[Mega Spoilers] To Those Who Dislike Being ...

[UrielColtan]

Is there something wrong with trying to persuade other people to your opinion?  It's part of the give and take of life.  Don't worry, if I can't persuade you to reconsider after a short conversation, I won't try and kill you or anything :)

 

From my point of view, I don't get why an exo-suit is any better.  This is part of the philosophical argument around this sort of concept of course ("brain in a vat").  I mean, with VR + Warframe you are "there" in every meaningful sense, in the sense that all the data coming in from the Warframe's sensors, including proprioception (sense of having a body), and all the signals going out from your brain are in exactly the same position as if you were physically inside a suit.

 

The only difference is the distance being crossed by "wifi" signals (or whatever it is).  Effectively, you're just substituting those "wifi" signals for some nerve signals and neurotransmitters.

 

While you are "in" the Warframe you have no sense that you are physically in a VR pod in the Orbiter, and you control the Warframe just as well as if you were in it; you even feel pain through it (as per Valkyr) and maybe can actually die if the Warframe dies (as per Mirage, possibly). 

 

So what's the big deal about physically being in the suit?

 

Its insulting to a person's intelligence to try and suggest that they are wrong for disliking something you like, and I am telling you right that you are not going to change my opinion, so you can stop.

Its pretty clear that it hurts your own enjoyment and this is actually why you keep attempting to force other people to conform, as if they are supposed to care about you liking Avatar. Invoking Avatar helps nothing if a person does not care about it and when this argument ignores fine details about said film as well.

It does not matter that an exo suit is not better to you, I don't care about what you like, nor care to convert you.

The exo suit is more interesting to me because I like characters to actually be doing things themselves, being at risk themselves and having a committed existence, not a schizophrenic one.

Not once do I prefer to see Tony's drones over Iron-Man himself.

Sure its easy to just send in immortal drone strikes, but it hardly makes me care about the one who only does that or feel anything for their drone "dying".

They don't die when their frame dies, the frames revive due to the very fact that the Tenno are not actually in them. Whatever pain Tenno feel from their Warframe is currently looking quite dull from the random dialogue the operator spouts in missions with monotone proclamations of "that...hurt" when my Warframe is taking a rocket to the face. They are not conveying to me the same tone that was being conveyed back when we were led to believe people were in these things back when Valkyr came around and Lotus told us Zanuka was made up of Tenno bodies..

And if they are truly at risk of dying from the frames, then they might as well be in them.

Edited December 7, 2015 by UrielColtan

[Sitchrea]

Its insulting to a person's intelligence to try and suggest that they are wrong for disliking something you like

You dislike what he is saying. Are you thus insulting his intelligence?

 

Come on, humans aren't interconnected robots which share every idea. Conversation happens for a reason - to gain a better understanding of the truth. The truth has been presented to us and, whether we like it or not, it's the truth.

 

Not liking it won't change it, but if, as you say, disagreeing with someone insults their intelligence, then is every person who speaks out against the revelation in the Second Dream thus insulting Steve's own intelligence?

 

Let's not be too zealous with out statements, now.

[UrielColtan]

You dislike what he is saying. Are you thus insulting his intelligence?

 

Come on, humans aren't interconnected robots which share every idea. Conversation happens for a reason - to gain a better understanding of the truth. The truth has been presented to us and, whether we like it or not, it's the truth.

 

Not liking it won't change it, but if, as you say, disagreeing with someone insults their intelligence, then is every person who speaks out against the revelation in the Second Dream thus insulting Steve's own intelligence?

 

Let's not be too zealous with out statements, now.

 

I'm not trying to change his mind about liking this reveal, you're bad at this.

[Torhque]

No, Officer, that kid in the trunk of my car is Me... Officer? Have I said something wrong?

Made me lol

[EmptyDevil]

The more i see these type of threads, the more i like how it turned out. Some players are literally like Stalker in that they refuse to accept the truth and are going mad over it. DE made you immerse one way or the other in a sense.

