[Mega Spoilers] To Those Who Dislike Being ...

[Shinigami_Greed]

I think another thing people ignore and disregard that's incredibly important is that to our Tenno, everything before Second Dream was a vibrant dream to them.  They were completely unaware they were "dreaming"  and had come to believe it as well, given that it was actually happening.  They weren't stuck in a "lucid" dream, as so many like to think, because that implies they knew they were dreaming in the first place.  And then they wake up from that dream, and the fact that many of us are surprised they have so many childish responses is.... well, just weird to me.  

 

What do you feel like after having a vivid dream?  You feel out of place, disconnected.  Hell, if you were dreaming about something real, you wonder, for a moment, how you got back in your bed.  It's more than likely those hundreds to thousands of years of memories the Tenno all have are very much the same way.  The Tenno is unsure, speaking to the Lotus, like they're trying to remember.  In a very strange way, they're still the same children who were leaving for Tau.

[Jowain]

While you are of course completely free to take it that way, you do realize it's this very attitude you've chosen to take that's making the lore seem "pointless", right?

 

Some do actually play as the Operator now.  I do, and obviously others here do too.

 

And it's easy to do so, it's actually very easy to do so, the change between Warframe before the revelation and Warframe after is actually seamless if you follow the lore in the spirit it's given, which is that that thing in the chair is what you always were, you always were the Tenno, the Operator.

 

As Ordis kept telling you ;)

 

The lore IS pointless, I'm not viewing it from a lore perspective, I'm viewing it from a Gameplay perspective hence why the lore doesn't apply and in that perspective, when do you play as the Operator? Aside from the "power of Imaginaition"?

 

You NEVER control the Operator personally, I'm not playing as the Operator more than I am playing say Darvo for example. Just because the Lore is telling that it is so, in the gameplay it is not. The only time the Operator is useful is only when I feel the need to use their laser weapon attack and when the plot begins.

And when the plot ends, back into sitting in a chair, saying a line on during a mission and appearing out of thin air to shoot laserbeams. That's all there is!

 

When you're allowed to create your own character, customize them etc, then it is usually because you will be playing that character, you create them to have something that appeals to you for that is what you'll see for the rest of the game.

In an MMO it becomes even more important, this will be the character you present to other players, it is what they will see and recognize you through.

 

However the Operator will only be seen by you and will only appear when again, you use them to fire laserbeams. And don't talk about Screenshots, that's the same excuse as "But you're supposed to use your imagination to feel as this character".

 

This ISN'T a tabletop game, this isn't old school DnD, this is a Video Game, a visual medium. I shouldn't have to create a character that I then can do nothing with and then be told to "use my imagination" with. The imagination comes from DOING stuff with that character.

 

From a gameplay perspective, we ARE NOT the Operator, we ARE the Warframes, they have all the personality, interaction and emotes, the Operator don't. Then you can spew lore and story bits to the left and right, it doesn't change the fact that the game treats the Operator as a weapon, a tool to be used, so why the heck should I not give the same treatment? I don't play as them after all.

 

This is why the headcanon, Tenno wearing the Warframes as armor, works better, because everything from interaction to emotes is already done, all it would take is to add the heads to the models and you're set with everything else. Yes extra time in development, yes the daunting task of making the headmodel fit with every single frame, but at least it would make a large portion of the fanbase happy and the task of creating personal idles and emotes is already in place.

 

This only works in the lore for the time being, hence the Operator is just a plot device, in the game it's just another weapon to my WARFRAME'S arsenal.

 

P.S. And sure "b-b-but the Lore!", listen DE has a history with not sticking to their own Continuity many times before, I remember when Nova came out and it specifically mentioned that she was the creation of a Tenno Council, hence making her a Primed Warframe would not be possible.

But Nova is VERY popular.

 

Now we have Nova Prime running about and curiously, the Tenno Council that created her in the first place seem to be missing from normal Nova's Codex entry...

Edited December 11, 2015 by Jowain92

[Avrose]

The lore IS pointless, I'm not viewing it from a lore perspective, I'm viewing it from a Gameplay perspective hence why the lore doesn't apply and in that perspective, when do you play as the Operator? Aside from the "power of Imaginaition"?

 

You NEVER control the Operator personally, I'm not playing as the Operator more than I am playing say Darvo for example. Just because the Lore is telling that it is so, in the gameplay it is not. The only time the Operator is useful is only when I feel the need to use their laser weapon attack and when the plot begins.

And when the plot ends, back into sitting in a chair, saying a line on during a mission and appearing out of thin air to shoot laserbeams. That's all there is!

