer bound by honor, they destoyed their creators (DE using a lot of Greece Mythology and all).

[Blatantfool]

 It is my personal opinion that Rhino Prime's Codex is referring to a Rhino Frame that did not have an Operator at the time. Why do I think this?

 

 I'll be perfectly honest - it's because I think it's more interesting that way. The idea of both the Operator and the Warframe turning out to be unique beings living a symbiotic life together? Awesome.

 

 

 However it is a distinct and likely possibility that the Rhino Prime codex does refer to an Operator controlled Rhino Prime who broke free during the early stages of the Orokin Transference experimentation and ran amok.

[Shinigami_Greed]

 If you are that rump roasted about the story, ignore it.

 

 But remember that many gameplay systems will likely be story reliant. Do so at your own peril.

 

 Whatever your level of denial over the fact that your character isn't the suit, but the human, it wont matter worth a lick of salt now that DE has set things in that direction.

 

 For the record - I was hoping originally we were a clone army wearing the suits. Kinda sucks my old fan theory was off-base, but I think the Demigod children angle is neat. Kinda JRPG actually, which isn't a bad thing. It's a real laugh now but about six months ago I made a crappy joke thread titled 'Tube Loli Theory', which was just me teasing lore threads by spoofing them and insisting the Tenno were all little girls in suits. Turns out, I'm actually a Loremaster.

 

 Edit: For the record, earlier you insinuate I put words into your mouth. You are incorrect. I simply pointed out the events which took place in the final scenes of the quest. You, as in the main character, adapted instead of going mad. You, as in the Operator, were saved as your Frame moved to protect you on it's own. There is a tinge of humor to the fact that there is so much rage about us not actually being just the Warframe, since the Warframe wanted to protect the Operator too.

 

You know, in a board of people crying about their immersion being broken, their headcanons being shattered, and people begging DE to revert their lore changes (Those last ones are terrible people mind you.), I i have to say, I want to hug you right now for how hilariously on base you are with that. 

 

10/10

[(XBOX)The Greedy Milk]

its just like if you find a baby at your doorstep, you got to bring him/her in and depending on the person who took him/her up, you cant decide whether you keep the baby or not. want to know who the baby represents? the operator.

[UrielColtan]

 If you are that rump roasted about the story, ignore it.

 

 

. Maybe you should take your own advice and ignore them if you can't stand that they dislike it.

And way to be inflammatory, moderator.

Edited December 9, 2015 by UrielColtan

[Omnimorph]

 It is my personal opinion that Rhino Prime's Codex is referring to a Rhino Frame that did not have an Operator at the time. Why do I think this?

 

 I'll be perfectly honest - it's because I think it's more interesting that way. The idea of both the Operator and the Warframe turning out to be unique beings living a symbiotic life together? Awesome.

 

 

 However it is a distinct and likely possibility that the Rhino Prime codex does refer to an Operator controlled Rhino Prime who broke free during the early stages of the Orokin Transference experimentation and ran amok.

 

Yeah, it's pretty sure that the "beast" in the RPC isn't yet a Rhino - it might not even be a proto-warframe yet, although the fact that it has metal claws is suggestive of some sort of construct.

 

The most likely scenario IMHO is that Lua is the site of some remnants of experimentation in various areas.  Like, here in this part of the complex,that old Zariman project, the kids are on ice; meanwhile in another part of the complex, they're still pursuing techno-organic golem solutions of various kinds - creating things,cutting them up, re-creating them, etc.  The "beast" clearly has some kind of very rudimentary sentience on its own, but it's pretty much a "mindless brute".

 

It's only when the 2 scientists get close to the Zariman "morgue" (a move probably instigated by David, because he wants to see what happens - like, maybe he was aware of Margulis' research and was both curious - and desperate - to see if it might work) that we see what is, in effect, the first apparent "proof of concept" of what Margulis believed, that the Zariman kids could "live in" a techno-organic construct.

 

It's pretty clear to me that the reaction of the "beast" when it's stunned into stillness, is precisely the shock of the one of the Zariman kids "coming to" in the body of the golem.

