[Spoiler] The Second Dream Open Letter, Review Of Subjective Experience: A Player Alienated

[iron-y]

While I found the U18 quest line fun and beautifully done, I also have quite mixed feelings about the outcome.
Of course, I respect DE's choices, this is their game and they do what they think works well, great that there are players who are enjoying this lore. This is merely my personal opinion, which some may or may not agree with.

---
One of the things that I found Warframe interesting for is the mystery it had about what the characters are, and I honestly have hoped that the quest line would have kept some of that. Knowing that it has been quite a while since the game's release, many players had their own ideas that they have gotten attached to more or less, so a literal reveal would always make a portion of the playerbase upset.

This outcome also kind of makes Limbo's and Mirage's deaths in their respective quest lines having less of an impact, as well as fate of valkyr/zanuka being much less dramatic as there is no hint of the consciousness of the operator not being able to leave the body without a device. Why does Lotus seem emotional about Mirage's fate in such a case?

Quest line and opinions on the lore aside; I do believe that the Focus skill animations is somewhat immersion breaking, knowing that the tenno is safely hidden away in the ship, having them suddenly appear on the battlefield looks somewhat strange. Makes me think; did ordis throw the poor thing out the airlock? (not seriously) It seemed like it was intended for their identity to remain hidden, so why show themselves? Plus it is a spoiler to players who had not yet done the quest.

The whole operator speaking to the warframe (which, yes, you can disable) is also a curious thing. It's like they are either talking to themselves or there is something about the frames the lore has not revealed yet. Perhaps they are in some sort of a symbiotic relationship.

---
Personally I get more attached to the Frame I see on screen and do not  feel much of a connection whatsoever to the character sitting at the back of the liset. Kind of imagined that perhaps the operator might be just a formless consciousness being able to inhabit different bodies and experience what they do/happens to them at the time? Even if i'd like them all to be different individuals, but that wasn't likely due to game mechanic and references to use of many frames from early on.

I wouldn't say "I hate children", but I will be honest in saying that there would be less of a possibility of me playing an online game which only allows my character to appear childlike from the get to go.
[Maybe it's DE's way of saying, we (players) are crying children. Just joking there.]

Cheers

[Volkovyi]

Yeah, no. I've been with the game for about two years now, and I know others who were here from the beginning.  None of us have a problem with it.

 

What you're trying to do is pretend to have a more valid and valuable viewpoint than your opposition, and it's just making you sound whiny.

 

Good sir, the reason we have placed a lot of effort in doing our very best to explain our experience is for the sole purpose of simply providing another view point to consider. Just to consider, that we are all affected by this story development differently as a whole. We do not intend, and have never intended, to convince someone one way or another. I deny the accusation that I am "pretending" to have a more valuable viewpoint than my "opposition," of which there is none.

 

We are not fighting, there is no opposition, no one is out to win one way or another. I just want to discuss and explore, hopefully in good manners.

 

If there is a part of my writing where I am not showing good manners, or can be misinterpreted as something sinister, please point it out to me so I can better rephrase it.

[Anatolius]

The storyline was never under your control.  Everything you named is either superficial cosmetics or customization within unalterable gameplay mechanics.  In other words, the vast majority of the game is not affected by player choice.

 

Except the clues werent really there. Or atleast they werent that obvious

Its like [insert any book, novel, or literature piece with unclear meaning] and saying "It means this its RIGHT THERE dont you get it"

it was up to interpretation with only its creators knowing what it really meant.

 

I understand they cant change things but saying you should have seen it coming isnt really fair [NOT RANTING AT YOU WHEEZE]

[Volkovyi]

EDIT: I forgot to state I feel ya', but I don't feel the same about it. I'm just gonna be technical here and not get into the emotional factor. It's kind of supposed to be encouraging, but again from a technical standpoint.

 

 

K. I'm gonna throw some human physiology science into this laheystorm right hurr.

 

See, these kids woke up, with the Warframes as their avatar notwithstanding, with NO memory, just the voice of some broad with a big 'ead who goes by "Lotus" and a whole lot of angry, deformed folks with bulky armor and one jerkwad shoving an Orokin-enhanced, military-grade Corpus torture/mind-control device into their side.

 

Yet you know how to use guns and swords. Daggers, staffs, throwing knives, etc. And the stance mods? How the ebin do you explain those? How do they work? Like magnets?