[Aimop95]

The more i see these type of threads, the more i like how it turned out. Some players are literally like Stalker in that they refuse to accept the truth and are going mad over it. DE made you immerse one way or the other in a sense.

So stalker really is just another player venting their rage on us? We dark souls now bois

[Omnimorph]

Its insulting to a person's intelligence to try and suggest that they are wrong for disliking something you like, and I am telling you right that you are not going to change my opinion, so you can stop.

Its pretty clear that it hurts your own enjoyment and this is actually why you keep attempting to force other people to conform, as if they are supposed to care about you liking Avatar. Invoking Avatar helps nothing if a person does not care about it and when this argument ignores fine details about said film as well.

It does not matter that an exo suit is not better to you, I don't care about what you like, nor care to convert you.

The exo suit is more interesting to me because I like characters to actually be doing things themselves, being at risk themselves and having a committed existence, not a schizophrenic one.

Not once do I prefer to see Tony's drones over Iron-Man himself.

Sure its easy to just send in immortal drone strikes, but it hardly makes me care about the one who only does that or feel anything for their drone "dying".

They don't die when their frame dies, the frames revive due to the very fact that the Tenno are not actually in them. Whatever pain Tenno feel from their Warframe is currently looking quite dull from the random dialogue the operator spouts in missions with monotone proclamations of "that...hurt" when my Warframe is taking a rocket to the face. They are not conveying to me the same tone that was being conveyed back when we were led to believe people were in these things back when Valkyr came around and Lotus told us Zanuka was made up of Tenno bodies..

And if they are truly at risk of dying from the frames, then they might as well be in them.

 

People can be wrong and people can be right, and people can be right or wrong about other people being right or wrong.  And people can change their minds as a result of argument, and people can think their former position was wrong - or they can stick with their former position.  It's not "insulting" to argue with people to try and persuade them to your position - on the contrary, it respects that they have intelligence and are capable of following arguments and going where evidence and argument takes them, or remaining unpersuaded. 

 

It doesn't "hurt my enjoyment" to see people who I think are making a mistake, it's just interesting to discuss, and I'd like people to reconsider.  I'd like to be sure that they actually understand the lore that's been presented, and they're not rejecting it based on its similarity to something else that they think it is, but isn't.  No skin off my nose if they don't change their minds, it's just a game after all. 

 

I only use Avatar because it's the closest analogy, in a film that nearly everyone has seen (I actually find some of the anti-capitalist, anti-technology, pro-woo sentiment disgusting, but the way the concept of "transference" is handled is brilliant, and jibes with the philosophical thought experiments in the area, with some of the tech extrapolations and thought experiments around consciousness, etc., so it's a good, solid example for that reason.)

 

Again, the issue is interesting because of the philosophical ramifications: what is the "themselves" in "doing things themselves"? 

 

You have a point with the bland Tenno transmissions (I have them off myself), but the combined lore does now tell us that Valkyr (the Tenno piloting the Valkyr avatar) felt pain through the Warframe (s/he thought s/he WAS the Warframe, after all), so it's not as if the lore has there being no "stakes" at all. 

 

And consider: while we (Tenno) thought we were the Warframe, we didn't know any better, so dying as the Warframe was (psychologically speaking) dying.  (Actually this is a bit of a murky area: while we players have been playing as Tenno who can pilot various different Warframes, it seems like the Tenno during the sentient war were 1-1.  But maybe not?)

[BaSiLB]

maybe the grow up later?

[--Q--uaint]

I want my name back from the Operator. Getting that back is enough for me.

 

"Thank you, Operator, I sure am glad you want to stealth in this Survival mission."

 

Seeing my tag under the things they say is... insulting. The Operator is even stupider than the Lotus is...

Everything the Lotus says is relevant, even if it's late or obvious ("It's the Grineer" aside); the Operator wants to stealth Survival missions and deploy Archwing on the Capture target.

[WERElektro]

+1

Even though I don't even think that people have to accept the path the story takes.

 

Dear Rpg'ers, artists, writers..... This is what we have headcanons and AU for.

