BlackVortex Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) You don't know what efficiency means ef·fi·cient əˈfiSHənt/ adjective (especially of a system or machine) achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense. "fluorescent lamps are efficient at converting electricity into light" (of a person) working in a well-organized and competent way. "an efficient administrator" synonyms: organized, methodical, systematic, logical, orderly, businesslike, streamlined, productive, effective, cost-effective, labor-saving More preventing the wasteful use of a particular resource. suffix: -efficient "an energy-efficient heating system" Huh.... Cause I woulda sworn with +75% efficiency i was minimizing the amount of energy I used and maximizing how many times I could use an ability..... Sounds exactly like the first definition. (seriously bro.... Stop nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking. Warframe is a game about space ninjas. Stop trying to make things more complicated then they need to be) nit·pick·ing ˈnitˌpikiNG/ informal adjective 1. looking for small or unimportant errors or faults, especially in order to criticize unnecessarily. "a nitpicking legalistic exercise" noun 1. fussy fault-finding. "nitpicking over tiny details" Its fine as warframes don't work by conventional logic. Making a warframe more efficient works differently then you realize as void energy defies most science. So going by the base definition of Efficiency is correct as it is indeed more efficient no it's not, you are wrong and it has been explained to you in great detail a lot of times here already btw where did you get those definitions, google? now go back and play on your PS4 /flameshield on Edited December 23, 2015 by BlackVortex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarticulate Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) You don't know what efficiency means (insert definition of "efficient' here) I'm not sure where you're getting "efficient" from because "efficient" is not the same as "efficiency". efficiency 3. the ratio of the work done or energy developed by a machine, engine, etc., to the energy supplied to it, usually expressed as a percentage. (Source: Dictionary.com) Therefore, "175% efficiency" means that I put in 58 Energy and get 102 Energy worth of space ninja magic out. Edited December 23, 2015 by Inarticulate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 no it's not, you are wrong and it has been explained to you in great detail a lot of times here already btw where did you get those definitions, google? now go back and play on your PS4 /flameshield on ef·fi·cien·cy əˈfiSHənsē/ noun the state or quality of being efficient. ef·fi·cient əˈfiSHənt/ adjective (especially of a system or machine) achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense. "fluorescent lamps are efficient at converting electricity into light" (of a person) working in a well-organized and competent way. "an efficient administrator" synonyms: organized, methodical, systematic, logical, orderly, businesslike, streamlined, productive, effective, cost-effective, labor-saving More preventing the wasteful use of a particular resource. suffix: -efficient "an energy-efficient heating system" You guys might want to go back to fourth grade or stop being so nitpicky cause its the exact definition of efficiency. The system is intuitive as it will ever be as it works in the same way all the other stat percentages work. De did something right and you guys won't be happy unless they make it confusing and convoluted as hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarticulate Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 -you'd be more credible if you cited your source- -er... I mean... snip- "Efficiency" has a technical definition. I posted it above. Cherry-picking the incorrect definition because you don't understand which definition is correct for the context tells me you are the one that needs to go back to fourth grade and learn how to properly use a dictionary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Guys, you literally are calling stupid anyone who doesn't agree with you. That's not condescension anymore, that's plain insult inb4 lock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naftal Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Guys, you literally are calling stupid anyone who doesn't agree with you. That's not condescension anymore, that's plain insult inb4 lock But this isn't about opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azamagon Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) -snip- You guys might want to go back to fourth grade or stop being so nitpicky cause its the exact definition of efficiency. The system is intuitive as it will ever be as it works in the same way all the other stat percentages work. De did something right and you guys won't be happy unless they make it confusing and convoluted as hell. Except power efficiency does NOT work as all the other stat percentages work. I told you about that already, look at post #42. All other percentages in the game (damage, reloading, fire rate etc) requires you to put in way more of the value to double it again. Power Efficiency right now, since it DOESN'T follow the other formulas, does the opposite: To double its worth, you need LESS than you needed before. So the part of yours which I just bolded and underlined is completely and utterly wrong. It's not about opinions dude, you are spreading misinformation I'm not sure where you're getting "efficient" from because "efficient" is not the same as "efficiency". efficiency 3. the ratio of the