 

Well, there's something called "muscle memory," and it's legit. There are animals with less-than-centralized nervous systems having a "hindbrain." Although the only known animal with a significant one is now extinct. Our muscle's nerve-clusters can still store quite a bit of data: reflexes and movement patterns. This is why and how "running on autopilot" works. Reflexes are minor data for us in comparison to things like specific memories and names. This is also why they're so quick and don't have to pass through the frontal lobe.

 

These bits of data are stored on the evolutionary front, and are not meant to be erased. They can get rusty, oh yes, but they are never purposefully erased by the body.

 

But I'm not talking about the Tenno. The Tenno themselves never actually handle the weapons, ergo, it's the Warframes who have the muscle memory - the Tenno are only tapping into it. Considering that the Warframes are biomechanical, it would be safe to assume they store many of these functions as hardcopies (genes maybe?) in case of nervous system failure (countless deaths and such lmao).

 

The reason I compare the Warframes to humans is that the t-cytes' communication side is obviously based on human neuro-mapping, considering how quickly the Infestation can take over any given facility. The Tenno are immune because voidshenanigans, and the Warframes by extension because of the Tenno's astral presence within them, and I think that's a reason they don't actually mind it is because it gets rid of the c̶͖͎̣͙on͉̮̯͕ ̗̯͇̜̫͍ͅs̷̩͈t͍̳̕a̧͇a̡̹͙͚n͏̤̫͕̦n҉ͅt̫̲͇ s͉̱̰̮͈͙ͅkc̢ ̣̠r̯̰̱e̹̞̞̗ͅa̙̮͖m͓͈͉̝̠ ̫̰͍I̞̹̭̞͚̠̺I̵̹̲̟N̦͚̮̜ͅg.

 

And of course there's Rhino's codex entry.

The Rhino is savage and predatory, but stops in front of the cells where the Orokin kept the kids. Also, this was before Transference.

 

OH OH OH. The "dream of what you want to be" line was before Transference. The one chick who was training them had them astral-project instead of doing everything in-person because it vented excess energy and lessened the chances of the Tenno blowing someone else or themselves up. She was killed by the court before the tech was even an idea.

 

Hopefully my suspicions are correct and the Warframes themselves will get their time in the sun, but with Lore instead of being cogs in a machine. Technically the Tenno are as well, and the Sentient are ill-pressed to consider them an enemy, as both were abused by the Orokin, and the Tenno are responsible for the destruction of the Orokin, full-stop, and did what the Sentients could not: catch them with their pants down. All the way down. Maybe it's jealousy? "Git Gud, lmao." -my Tenno, probably.

 

I would recommend everyone absolutely consider the Warframes and Tenno separate entities until further notice, i.e. when new lore involving them comes out. We still got U20 to get to, ya know ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).

 

I wanna see them fighting back-to-back with magic horsehocky and horsehockey guns. Turnin' em to stone and blowing them to Kingdom Come with my six-Forma supershotgun (or maybe some ripping and tearing). At the same time. Switching out like some Army Of Two nonsense, blasting "Fortunate Son," while wearing faux-Hawaiian t-shirts and aviators, and asking everyone they meet if they have their lawn gnomes.

 

PS: If you have any doubts about what I'm trying to get across please ask for elaboration first :U.

 

Those are interesting points to consider, that is about the muscle memory. Thank you for taking the time to add your thoughts. I assumed the Warframes were always some iteration of the Technocyte virus, considering how the Infested call to us of like flesh during assassination missions. Upon further consideration, it does appear that there are many more things to uncover between the Tenno, Orokin, Warframes, and respective origins. They do seem to all be separate individuals given the in-game hints and details between the lines.

[ZodiacShinryu]

@iron-y (IE doesn't do quote functionality it appears)

 

We don't know exactly how transference works.  Canonly its hard to believe pre u18 we could swap frames at will knowing what we know now.  We also in the beginning woke up without our memory or perhaps we were in the dream daze where memory is a fleeting thing. For all intensive purposes in the beginning the warframe was their body.  Even while the tenno having their body separate, their mind would have been extremely linked to the frame. People that lose limbs sometimes experience "phantom pain" where they feel pain from the limb they are missing.  Everything is at some level a fabrication of the brain trying to understand its world (even if the stimuli isn't really there in the case of phantom pain). So what happens when your brain experiences something as traumatic as a death of your body and everything leading to that point?  It would probably behave as if it was dying even if it wasn't actually in danger. At best you go into a coma from the shock, at worst you actually die.  Even if the tenno survived what would their psychological state be after some thing like that?