 

When you're allowed to create your own character, customize them etc, then it is usually because you will be playing that character, you create them to have something that appeals to you for that is what you'll see for the rest of the game.

In an MMO it becomes even more important, this will be the character you present to other players, it is what they will see and recognize you through.

 

However the Operator will only be seen by you and will only appear when again, you use them to fire laserbeams. And don't talk about Screenshots, that's the same excuse as "But you're supposed to use your imagination to feel as this character".

 

This ISN'T a tabletop game, this isn't old school DnD, this is a Video Game, a visual medium. I shouldn't have to create a character that I then can do nothing with and then be told to "use my imagination" with. The imagination comes from DOING stuff with that character.

 

From a gameplay perspective, we ARE NOT the Operator, we ARE the Warframes, they have all the personality, interaction and emotes, the Operator don't. Then you can spew lore and story bits to the left and right, it doesn't change the fact that the game treats the Operator as a weapon, a tool to be used, so why the heck should I not give the same treatment? I don't play as them after all.

 

This is why the headcanon, Tenno wearing the Warframes as armor, works better, because everything from interaction to emotes is already done, all it would take is to add the heads to the models and you're set with everything else. Yes extra time in development, yes the daunting task of making the headmodel fit with every single frame, but at least it would make a large portion of the fanbase happy and the task of creating personal idles and emotes is already in place.

 

This only works in the lore for the time being, hence the Operator is just a plot device, in the game it's just another weapon to my WARFRAME'S arsenal.

 

P.S. And sure "b-b-but the Lore!", listen DE has a history with not sticking to their own Continuity many times before, I remember when Nova came out and it specifically mentioned that she was the creation of a Tenno Council, hence making her a Primed Warframe would not be possible.

But Nova is VERY popular.

 

Now we have Nova Prime running about and curiously, the Tenno Council that created her in the first place seem to be missing from normal Nova's Codex entry...

Okay I have to use numbers to address all these points so hang in there with me.

 

1) Aside from the "power of Imaginaition" :

When you play a game regardless whether you consider yourself a RP'er you role play as your character. In universe you, the  operator was the consiness that direccted the Warframe. Now you see behind the curtain and its a kid, this moment and revalation is supposed to be a shock.

Also if you not playing with the power of imagination with some suspended disbelief in space travel cryostasis and mutated infested then not to be rude...

Why are you here?

 

2) You NEVER control the Operator personally:

I distinctly remember playing as the operator controlling the warframe via touch and using his own god like power to melt Sentinals. Before you go on a tangit about the Warframe still being played keep in mind you just got out of cryo stasis. What? You'er going to levitate your warframe, yourself and blast sentinals? I found the scene very touching showing the bond between.

 

3) When you're allowed to create your own character:

Agreed which is what made the "Luke I am your Father" moment by showing you who you really were the whole time all the better. What is so good about it is all the customization you done isnt undone, you still use the frame, you still use the same ship. Everything done up to this point doesnt fade away like a dream your just aware again.

 

4) This ISN'T a tabletop game, this isn't old school DnD, this is a Video Game:

Yes a game where you filled yourself with so much person Head Canon you left no room but what you expected to find on the moon.

 

5) From a gameplay perspective, we ARE NOT the Operator, we ARE the Warframes:

Not like 10 lines ago you were talking from "I'm not viewing it from a lore perspective" but now you are. From a lore point yes You Were, from a gameplay point you are correct except when you played as the opperator escaping then fighting past the Stalker.

 

6) This is why the headcanon, Tenno wearing the Warframes as armor, works better, because everything from interaction to emotes is already done:

Again Head Canon doesnt Canon make. It is an assuption on the part of the player until proven true or false by the devolper, who by the way owes you nothing in way of the story.

 

 

7) P.S. And sure "b-b-but the Lore!":

Yes the devolper can change the story how they see fit but to address that point Prime warframes were directly made by the Oroikin themselves. The Tenno created their own warframes when they rebelled and could not obtain more. With the destruction of the Orokin and all these void towers left to the Tenno there is no reason they cant spend the time and energy to devolp a propper Warframe.

 

*Avrose drops the mic*

Edited December 11, 2015 by Avrose

[GhostLacuna]

I am curious avrose are you a car in car games? a plane in a dog fighting game?

 

what are you in a RTS?

 

Since i doubt you get my point i make it clear.

 

There is no need to ever roleplay a character in a game at all.

 

You can play a game without ever having a character that you roleplay.

 

Do not state your own opinion on how you play as a fact.

 

I am getting quite tired of you and others stating opinions as fact.

 

You have no idea how i play nor do you know how any other member of this community play their game.

 

You quite frankly have no say in the matter.