work done or energy developed by a machine, engine, etc., to the energy supplied to it, usually expressed as a percentage. (Source: Dictionary.com) Therefore, "175% efficiency" means that I put in 58 Energy and get 102 Energy worth of space ninja magic out. That's what we are talking about, thank you. "Efficiency" has a technical definition. I posted it above. Cherry-picking the incorrect definition because you don't understand which definition is correct for the context tells me you are the one that needs to go back to fourth grade and learn how to properly use a dictionary. Yeah, seems like a lost cause to me. I reported him for spreading misinformation. Guys, you literally are calling stupid anyone who doesn't agree with you. That's not condescension anymore, that's plain insult inb4 lock Well... But this isn't about opinions. ^ ... what he said. It's not about opinions. This is about mathematical facts. Simple numbers like this just don't lie... We are trying to correct something here that is used very incorrectly, while you guys are stubbornly trying to keep the error in its wrong state. YOU are the guys that are reportable for justifying, defending and spreading misinformation. Edited December 23, 2015 by Azamagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 (edited) Except power efficiency does NOT work as all the other stat percentages work. Except that it works exactly like all the other stat percentages. If you have 200% power strength your abilities do double the damage. You can figure that out by looking at the ability and multiplying it by 2 (200%) Power efficiency works the same way by taking the power cost and multiplying it by .75% (75% efficiency) The numbers match for all of the stats. "Efficiency" has a technical definition. I posted it above. Cherry-picking the incorrect definition because you don't understand which definition is correct for the context tells me you are the one that needs to go back to fourth grade and learn how to properly use a dictionary. It also has a normal definition, that you are oblivious too. A normal definition that fits the way it works to a T. But atlas you refuse to be content until its convoluted and confusing to most people. One thing you guys fail to realize is what power efficiency looks like if a warframes power isn't maxed. A normal streamline adds 30% power reduction. This would look like +42% efficiency. This would throw most people off as their warframe stat would say 142% efficiency but only reduces energy cost by 30%. These numbers don't match and most normal people would feel ripped off as the number they see isn't the number they get. However all the other stats like power strength/duration/range match their respective stats making the game even more confusing. If you equip a mod that gives you +30% power strength guess what? The ability does 30% more damage. With streamline under that system it would be the Only stat that the numbers don't match the effect. This would be heavily confusing for new players or people who don't have a nice flat number of power efficiency. If a warframe had +30% to every stat it would look like this 130% power strength (30% boost to ability damage, Matches number) 130% power duration (30% boost to ability duration, Matches number) 142% power efficiency (30% reduction cost to ability, Does not match) 130% power range (30% boost to range, matches number) And your asking noobs and most of the majority of players to guess which stat is not like the others? Especially when you guys are using the "technical" definition of efficiency and not the normal definition like regular normal people? Yeah, seems like a lost cause to me. I reported him for spreading misinformation. Reported back. Edited December 24, 2015 by (PS4)UltraKardas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackVortex Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 Guys, you literally are calling stupid anyone who doesn't agree with you. That's not condescension anymore, that's plain insult inb4 lock if calling someone stupid who doesn't agree 1+1=2 is a plain insult, then so be it but I didn't call him stupid then again, the fact I didn't call him stupid doesn't mean he isn't :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackVortex Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 (edited) Except that it works exactly like all the other stat percentages. If you have 200% power strength your abilities do double the damage. You can figure that out by looking at the ability and multiplying it by 2 (200%) Power efficiency works the same way by taking the power cost and multiplying it by .75% (75% efficiency) The numbers match for all of the stats. It also has a normal definition, that you are oblivious too. A normal definition that fits the way it works to a T. But atlas you refuse to be content until its convoluted and confusing to most people. One thing you guys fail to realize is what power efficiency looks like if a warframes power isn't maxed. A normal streamline adds 30% power reduction. This would look like +42% efficiency. This would throw most people off as their warframe stat would say 142% efficiency but only reduces energy cost by 30%. These numbers don't match and most normal people would feel ripped off as the number they see isn't the number they get. However all the other stats like power strength/duration/range match their respective stats making the game even more confusing. If you equip a mod that gives you +30% power strength guess what? The ability does 30% more damage. With streamline under that system it would be the Only stat that the numbers don't match the effect. This would