 

Its easy to say you can just detach with our real world VR which isn't even engaging our brains close to the levels of actual activity.  If valkyr/limbo/mirage didn't know they could detach (we don't even know what released the tenno child in the quest was it the lotus or was it the tenno) or can't detach (its possible swaping frames is nothing more than a game mechanic or various other reasons) then they were subjected to everything their frames were, feeling everything their frames were.  Transference is likely more akin to Sword Art Online VR (for people that know that anime) then the current VR tech we have now.

[Pavelord]

Hi Volkovyi, I appreciate your sensible and hearthfelt account of your experience, it is more common that I tought it would, I think part of the community had been very vocal about wanting more lore and answers, because they felt the Warframe experience was very bland and mostly grinding, this probably had been resonating on DE for a while, and i think they push forward with the most ask question.

 

As for me I like it, I never invested myself in several personalities for each frame, the reveal presented to me as something logical, as a adherent of the mono tenno theory I always felt weird that the idle animations imposed certain traits on my character, I feel that the reveal even explains that.

 

I don't think U18 destroy the link and personalization with the character/s, but shift the place where it is located, it wasn't in the warframe, that is a suit but it isn't exactly with the tenno either, I believe the player is represented as the dream, the second dream, this shapeless, intangible thing. And just as we in RL can dream of becoming superman, teacher, friend a sister or brother and wake up and remain ourselves; so does the tenno dream of being different beings. Now that the dream is split, we both board the warframe. 

 

This is to me what brings several nuances to the game and made me enjoy the work put into it. Anyway quoting DESteve, "maybe future expansion resonate more with you", keep being a awesome member of the community.

[IntegrityKnight]

Very well written I must say, and I will try my best to convey my meaning without sounding to harsh, but I can never seem to get some points across via text.

As a Veteran, (I've been playing since Open Beta first launched) I actually enjoyed The Second Dream thuoghly, but I understand that not everyone did. The main problem that I seem to keep seeing is that people have been playing for so long with little to no lore, they create their own. Not trying to pin the blame on the players or DE, it's just what Humans do, if there is something we don't know, we try and make our own theories up. That is the problem though, and where this backlash has come from.

People have made their own lore for this game, and DE just dropped a bombshell on their theories that they held for do long. That makes people mad, which is understandable. When a game developer makes a lore decision, normally the player has nearly no say, otherwise the lore that they have set up for now and later expansions would have to be changed based on the whims of the community, and destroy all plans of further storytelling. (I'm honestly trying not to sound nasty to anyone, but I can't seem to put this in any softer terms) I've seen the same thing happen with other games, where the developer says something very vague, that could mean anything, and dome players take and run with it, and make up their own version of what is going to happen, and when what they invisioned doesn't happen, they get disappointed.

I'm trying to stay neutral, and if there is ANY blame at all on this matter, I would say it is an equal share on DE for waiting for so long, and not giving more obvious clues to the playerbase to help shape their mindset to what they wanted, but also on the players, for making up their own story in a game that was, at some point, make it's own story the drvelopers wanted regardless of what the fanbase wanted.

Sorry guys, but remember we still have PLENTY more story to go through, I highly doubt DE will stop here, so there might be hope for your ideas to come through in a different way, regardless, if you wanna continue Roleplaying or something, just say it's an AU or something along those lines. The Warframe comunity is actually pretty big, and a very creative bunch, do use this story as a springboard for other ideas, but remember if you set your bar to high, nothing will ever reach it.

Just please keep it out of edgelord territory and don't draw freaking warframes killing children, that's just not cool.

Edited December 12, 2015 by UnknwnKnghtS

[Volkovyi]

This. Exactly this. The Warframe had it's own will during that moment. Without contact with the Operator, this "metal puppet" should have had no capability to move, yet it did. It tore War in two, and if you look during the cinematic, there is blood. There is a GAPING FLESH WOUND from the War's blade being ripped through the Warframe's upper right chest and right shoulder. 