 

No matter what you or anyone else say on these forums you do not decide what other players do in their own game. Nor do they decide how you play.

[Jowain]

 

-Snip-

 

I'll make one last try, but I feel a headache coming on, too many trained seals in the room clapping simultainously. And I'll start with a few questions and you try to answer them from the perspective of a GAMER, not a bookworm:

 

If you ignore the lore, the story does not matter, what purpose does the Operator serve?

 

Answering: "They serve as a connection between us and the Warframe and gives them power!" is based on the Lore and what DE tells you. That is wrong.

 

What is the point of having a character who's appearance and outfit you can change, but who will only be seen in detail by you?

 

Answering: "Because DE want us to bond with the Operator by freely customzing them!" Is wrong, because only you can see those changes, no one else.

 

What is the use of giving them a select voice, if that voice will only be heard in full by you?

 

Answering: "Because they wanted us to see ourselves in the missions and when summoning them!" Is also wrong, because they only talk to you and their time present attacking is brief and other players won't get a chance to look at them.

 

I am not against these changes, however I look at this and I see yet another "cool shiney thing" that DE added without any extra meat on it, they tried to explain it as best as they could from a Lore perspective, but it falls short when you realize that all this "Real You" will ever do is to be still in that chair and not really do anything else.

 

I fear that they will do what they did with the Syndicates and Archwing mode, add it, tweak and then leave it to gather dust before returning to it.

They've just turned the people who RP'd yadda yadda yadda and so forth, upside down, the least they could do was add more in the ways of customization and some form of movement.

 

This is a goddamn game that takes place in space isn't it? Cruches, leg prophetics anything to actually let the player walk around as the Operator.

The bond between the Operator and Warframe? How about the bond between the player and the Operator?

The bond I have I have for my Warframes, because I played as them for hours, I grinded for them, I made them stronger through playing the game.

The Operator was thrown at me from nowhere, serving no other purpose to the game than to be a part of their Focus System and I am told to like it?

 

Here everyone talks about the lore left and the lore right and no one seems to point out that if you don't care about the lore, the Operator really don't have a true purpose or reasoning to even be present in the game at all, like I've been trying to tell everyone: They're just another collected weapon!

 

I want to like these Operators, I want to feel like this is my character. But I will only truly feel that way if I am allowed to walk around as the Operator, interact with other players, show them "This is my Operator, cool right?".

 

If DE in the near future allows further customization of the Operator and the option to do all the Social Warframe related things (Dojo, Relay interactions) then I really don't have anything to complain about.

Right now however? No other purpose than to be upgraded and used as a weapon, the Warframe's are supposed to be the puppets, yet they're more alive than the actual living human beings!

Edited December 11, 2015 by Jowain92

[NaoeYamato]

I agree with some people's thoughts that there should definitely be more cosmetic options for your avatar. 
The other thing bothering me is that I have a male user IGN, but my avatar is a chick... LMAO

[Avrose]

There is no need to ever roleplay a character in a game at all.

 

You can play a game without ever having a character that you roleplay.

 

I'm going to stop you right there and state point blank you missed the point of games period.

 

If you ignore the lore, the story does not matter, what purpose does the Operator serve?

 

You cant, you really cant.

[UrielColtan]

I can only say one thing to you UrielColtan, in the event you did not realize that you are on forums. The very second you post your opinion its not up to you what other people use that infomation. And forums in general is not for one to say their opinion and then leave without getting challenged (or in your event try to refuse the challenge of your opinion.) Sorry this is not how the world works, its not how forums work either.

"You are treading decades worth of a built up palette of exposure and preferences.

Do not impose yourself onto me and tell me what to like after a person has told you they are not interested in what you're selling."

Again this is not a one-way communication line at all. Its not your house where you can say what someone is allowed to say or not. If you dont like him talking to you and trying to change your opinion, do what everyone else would do, ignore him

"Do you fancy yourself an avant-garde modern day Socrates or something?"

First of how is this an insult? Second of, comparring to you he has thought about it alot more than you have (I am looking at the posts and his are clearly more filled with thought than yours are). And let me ask you, why the ad hominem attack instead of actually trying to refute what he says like you are in the next part?

Actually think about Valkyr, lore wise she was tortured over and over again, which changed her. (souce is the codex describtion as following: "Forged in the labs of the Zanuka project, the original Valkyr was subject to cruel experiments, leaving her scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing.")

I hypothesise that the Tenno Warframe have the "1-2-3-4" abillity from being a catalyst of the Tenno's powers, and now that the Tenno is closer to the warframe can "jump out" of the warframe and use the void power that the Tenno got from the Void Jump accident.