be heavily confusing for new players or people who don't have a nice flat number of power efficiency. If a warframe had +30% to every stat it would look like this 130% power strength (30% boost to ability damage, Matches number) 130% power duration (30% boost to ability duration, Matches number) 142% power efficiency (30% reduction cost to ability, Does not match) 130% power range (30% boost to range, matches number) And your asking noobs and most of the majority of players to guess which stat is not like the others? Especially when you guys are using the "technical" definition of efficiency and not the normal definition like regular normal people? Reported back. well if I had a base of 100 damage and would add +100% power strength I would have 200 damage now if I would add another +100% power strength, since I already have +200% it would mean I would have +400% power strength = 400 damage! that's intuitive! but wait! the game only gives me 300 damage WTH!!! Maybe DE should change that as well! Edited December 24, 2015 by BlackVortex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 well if I had a base of 100 damage and would add +100% power strength I would have 200 damage now if I would add another +100% power strength, since I already have +200% it would mean I would have +400% power strength = 400 damage! that's intuitive! but wait! the game only gives me 300 damage WTH!!! Maybe DE should change that as well! right.... cause 100% + 100% + 100% = 400% Percentages are additive, not multiplicative 300% power strength = 3x power strength You guys want 142% to equal 30% when no other power stat works like that. if calling someone stupid who doesn't agree 1+1=2 is a plain insult, then so be it but I didn't call him stupid then again, the fact I didn't call him stupid doesn't mean he isn't :) Just cause i didn't call you ignorant doesnt mean you aren't* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarticulate Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Especially when you guys are using the "technical" definition of efficiency and not the normal definition like regular normal people? There is a definition of "efficiency" that is specifically used in mathematics to have a specific meaning. Why would you choose to blatantly ignore a definition of a word that gives it an unambiguous mathematical meaning when doing math? Here is an egregious example of blatantly ignoring a technical definition and using a non-technical definition while doing math: minus 2. lacking or without: a book minus its title page. (Source: Dictionary.com) I now argue that 10 minus 1 is 0. So why is it wrong to insist that math should use the technical definition of "efficiency", but is it not wrong to insist that math should use the technical definition of "minus"? Or are you trying to argue that Warframe stats are have nothing to do with math? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autongnosis Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 (edited) The problem with efficiency and cost and its terminology is not one of maths actually, but of naming and consistency. The whole problem stems from a couple of facts: - All percentages displayed in the arsenal follow the rule "the bigger the better" - DE decided to add a table which displays total percentages instead of bonuses (ie 212% PS instead of +112% PS), which causes no problems for all stats bar efficiency where that 175% has absolutely no relation to its actual effect. - Changing efficiency to display the actual efficiency numbers would lead to a bonker situation where the total efficiency in the arsenal should display 400% but the sum of Streamline+FE values maxed should give 1000%. - Let alone for the fact that at that point having a fixed efficiency penalty number for Blind Rage would be a mistake from a matgematical standpoint. - Changing efficiency to cost would break the rule of "the bigger the better" for just one metric which admittedly would be counterintuitive At this point i believe the better solution would be to make the column where the metrics are displayed longer (make it as high as te screen reducing the space for uninstalled mods) and display the current ability screen in a smaller formatting instead of the metrics. So you could actually see the effects of modding on your skill without all these problems of naming and counting. And at that point you could change the naming in te mods themselves by inverting the sign and calling it power cost, because you'd SEE in the arsenal just how much the ability would cost, doing away with all this efficiency problem. EDIT: i see this post is riddled with typos, damn my phone's keyboard. I'll correct them as soon as i get home... Edited December 24, 2015 by Autongnosis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naftal Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Except that it works exactly like all the other stat percentages. If you have 200% power strength your abilities do double the damage. You can figure that out by looking at the ability and multiplying it by 2 (200%) Power efficiency works the same way by taking the power cost and multiplying it by .75% (75% efficiency) The numbers match for all of the stats. You still don't get what efficiency means? This is completely different from other power stats. I can't believe you are still arguing against this. When will the sudden realization and face palm happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[DE]Grzegorz Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 (edited) I can't believe you are still arguing against this. When will the sudden realization and face palm happen? Never, because being wrong is less humiliating than admitting a mistake. Edited December 24, 2015 by Mofixil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azamagon Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 (edited) 1) Except that it works exactly like all the other stat percentages. If you have 200% power strength your abilities do double the damage. You can figure that out by looking at the ability and multiplying it by 2 (200%) Power efficiency works the same way by taking the power cost and multiplying it by .75% (75% efficiency) The numbers match for all of the stats. 