 

There's a reason Lephantis says "Why do you destroy us? We are your flesh."  The Theory I hold on to is that the Warframes are production models of Technocyte beings the Orokin created as a weapon against the Sentients. The Infested are an offshoot, failed experiments gone awry. Rhino Prime's Codex references a beast that suddenly stops before tearing two workers asunder, near the children of Zariman and their location. That's the original, primal Rhino. Sculpted, manufactured into what we see today. No longer are they purely driven by instinct, blood lust, or whatever. Using Transference, the Warframes were put to use against the Sentients, and the Tenno were controlled by the Orokin. Maybe the Warframe was going off of instinct, maybe it was remnants of the Operator's thoughts. Whatever happened, it proved that the Warframes are not merely metal puppets with the Operator, the Tenno as the puppeteer. 

 

And it's understandable you're feeling alienated because of the reveal. You have taken on the role, the persona of the Operator. Many years, 3 in your case, you have been under the illusion that you were your warframe. All of a sudden, you aren't. You're just a kid. A teenager. 

 

This is also something we have been aware of, we haven't completely missed these details. I believe one of the few lore details we were given as fact in the past is that Warframes are some derivative of the Technocyte virus, which is shared by the Infested. But there is also lore details of some kind of warriors coming from the Void from Excalibur Prime's codex entry. I wonder how this all ties in with one another. Or if there is anything that has to be updated to consider The Second Dream reveal? I suppose these details are something that will be addressed in the future.

 

Nonetheless, thank you for understanding.

[Volkovyi]

Very well written I must say, and I will try my best to convey my meaning without sounding to harsh, but I can never seem to get some points across via text.

As a Veteran, (I've been playing since Open Beta first launched) I actually enjoyed The Second Dream thuoghly, but I understand that not everyone did. The main problem that I seem to keep seeing is that people have been playing for so long with little to no lore, they create their own. Not trying to pin the blame on the players or DE, it's just what Humans do, if there is something we don't know, we try and make our own theories up. That is the problem though, and where this backlash has come from.

People have made their own lore for this game, and DE just dropped a bombshell on their theories that they held for do long. That makes people mad, which is understandable. When a game developer makes a lore decision, normally the player has nearly no say, otherwise the lore that they have set up for now and later expansions would have to be changed based on the whims of the community, and destroy all plans of further storytelling. (I'm honestly trying not to sound nasty to anyone, but I can't seem to put this in any softer terms) I've seen the same thing happen with other games, where the developer says something very vague, that could mean anything, and dome players take and run with it, and make up their own version of what is going to happen, and when what they invisioned doesn't happen, they get disappointed.

I'm trying to stay neutral, and if there is ANY blame at all on this matter, I would say it is an equal share on DE for waiting for so long, and not giving more obvious clues to the playerbase to help shape their mindset to what they wanted, but also on the players, for making up their own story in a game that was, at some point, make it's own story the drvelopers wanted regardless of what the fanbase wanted.

Sorry guys, but remember we still have PLENTY more story to go through, I highly doubt DE will stop here, so there might be hope for your ideas to come through in a different way, regardless, if you wanna continue Roleplaying or something, just say it's an AU or something along those lines. The Warframe comunity is actually pretty big, and a very creative bunch, do use this story as a springboard for other ideas, but remember if you set your bar to high, nothing will ever reach it.

Just please keep it out of edgelord territory and don't draw freaking warframes killing children, that's just not cool.

 

I understand what you are saying, and to an extent what you say is true. Thank you for commenting with your own well written intentions.

 

My ultimate message in my letter is that I want to address the chosen identity given to us feels alienating and forced, not so much that our personal theories are made to be untrue. On the contrary I was fully aware what I might have created as personal lore is indeed completely untrue, I was prepared to be shocked, I never had any disillusions like so. It is simply about the player who is invested in playing a video game, and if a player can not become invested they will not play it.

 

I never mentioned anything about Warframes killing children though, that seems quite unnecessary.

[Volkovyi]

Hi Volkovyi, I appreciate your sensible and hearthfelt account of your experience, it is more common that I tought it would, I think part of the community had been very vocal about wanting more lore and answers, because they felt the Warframe experience was very bland and mostly grinding, this probably had been resonating on DE for a while, and i think they push forward with the most ask question.

 

As for me I like it, I never invested myself in several personalities for each frame, the reveal presented to me as something logical, as a adherent of the mono tenno theory I always felt weird that the idle animations imposed certain traits on my character, I feel that the reveal even explains that.