You wrote about your Tenno Oc as - for example- a human inside the warframe? What keeps you from continuing to do so?

[OniDax]

The more i see these type of threads, the more i like how it turned out. Some players are literally like Stalker in that they refuse to accept the truth and are going mad over it. DE made you immerse one way or the other in a sense.

 

lol. That'll make some people even madder,

[--Q--uaint]

The more i see these type of threads, the more i like how it turned out. Some players are literally like Stalker in that they refuse to accept the truth and are going mad over it. DE made you immerse one way or the other in a sense.

Then truly give us the option to turn rogue. It's not a good addition if it makes the playerbase angry... People usually get over nerfs; I doubt if someone upset over this will ever want to return.

 

lol. That'll make some people even madder,

True story. I'm trying to decide whether and how much I'm angry, but I'm certainly sympathetic to those who are.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

we are what we are, all we can do now is move forward

[Syln]

I never identified myself as a frame ... i am an energy pad !

Edited December 7, 2015 by Syln

[RoadyRoad]

After rereading embers codex a dozen times over back in the day and seeing them as the result of the zeramin tradgady and rhinos rage with no where to go and his wearing his iron skin in it with no proof if we are tenno or warframe, nice to know that there's a person underneath the instincts of the children and their wild power. Was hard to accept we are basically infested suits of meat being hive minded by the tenno but still a really cool plot point. ppl thinking of them as just children but u can't forget what they were during their "dream"

[UrielColtan]

People can be wrong and people can be right, and people can be right or wrong about other people being right or wrong.  And people can change their minds as a result of argument, and people can think their former position was wrong - or they can stick with their former position.  It's not "insulting" to argue with people to try and persuade them to your position - on the contrary, it respects that they have intelligence and are capable of following arguments and going where evidence and argument takes them, or remaining unpersuaded. 

 

It doesn't "hurt my enjoyment" to see people who I think are making a mistake, it's just interesting to discuss, and I'd like people to reconsider.  I'd like to be sure that they actually understand the lore that's been presented, and they're not rejecting it based on its similarity to something else that they think it is, but isn't.  No skin off my nose if they don't change their minds, it's just a game after all. 

 

I only use Avatar because it's the closest analogy, in a film that nearly everyone has seen (I actually find some of the anti-capitalist, anti-technology, pro-woo sentiment disgusting, but the way the concept of "transference" is handled is brilliant, and jibes with the philosophical thought experiments in the area, with some of the tech extrapolations and thought experiments around consciousness, etc., so it's a good, solid example for that reason.)

 

Again, the issue is interesting because of the philosophical ramifications: what is the "themselves" in "doing things themselves"? 

 

You have a point with the bland Tenno transmissions (I have them off myself), but the combined lore does now tell us that Valkyr (the Tenno piloting the Valkyr avatar) felt pain through the Warframe (s/he thought s/he WAS the Warframe, after all), so it's not as if the lore has there being no "stakes" at all. 

 

And consider: while we (Tenno) thought we were the Warframe, we didn't know any better, so dying as the Warframe was (psychologically speaking) dying.  (Actually this is a bit of a murky area: while we players have been playing as Tenno who can pilot various different Warframes, it seems like the Tenno during the sentient war were 1-1.  But maybe not?)

 

Do you fancy yourself an avant-garde modern day Socrates or something? No one is impressed, you just come off to me like a door to door pushy salesmen.

I thought you said you were going to cease trying to change my opinion if its been established that you won't. Don't turn into a liar now. You can tell me not to hate this puppeteer yarn, but I am always going to prefer a genuine article. Sorry.

You are treading decades worth of a built up palette of exposure and preferences.

Do not impose yourself onto me and tell me what to like after a person has told you they are not interested in what you're selling.

Edited December 7, 2015 by UrielColtan

[Omnimorph]

 if it makes the playerbase angry...

 

Well, judging by the "straw poll" in another thread, it hasn't, the response, both in the thread itself and in the straw poll, is largely positive.