2) A normal streamline adds 30% power reduction. This would look like +42% efficiency. This would throw most people off as their warframe stat would say 142% efficiency but only reduces energy cost by 30%. These numbers don't match and most normal people would feel ripped off as the number they see isn't the number they get. However all the other stats like power strength/duration/range match their respective stats making the game even more confusing. If you equip a mod that gives you +30% power strength guess what? The ability does 30% more damage. With streamline under that system it would be the Only stat that the numbers don't match the effect. This would be heavily confusing for new players or people who don't have a nice flat number of power efficiency. If a warframe had +30% to every stat it would look like this 130% power strength (30% boost to ability damage, Matches number) 130% power duration (30% boost to ability duration, Matches number) 142% power efficiency (30% reduction cost to ability, Does not match) 130% power range (30% boost to range, matches number) And your asking noobs and most of the majority of players to guess which stat is not like the others? Especially when you guys are using the "technical" definition of efficiency and not the normal definition like regular normal people? 3) Reported back. 1) I can tell you really don't get it. Do you know the expression "diminishing returns"? I already explained this to you before that, in essence, all math in this game follows that mechanic (damage, fire rate, reload etc) in that you need more of the resource than before whenever you wanna double it, except for the current Power Efficiency. More and more of it makes it stronger and stronger. No other formula in this game works that way. And, seriously, that comparison is NOT the same math. I'll even throw in some more examples: * Power Strength causes you to simply multiply to increase a value you want more of. Standard math in most parts of the game. This gets diminishing returns and thus is healthy math. * With Reload Speed mods you have reduction of something that you want less of, using division. Looks a bit more advanced, but this actually is just the inverted version of the Power Strength one, which in essence turns out to be the same if you look at the formulas thoroughly (If you convert the formulas to speak of reloadRATE, instead of reloadTIME then the formulas are actually exactly the same simple multiplications as in the Power Strength one). This gets diminishing returns thus is also healthy math. * But, with Power Efficiency you REDUCE something with the help of multiplication! This does not grant diminishing returns, it gives EXPONENTIAL benefit. Very different math, which is not healthy. You can tell it is not good, because it requires caps to not reach infinite (or even negative) costs. Understand NOW? 2) Except with such a change the mods would change in values and everything as well. +30% Power Efficiency would be +30% Power Efficiency and would display as a 30% bonus Power Efficiency. The whole "power cost" part would go away, that would be something you have to figure out yourself (very easily calculated too, it would work just like Reload Speed stuff. As a little guideline, for halving your power cost, you'd need +100% Power Efficiency.). So it would actually be like this: 130% power strength (30% boost to ability damage, Matches number) 130% power duration (30% boost to ability duration. Matches number) 130% power efficiency (30% boost to ability efficiency, Matches number) (Equates to about 23% power cost reduction) 130% power range (30% boost to ability range. Matches number) And if you are gonna rant about that part again that "it would make Power Efficiency require more than Power Strength to deal X% more damage blablabla", no it wouldn't. You are just looking at it from the wrong way, as you are comparing one value to an inverted one. That +100% Power Efficiency gives you half the energycost (with the old formula) means just the same as +100% Power Strength halves the amount of casts you need to deal the same damage as before. THAT would be a fair comparison. If you say that +100% Power Strength gives you +100% damage, then you should also say (if the formulas are change to what OP suggests) that +100% Power Efficiency gives you +100% more casts. Once again, THAT is how you compare it correctly. You can't whine that +100% Power Efficiency "only" halves your power cost, because, like I said before, that has to be compared to that +100% Power Strength halves the amount of casts needed to do the same damage as before. I will repeat this because this is important: You just can't compare a value directly to an inverted value! 