 

I don't think U18 destroy the link and personalization with the character/s, but shift the place where it is located, it wasn't in the warframe, that is a suit but it isn't exactly with the tenno either, I believe the player is represented as the dream, the second dream, this shapeless, intangible thing. And just as we in RL can dream of becoming superman, teacher, friend a sister or brother and wake up and remain ourselves; so does the tenno dream of being different beings. Now that the dream is split, we both board the warframe. 

 

This is to me what brings several nuances to the game and made me enjoy the work put into it. Anyway quoting DESteve, "maybe future expansion resonate more with you", keep being a awesome member of the community.

 

That is an interesting way to look at this outcome. It does however feel abstractly meta in a way, that the Second Dream is actually referring to us as the players and such. While very interesting, I am unsure how much I can accept such an abstract meta story-telling element, if that is indeed what was intended. As you have shown me it can be interpreted many ways.

 

The link and personlization you mention isn't necessarily destroyed, but shifting the location of an identity might also achieve the same effect as if it was destroyed. Yes there is an identity, but it isn't what one is invested in or wanted. 

 

Nonetheless, I always await eagerly, but patiently, for whatever DE has prepared next in line for creation.

Thank you for commenting thoughtfully.

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

There is a very easy fix for this. Simply get us more operator models. One being mere "energy" and one hopefully being adult, because I have no problems with an operator, but I do have problems being a kid. It just feels so cliché you know?

[Pavelord]

That is an interesting way to look at this outcome. It does however feel abstractly meta in a way, that the Second Dream is actually referring to us as the players and such. While very interesting, I am unsure how much I can accept such an abstract meta story-telling element, if that is indeed what was intended. As you have shown me it can be interpreted many ways.

 

The link and personlization you mention isn't necessarily destroyed, but shifting the location of an identity might also achieve the same effect as if it was destroyed. Yes there is an identity, but it isn't what one is invested in or wanted. 

 

Nonetheless, I always await eagerly, but patiently, for whatever DE has prepared next in line for creation.

Thank you for commenting thoughtfully.

Indeed, it is a abstract idea, I think I having problems putting the right words, I'm not trying to make it meta. I explained it in another thread like this:  the tenno has a conscious mind, when put to dream, as we know the subconsious mind takes over, free of the ego and the weight of the "awake" life, this subconsious will develop a personality as it is projected into the warframe. Meaning that I, Pavelord the warframe's essence lies in the dreaming subconsicous, and take shape in the warframe. And not Pavelord the human player of DE's game.

 

Does it sound different? or feels the same?, maybe I'm not getting the meta concept right. I tried to line the idea with some of the concern players had, like the tenno saying things the player  wouldn't, or the feeling they are not mature enough and "why am I talking to myself in the mission".

 

This lead me to the idea that now with the reveal the dream was split, and the consious and subconsious parts both emerge in the warframe, kinda like the tenno being both pilot and copilot. Well I sure hope the next reveal shed some light on things, thanks for reading.

[HunterFenrir]

I still am confused though... All this time we were just empty shells that fought to stay alive when we were in no harm at all. And if the warframes are metal puppets, why was lotus in such despair when losing mirage as seen in the quest? And why a child???

With all due respect I am not against this reveal but I just can't get comfortable with the fact that we're just kids and those warframes we fought with were just tools... I honestly would rather have our identity remain a mystery than know that the warframes we know and fought with are nothing but weapons. I refuse to accept the fact we are children.

[motorfirebox]

Except the clues werent really there. Or atleast they werent that obvious

Its like [insert any book, novel, or literature piece with unclear meaning] and saying "It means this its RIGHT THERE dont you get it"

it was up to interpretation with only its creators knowing what it really meant.

 

I understand they cant change things but saying you should have seen it coming isnt really fair [NOT RANTING AT YOU WHEEZE]

 

Well, I don't think anybody's saying that we should have seen it coming. Just that this was built into the lore from the beginning.

Edited December 14, 2015 by motorfirebox

[Pavelord]

I still am confused though... All this time we were just empty shells that fought to stay alive when we were in no harm at all. And if the warframes are metal puppets, why was lotus in such despair when losing mirage as seen in the quest? And why a child???

With all due respect I am not against this reveal but I just can't get comfortable with the fact that we're just kids and those warframes we fought with were just tools... I honestly would rather have our identity remain a mystery than know that the warframes we know and fought with are nothing but weapons. I refuse to accept the fact we are children.