Now from that hypothesis Valkyr's powers changed with the unendning anger she feels towards her enemies that would cause her more harm. So my point? That the Tenno feels every ounce of pain the Warframe feels, and that in the event of the Warframe dying, the Tenno will too, and judging from your dismantlement of the revival mechanic,you think somewhat the same from that part.

Lorewise there might come quests which explains all of the PvP part of the game, this might just be a mechanic that we use the normal weapons. Here i would say that PvP would be considered a Trainning ground for Tenno to test their skills. Maybe it is a simulated world I could go on and on but this post is long enough as it is

Yes imposing ones will onto others is something a person can attempt and the responding person can rightfully tell you what I have been saying now in response. Because that's how the real world works. I'm not some computer simulation.

There is nothing to challenge here. I dislike something and you like it. Unless you want to get into long pointless internet arguments, then that's all that will be the result of attempting to point out how a persons entertainment preferences are "wrong", especially when they are not trying to make you like what they like. You also incline people to troll positive praise topics with such incentive. I'm all too used to public forums and the Internet, all too well and am long familiar with where this road leads. Some people don' t have that many hours in the day to waste.

Your Valkyr interpretation is just that, yours, her existence didn't establish anything about revives from a lore standpoint.

Tenno feeling all the pain of their frame also feels arbitrary to me, and that pain is trivialized by the lore behind Conclave. I don't like the whole surrogate concept either.

Edited December 12, 2015 by UrielColtan

[GhostLacuna]

I'm going to stop you right there and state point blank you missed the point of games period.

 

Right.

 

remote observer, audience, narrator  that is just 3 viewpoints in games that never need anyone to roleplay a game ever.

 

once again what you think or feel has zero affect on how i play my games.

 

if you want to maintain the viewpoint that you need to role play to get something out of games that is your decision.

 

I do not limit myself in that way.

[Avrose]

Right.

 

remote observer, audience, narrator  that is just 3 viewpoints in games that never need anyone to roleplay a game ever.

 

once again what you think or feel has zero affect on how i play my games.

 

if you want to maintain the viewpoint that you need to role play to get something out of games that is your decision.

 

I do not limit myself in that way.

 

Acctually I was looking at you the same way. What is the point of reading a book, watching a movie, playing a game if you dont seperate yourself from the world you in to be in a another for a few hours?

 

[Omnimorph]

I think it's clear that DE tries to accommodate as many points of view of "what the player is doing" as it can (it's just good business), and all the various desires and motivations players have jostle for position in terms of what the devs put their energies into (and this is often the main source of forum wars, with one camp thinking that attention to what would please the other camp is a "waste of resources").  One of the main divisions is between gameplay flow state immersion and immersion in the virtual world/story - those can lead to quite different design.

 

What the player "feels like" when they play the game is totally up them - whether they feel like they're just them sitting in a Herman Miller Aeron playing a game with cool graphics and some nice skill level and progression they can get involved in, whether they feel like they're a Tenno avataring a warframe, whether they feel like they're the warframe as a separate entity, with no Tenno involved, whether they're observing a story or living through a story, whatever. And any of those positions can be held either strongly and vehemently, or lightly and detachedly.

 

Only some of those are congruent with the lore, but the lore is there to be accepted or rejected.  It's a bit much to say "you don't know how to play videogames" if the person you're talking to just doesn't rp, even in the "lite" sense.  They may or may not know how to roleplay, but even that is purely the player's choice.

 

Also, I think it's a bit blurry even with any given player - they may feel sometimes more like they're the virtual character in the virtual world, and at other times a chump sitting in a chair giving money to developers because they're addicted. (This also speaks to the PvP thing - some PvP-ers' actions are directed at the entity sitting in the Aeron - and that can shade into griefing - some PvP-ers' actions are directed at the character the person in the Aeron is playing, etc.).

 

Nothing is really set in stone as to how someone should play a videogame, nor should it be.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Omnimorph

[GhostLacuna]

oh that is easy.

 

read a book to kill time. Or to learn new things.

 

watch a movie for the visual effect. Or analys it down to the tiniest bits.

 

play a game to see the story. Or listen to the music, many games have great music.

 

I could ramble on for quite some time about the multitude of reasons you can do any of those things.

 

Sometimes i play just to find what is broken in games. probably due to all the beta tests i have taken part in.

 

 

You know i find it funny that you bring up separating yourself from the world for a few hours.

 

I have the opposite problem.

 

I dont need to seperate from the world. I need to stay in it.

 

The mediums you speak of are not only a gate to another world they are also an anchor. 

 

When you experience someone else work, you can shut off your own for a while....