 

So yeah, all that basically supports:-

 

1) limited range control without the somatic link paraphernalia, so re. the War-breaking incident, sadly it's probably a last ditch attempt by the Tenno being strangled, to grab enough control of the warframe at a distance that it could break War.  (Limited range because it seems that control is only established when the "beast" gets close enough to the Zariman cells.)

 

2) It also does support the possibility of limited sentience in at least these early forms of techno-organic construct (which presumably eventually are worked up into warframes proper).  So there's some kind of headroom for development there.

 

But if this latter aspect of the lore is developed, or maybe if we later have some sort of civil war ("war within") situation between Tenno and warframes in the future, I don't expect the scenario to have been that of a "fall" from a previous high level of sentience, bur rather a growing, building sentience, maybe jogged along by some kind of external interference.  (Note though, that "war within" may merely mean "inner struggle" to perfect oneself.)

Edited December 9, 2015 by Omnimorph

[(XBOX)The Greedy Milk]

also add a mute button to the operator, hes getting as annoying as ordis and i respect the operator

[Blatantfool]

also add a mute button to the operator, hes getting as annoying as ordis and i respect the operator

 

 Check your Options menu. There IS a toggle.

[SugarShow]

I wanted to know if the operator that we get is male or female or have random gender??

[LunarTemplar]

Sigh.

Go throw your own personal tantrum elsewhere, or avoid a web site / post if you can’t; demanding other’s leave because they don’t share your opinions is a little childish/infantile, I trust you can grasp that?

Apparently not.

You’re done.

 

Oh, no, I get it. But you don't seem to grasp that I don't care, and your not worth me caring enough to pretend I do.

 

Your just another whiner on the forum of a game to me, and I've dealt with far to many like you to display anything other then tired contempt for I have people who do nothing but *@##$ but then offer nothing valuable to fix what caused the hissy fit to begin with.

 

Not that you could do anything about it in this case even if you do provide some constructive input. Best case would be them fixing the broken Focus's but they and the Operator are here to stay. Get Used To It.

Edited December 9, 2015 by LunarTemplar

[PixalatedVortex]

Just kind of reminds of the movie Avatar to be honest, you sort of become the frame

[StabbyTentacles]

Oh, no, I get it. But you don't seem to grasp that I don't care, and your not worth me caring enough to pretend I do.

 

Your just another whiner on the forum of a game to me, and I've dealt with far to many like you to display anything other then tired contempt for I have people who do nothing but *@##$ but then offer nothing valuable to fix what caused the hissy fit to begin with.

 

Not that you could do anything about it in this case even if you do provide some constructive input. Best case would be them fixing the broken Focus's but they and the Operator are here to stay. Get Used To It.

TLDR

[PixalatedVortex]

If that was too long for you I pity you  

[SilentMobius]

That a tenno controlled a rhino frame isn´t confirmed in any sentence in the codex, just assumptions on either side.

 

The scene where our frame moved must be viewed with the following in mind:

-the surprise of hunhow in this scene means two things:

a) he is surprised that the operator can control the frame over that distance without a transference device

b) he is surprised that the frame move from itself

 

none of that theories though is confirmed.

 

I disagree, 

 

Firstly I didn't say "Rhino Frame" I said "entity", that event must be assumed to be pre-transference (As it appears to be detailing the first pre-transference event) hence pre-Warframes as-we-know-them. Whatever it is (most likely IMHO just another Technocyte monster) It was stopped in proximity of the Zariman Children, using precisely the same visual device as used in the Second Dream (Looking at hands) there is no other conclusion as to what is going on here that requires less additional assumptions. Hence it is the default assumption.

 

Secondly. We are in the throws right now of many players being very unhappy that their established theories and headcanon are being shown to be in error. So I think it behooves us all to maybe be a little more careful about making assumptions and running with them.

 

I'm not saying that "Warframe are definitely not self-motive" I'm saying that "The default assumption should not currently be that Warframes are in any way sapient nor self-motive"

 

The idea of Sapient Warframes is one that the game could well progress toward (I very much doubt it, but I'm open to the idea) but I think those starting with that heavy assumption (or worse, stating outright it's true) and running from there are doing themselves and all the players that read what they've written (and run with it, forming their own headcanon with these purported "facts") a notable disservice.