We still don't know at what point the Lotus discovered the secret of the tenno, the scene could had been at some point when she still didn't know, and even though the tenno are not inside the warframes, their mind is, being murdered is still a horrible experience to have.

 

As for the kids, I think the general guess is because they dream in cryogenic pods, we are gonna have to wait and see if they shed more light on that.

[Volkovyi]

We still don't know at what point the Lotus discovered the secret of the tenno, the scene could had been at some point when she still didn't know, and even though the tenno are not inside the warframes, their mind is, being murdered is still a horrible experience to have.

 

As for the kids, I think the general guess is because they dream in cryogenic pods, we are gonna have to wait and see if they shed more light on that.

 

I believe I must add a counter point. In the Second Dream quest it is revealed Lotus hid the moon away in the void on purpose to hide the Tenno. With Alad V's shock that the moon still exists at all, we can assume that Lotus did this a very long time ago and knew all along.

 

I suppose we can also assume that we, the Tenno, worked so hard to keep our kind alive is because of a few possibilities; as the Tenno didn't know about the truth they obviously simply fought for survival thinking they are indeed the Warframe, and fought to save the others because they are their brethren of a small dying race. Each Warframe life was valuable. Like we said earlier in the thread if they truly believed they were the Warframe, their mind could actually conceive death and injury from battle even if their "real" body was never in harm's way.

 

Lotus could have been showing concern with Warframe/Tenno death in the past because she may have known this reason. Perhaps the Warframes are first very difficult to create if at all, as a dying race, and the foundry we have in-game is just a game mechanic? Perhaps she knew that dying in the Warframe meant the conscience died with it, or was traumatized and severed, and could injure the Tenno for real back in the reservoir. Perhaps the Warframes are alive to some extent. Or perhaps she was lying to keep up this ruse?

[Volkovyi]

Well, I don't think anybody's saying that we should have seen it coming. Just that this was built into the lore from the beginning.

 

That may be true, they say that hindsight is always 20/20. Knowing what we know now, we can easily see the clues and what each bit of lore was hinting at. However it still stands that even if it was built into the lore form the beginning, it was not obvious, and obscure.

 

In reference to the larger discussion, it would be unfair to use this point as a reason to invalidate player's shock or disliking of the reveal. I mean to say I am just agreeing that no one was expected to see it coming.

[Volkovyi]

I still am confused though... All this time we were just empty shells that fought to stay alive when we were in no harm at all. And if the warframes are metal puppets, why was lotus in such despair when losing mirage as seen in the quest? And why a child???

With all due respect I am not against this reveal but I just can't get comfortable with the fact that we're just kids and those warframes we fought with were just tools... I honestly would rather have our identity remain a mystery than know that the warframes we know and fought with are nothing but weapons. I refuse to accept the fact we are children.

 

I do agree with you. I am hoping to an extent that we are promised some more information about the Warframes in the future, that perhaps we are not truly empty shells, and tools of war forever. In a way this does feel like our experiences up until this point have been compromised, dare I say cheapened, knowing and being called empty shells, puppets.

 

Nonetheless the child aspect of this does seem to be an odd choice, I am sure the story could have achieved the same effect and intensity if they were full grown adults, or even just not unmasked in the end. I wonder what mood DE is looking for by making the Tenno children.

[Volkovyi]

Indeed, it is a abstract idea, I think I having problems putting the right words, I'm not trying to make it meta. I explained it in another thread like this:  the tenno has a conscious mind, when put to dream, as we know the subconsious mind takes over, free of the ego and the weight of the "awake" life, this subconsious will develop a personality as it is projected into the warframe. Meaning that I, Pavelord the warframe's essence lies in the dreaming subconsicous, and take shape in the warframe. And not Pavelord the human player of DE's game.

 

Does it sound different? or feels the same?, maybe I'm not getting the meta concept right. I tried to line the idea with some of the concern players had, like the tenno saying things the player  wouldn't, or the feeling they are not mature enough and "why am I talking to myself in the mission".

 

This lead me to the idea that now with the reveal the dream was split, and the consious and subconsious parts both emerge in the warframe, kinda like the tenno being both pilot and copilot. Well I sure hope the next reveal shed some light on things, thanks for reading.

 

What I mean by meta is the literary tool of self-referencing. Comparing the Tenno's waking mind and conscience to how the player experienced the reveal and also "waking up" realizing we are another identity, is referencing itself and the player. So that would in a way be meta, using the true definition that is.