 

 

How many times would you rework the lashing of a young girl?

 

how many times would you go over the details as her skin is ripped apart, bruised and battered, how the blunt trauma trash her muscles and how her bones break?

 

How many of her multiple limbs will she lose this time?

 

how many times do you rework the weather, the time of day, the smells and the sounds?

 

how about the feelings, the emotions?

 

The sequence take 2 hours in that world. I have reworked it over the years for so long i lost count.

 

I know that discarded orphan little war creature in and out.

 

She is but a footnote in the main story of that world.

 

I have dozens of them going on at the same time. very few feature humans at all.

 

You ask why and how i can play if not to separate myself from the world.

 

How does to Focus sound?

Edited December 11, 2015 by GhostLacuna

[likeitsillegal]

I don't really get the complaints about the Operator being too pretty. The Orokin were all about visual perfection, symmetry, etc. The Operator even brings up some of that old Orokin shallowness, commenting that they should have cloned something less ugly than the Grineer during missions. 

[Megajoule]

I'll make one last try, but I feel a headache coming on, too many trained seals in the room clapping simultainously. And I'll start with a few questions and you try to answer them from the perspective of a GAMER, not a bookworm:

 

 

I've been a gamer and bookworm since the 70s.  You present a false dichotomy.

[--Q--Neffy]

i want him to be old af saying things like...Back in my day...when i was your age..

[KalastRaven]

 

In short, I'd very much like it if the Operator would stop talking without my (as the player's) input, and I'd like to walk around my ship instead of having the Warframe do it for me.

 

I wouldn't mind being able to move the Operator around, but I like having the Operator talk. I've always disliked silent protagonist (when an option for voiced is possible - ESPECIALLY when other characters are voiced).  I learned to live with it, as a LOT of games do the silent protagonist thing, but it personally annoys me.

[Bearssi]

I am a bit anxious with having my Tenno-self brought in the story. The universe is a dangerous place and i feel that Tenno are in their most vulnerable state than ever. In story perspective if anything happens to my Tenno-self i would just stop playing the game.

Some think it would be great to bring our Tenno to missions etc but that would state any failure state never happens in the story, this is the thing on most mmo stories. Failure means death/capture, no quick load function. I feel scared to be honest. 

Edited December 12, 2015 by Bearssi

[Agentcheese]

 

 

What the player "feels like" when they play the game is totally up them - whether they feel like they're just them sitting in a Herman Miller Aeron playing a game with cool graphics and some nice skill level and progression they can get involved in

What is a hermlin miller aeron? ive never heard of it before and it sounds like a fancy British sports car.

[deltaheavy]

all sense of danger is gone, its w/e now just like oh better get my robot out of there before the ship explodes -shrugs- I hate it lol

 

Ok I'm assuming ALL other games you play are perma death? like it you die in the game you cannot play it anymore? Because that's basically what you're saying. ''oh my robot is exchangeable!'' yeah, that's basically respawning in every other game, there's your sense of danger.

[Omnimorph]

What is a hermlin miller aeron? ive never heard of it before and it sounds like a fancy British sports car.

 

Hehe, it's one of the comfiest chairs in the world.  You find them a lot in high end offices.  I just happen to have one at home.

 

http://www.hermanmiller.co.uk/products/seating/performance-work-chairs/aeron-chairs.html

 

The supreme advantage of them is that

you can trump through the mesh.

Ok I'm assuming ALL other games you play are perma death? like it you die in the game you cannot play it anymore? Because that's basically what you're saying. ''oh my robot is exchangeable!'' yeah, that's basically respawning in every other game, there's your sense of danger.

 

Good point. 

[Morec0]

This still doesn't clear up the mess of the deaths of Mirage and Lotus' worry for us during Vor's Prize or during Grustrag attacks... Or even at all for the Gradivus Dilemma.

[Jowain]

... 

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Jowain92

[Morec0]

<Snip>

[UrielColtan]

This is a very NGE feel for me, so I loved it. Can't wait to get more stuff to customize them.

Speaking of Evangelion

"Evangelion is like a puzzle, you know. Any person can see it and give his/her own answer. In other words, we’re offering viewers to think by themselves, so that each person can imagine his/her own world. We will never offer the answers, even in the theatrical version. As for any Evangelion viewers, they may expect us to provide the ‘all-about Eva’ manuals, but there is no such thing. Don’t expect to get answers by someone. Don’t expect to be catered to all the time. We all have to find our own answers.”

– Hideaki Anno, Director of Neon Genesis Evangelion

[HAMMERSAREGREAT]

Though what was it with the Warframe moving on its own and destroying the "War" weapon?

We'll probably find out later.