 

What I'm suggesting is that when we make assumptions we make it clear. Don't do this:

 

"The Warframe moved by itself in the Second Dream so I think...."

 

instead I suggest:

 

"If the Warframe moved by itself in the Second Dream then maybe"

 

This way we minimize the amount of new upset players we produce from speculation

Edited December 10, 2015 by SilentMobius

[StabbyTentacles]

If that was too long for you I pity you  

If responding to every personal attack is your thing, I laff at you. I laff. @u

[(XBOX)The Greedy Milk]

 Check your Options menu. There IS a toggle.

 

notice im an xbox player, we aint got u18 yet but from the videos ive seen, no one has muted the op yet

[VoidNomade]

-snip-

 

I won´t talk about the rhino codex. It´s the worst written codex entry from them all. Too many assumptions for both sides and talking about a "default assumption" is just not a time worthy discussion in the beginning because that´s a subjective viewpoint in my opinion and nothing you may say will change that. Just one thing, there´s no line where it´s clear what´s really happing. All you´re using are assumptions, default or not lol. So in fact, both theories are still intact.

[VampirePirate]

@Stabby Tentacles

 

The info in U18 has been known since the game first came out.  There have been many hints to the facts and truths we know now.   Everyone screams "spoiler" but there really is no surprise.  Nothing here is new except that dark guy that keeps trying to kill us.

 

You name something you think is new (lore-wise) in U18, and I bet you someone will come along and provide info that was here since the beginning.  I think what the problem is, is that many people here had other expectations and even a sense of self-entitlement to how the game should be, and U18 shut that down some.

 

If reading the codex and such, we all knew that the Tenno were void-twisted youngsters that empowered the warframes.  We just did not know the details of how exactly things were done.  Now we do know those details.  Well... some of them.

[Blatantfool]

notice im an xbox player, we aint got u18 yet but from the videos ive seen, no one has muted the op yet

 

 Glanced right over it, man. Answer certain questions enough and it gets set to autopilot.

[(XBOX)The Greedy Milk]

 Glanced right over it, man. Answer certain questions enough and it gets set to autopilot.

 

no worries, im a console player who knows too much!

[StonedMakak]

Perhaps I can provide a different viewpoint to the issue OP. Much like you, I didn't like the conclusion of the quest. It was beautifully directed though, full props to DE for that.

 

However, having middle-man in the mix was the disappointing part and took something away. But then I realized that if Warframes and Operators share a symbiotic relationship, and Warframes do indeed posses some consciousness (and it seems that they do), you can still identify with your chosen Warframe, and not the Operator. If that is the case, then it is a two-sided relationship in which you pick your preferred participant. None is superior to one another there are simply conduit and energy, useless without each other.

 

As in, you are the Warframe, the immensely powerful hybrid of infested organic matter and advanced robotics, however you need to feed on Void energy to function. That is provided by an Operator, who has the energy but is unable to harness it, and without you, he/she is largely defenseless (sans the occasional Super Sayian mode). If you choose to identify more with the Warframe (the conduit), the Operator (the energy) becomes just another handler, like the Lotus was pre-U18.

 

From that perspective the whole Second Dream quest looks entirely different. When I reach the Reservoir, I witnessed my Operator, that is to say the other part of my being, awaken and I fell to my knees as the connection was severed. The Operator crawled to me then, and gave me enough energy to carry him to safety.

 

And then, at the end of the quest the perspective is shifted to the Operator as he/she talks with Lotus. Both her and Ordis directly address you as the Operator on the Liset, but that only contributes to the duality of the being you are, as the Operator addresses the Warframe in mission. Some Inception level S#&$ here. You are both the Operator and the Warframe, the game gives you both perspectives to choose from, which is quite clever.

 

Or I'm just coming up with a very elaborated rationalization, so I don't have to deal with the thought of being a kid who spends far more time than he should, playing with fancy VR tech. Also, inb4 DE confirms that Warframes are just lifeless chunks of metal and flesh, and all of this goes down the S#&$ter anyway.