 

However, saying that our conscience and sub conscience split into basically two identities would add even a deeper level of abstract psychology and theorizing around this situation. I am really not sure what even might be more likable as a possibility, or possible at this point.

[Pavelord]

What I mean by meta is the literary tool of self-referencing. Comparing the Tenno's waking mind and conscience to how the player experienced the reveal and also "waking up" realizing we are another identity, is referencing itself and the player. So that would in a way be meta, using the true definition that is.

 

However, saying that our conscience and sub conscience split into basically two identities would add even a deeper level of abstract psychology and theorizing around this situation. I am really not sure what even might be more likable as a possibility, or possible at this point.

thanks for the feed back.

[Jowain]

... 

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Jowain92

[Necrius]

Kinda disappointed with "eternal child" as main character, would prefer an adult avatar. Weak, helpless and vulnerable without their connection to Warframe, but mature person.

 

DE still got the mystery behind warframes themselves. During Second Dream final cinematic our frame did show a bit of self-awareness by breaking the sword. Maybe we will have a Warframe uprising and will choose between staying a zariman child Tenno or becoming our Warframe?

 

P.S. How many kids were on Zariman? Was it the only Tenno batch or Orokin went for mass production to fuel the needs of Old War?

Edited December 15, 2015 by Necrius

[Volkovyi]

Kinda disappointed with "eternal child" as main character, would prefer an adult avatar. Weak, helpless and vulnerable without their connection to Warframe, but mature person.

 

DE still got the mystery behind warframes themselves. During Second Dream final cinematic our frame did show a bit of self-awareness by breaking the sword. Maybe we will have a Warframe uprising and will choose between staying a zariman child Tenno or becoming our Warframe?

 

P.S. How many kids were on Zariman? Was it the only Tenno batch or Orokin went for mass production to fuel the needs of Old War?

 

It does feel incongruent to not only force the Zariman Tenno child as the "main character" but also how it seems that the Zariman children were an accident. By all accounts of the entire lore of Warframe, the Tenno in some form or another seemingly had an entire culture. Enough of a culture and race to have Tenno craftsman, artisans, the schools of fighting styles in the focus system, to serve in a war as warriors, this seems like a lot more than can be feasibly created with what sounds like a handful of children who 'accidentally' gained powers.

 

Unless there are actually adults who used Transference on Warframes as a tool of war, and they developed the Tenno culture over time, in which case how come we can not have them as our avatars?

 

Nonetheless, my investment in the game after almost three years and over a thousand hours lies with my warframe, not a child. I do hope more will be expanded upon the Warframes in the future, however they may have planned it. It would be an amazing turn of events to have a "Warframe uprising."

[(PSN)mothfairy]

Oh this never occurred to me when playing but I can defiantly understand your points.

 

I still personally feel like I am playing as my frame not my Operator. Especially when they say things like "I hope we're ready for this." during a mission.

 

I find it very interesting they always say 'We'. 

 

I just personally see my operator as this small thing I must protect that lives in the back of my ship and is the source of my powers. I feel more connected with them in the sense that they are a customizable NPC that is important to my warframe. Almost symbiotic??

 

Although that view on this is really affected by me interpreting the final cutscene as warframes being not actually empty. Which could be untrue. Who knows. Just seemed like with the villain saying the frames were puppets right before they moved seemingly on their own (while the tenno still looked incapacitated) that maybe that visual language was intentional. That and the quest has themes of defiance and that felt like a rebellious moment to me.

 

So maybe next quest we will get some more insight and perhaps more autonomy for the frames? I like autonomy...

 

I guess though the fact they have the quiz at the end there sorta tries to immerse you in being the child which didn't really bother me but I could see where it could be very jarring. If they just took out the quiz and made it a regular cut scene with the dialogue determined maybe based on what school you pick it would be less hard to swallow?? More choice as to how to personally integrate and veiw this sudden unexpected child.

Edited December 25, 2015 by (PS4)mothfairy

[Chipputer]

I still personally feel like I am playing as my frame not my Operator. Especially when they say things like "I hope we're ready for this." during a mission.

 

I find it very interesting they always say 'We'.

They say "we" because there is more than one Tenno in existence and, likely, within the same mission. I think you're reading too far into it to think that "we" refers to both the Operator AND the Warframe.