 

It's like the Parkour 2.0 thing - a few people are really quite jarred and upset (and of course one has sympathy for fellow players), but it's only a few.

[PublikDomain]

Yet they develop a whole culture and way of life, while they're dreaming that they are their Warframes.

s/he could be wise, ancient, tough-minded, etc.

Except that our Operators aren't wise, ancient, or tough-minded.

 

"The Grineer are mean ;_;"

"The Corpus are greedy ;_;"

"This will be fun!!! :D"

etc

 

They say naive, childish things. You'd think a little bit of that "culture" would have stuck around. I really feel bad for Hexis.

 

Edit: I've killed a quarter of a million people over the past 2 and some years. 140k Grineer, 80k Corpus. What a flippin' hypocrite, "the Grineer only make war".

Edited December 7, 2015 by PublikDomain

[Omnimorph]

Do you fancy yourself an avant-garde modern day Socrates or something? No one is impressed, you just come off to me like door to door Jehova's Witness salesmen.

I thought you said you were going to cease trying to change my opinion if its been established that you won't. Don't turn into a liar now. You can tell me not to hate this puppeteer yarn, but I am always going to prefer a genuine article. Sorry.

You are treading decades worth of a built up palette of exposure and preferences.

Do not impose yourself onto me and tell me what to like after a person has told you they are not interested in what you're selling.

 

Having a discussion and trying to persuade someone else is not, "attempting to force other people to conform".  Having a discussion is not "imposing" something on someone. 

 

If you don't like having discussions in which different opinions are aired, or you can't have an argument without getting in a huff, fair enough.  Sorry to have triggered you.

Except that our Operators aren't wise, ancient, or tough-minded.

 

"The Grineer are mean ;_;"

"The Corpus are greedy ;_;"

"This will be fun!!! :D"

etc

 

They say naive, childish things. You'd think a little bit of that "culture" would have stuck around. I really feel bad for Hexis.

 

I do agree that the Tenno transmissions could - do with some improvement.  After I've heard all there is to be heard, I'm turning them off.

[Athurio]

Personally, I could have done without the tired anime trope.  I mean, the whole "magic child-soldier pilots robot" shtick has just been done to death IMO.  Something less bland and more unique would have been awesome.  

 

As it stands now, I'm just another child protagonist like those in the mountain of JRPGs I played back in the 90's.

[GhostLacuna]

I dont dislike the quest itself or the warframes being controlled.

 

What i dislike is that i am not even in the game any longer.

 

Before i was the operator

 

Now?

 

I dont know if i should change dipers on that junk in the back of the liset or if i should hope for a quest where i can end its pre pubertal life before it grows into a full on emo.

 

The thing looks around 12.

 

As someone who has been longer out of puberty then in it i can not for the life of my identify with that.

 

It feels like DE forced me to adopt yet another cripple. I already had ordis i dont need another.

 

I am no longer connected to the world of warframe.

 

Now i am only a observer watching a little kid play with dolls.

Edited December 7, 2015 by GhostLacuna

[BlackFox666]

all sense of danger is gone, its w/e now just like oh better get my robot out of there before the ship explodes -shrugs- I hate it lol

[Gale47]

Personally, I could have done without the tired anime trope.  I mean, the whole "magic child-soldier pilots robot" shtick has just been done to death IMO.  Something less bland and more unique would have been awesome.  

 

As it stands now, I'm just another child protagonist like those in the mountain of JRPGs I played back in the 90's.

You see it as such because you're not looking for more information. It is more unique.

 

all sense of danger is gone, its w/e now just like oh better get my robot out of there before the ship explodes -shrugs- I hate it lol

 

A Warframe isn't a robot, sorry.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Gale47

[Latiac]

I'm sticking with my headcanon, the Operator doesn't control the warframes, I do. the warframes are alive, they are their own being, they have their own personalities. I am the warframe. The operator is just someone I rescued who I now have to protect. This will be the case until the lore goes in a direction I like.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Latiac

[Gilmaesh]

I like the new story line but i don't like the operator on the field.