3) For what lol? Im trying to correct some huge errors here, what would they do to me? Tell me to "stop being helpful!" xD Edited December 24, 2015 by Azamagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 You still don't get what efficiency means? This is completely different from other power stats. I can't believe you are still arguing against this. When will the sudden realization and face palm happen? What people can't get over is there math elitism, and how that effects other people. Like I mentioned before, But people ignored cause they can't argue against something that makes sense, Is that all warframe ability stats are as intuitive as humanly possible right now. a single +30% mods adds 30% to whatever the respective stat it. However, to make power efficiency Politically "Technically" correct for our math snobs. to get the same 30% energy reduction it would need to give 142% power efficiency. If all your warframe stats look like this: 130% power strength 130% power duration 142% power efficiency 130% power range Most people will assume they have 42% power reduction as every other warframe power stat gives you exactly what you think you are getting. Changing the way efficiency numbers look wouldn't change anything about warframe as it would still cap at 75% power reduction. However, the number displayed for our warframe's power efficiency stat would make it much harder to determine the power cost for our abilities. So following the logic of math snobs. For the same 60% power cost reduction people would need 250% power efficiency. So heres the real problem. Streamline to keep its 30% power reduction would need to add 42% efficiency. A maxed fleeting expertise would need to give 150% to keep the power reduction cost at 60% Now... what happens when you equip both of those mods? You get a maximum of 66% power efficiency. The efficiency cap is now meaningless as there is no way to effectively reach that cap unless you add a mod that gives a warframe 108% efficiency. So your either advocating for a power efficiency nerf, which most people are opposed to as they like using their space ninja powers, or you haven't thought this through. The rest of a warframes abilities don't get any harder to upgrade though. With stat upgrades being additive percentages, its really easy to increase a stat so its does 50% more damage or 3x more damage, and depending on the ability ( e vamp ) there will never be a diminishing return. So your arbitrarily making power efficiency weaker when theres no reason for it. So are you trying to nerf power efficiency? There is no easy way to change the numbers of power efficiency without a nerf of some sort. And an absorb nyx loses her energy fast enough as it is, so you won't get very far in that. You still don't get what efficiency means? When will you understand there is more then one definition of efficiency? Never cause you refuse to learn anything. There is a definition of "efficiency" that is specifically used in mathematics to have a specific meaning. Why would you choose to blatantly ignore a definition of a word that gives it an unambiguous mathematical meaning when doing math? Here is an egregious example of blatantly ignoring a technical definition and using a non-technical definition while doing math: minus 2. lacking or without: a book minus its title page. (Source: Dictionary.com) I now argue that 10 minus 1 is 0. So why is it wrong to insist that math should use the technical definition of "efficiency", but is it not wrong to insist that math should use the technical definition of "minus"? Or are you trying to argue that Warframe stats are have nothing to do with math? Kind of a bad example. In our case, both definitions are the correct use of the term as both definitions of the term efficiency are applicable in our scenario. 1) I can tell you really don't get it. Do you know the expression "diminishing returns"? I already explained this to you before that, in essence, all math in this game follows that mechanic (damage, fire rate, reload etc) in that you need more of the resource than before whenever you wanna double it, except for the current Power Efficiency. More and more of it makes it stronger and stronger. No other formula in this game works that way. And, seriously, that comparison is NOT the same math. I'll even throw in some more examples: * Power Strength causes you to simply multiply to increase a value you want more of. Standard math in most parts of the game. This gets diminishing returns and thus is healthy math. * With Reload Speed mods you have reduction of something that you want less of, using division. Looks a bit more advanced, but this actually is just the inverted version of the Power Strength one, which in essence turns out to be the same if you look at the formulas thoroughly (If you convert the formulas to speak of reloadRATE, instead of reloadTIME then the formulas are actually exactly the same simple multiplications as in the Power Strength one). This gets diminishing returns thus is also healthy math. * But, with Power Efficiency you REDUCE something with the help of multiplication! This does not grant diminishing returns, it gives EXPONENTIAL benefit. Very different math, which is not healthy. You can tell it is not good, because it requires caps to not reach infinite (or even negative) costs. Understand NOW? 2) Except with such a change the mods would change in values and everything as well. +30% Power Efficiency would be +30% Power Efficiency and would display as a 30% bonus Power Efficiency. The whole "power cost" part would go away, that would be something you have to figure out yourself (very easily calculated too, it would work just like Reload Speed stuff. As a little guideline, for halving your power cost, you'd need +100% Power Efficiency.). So it would actually be like this: 130% power strength (30% boost to ability damage, Matches number) 130% power duration (30% boost to ability duration. Matches number) 130% power efficiency (30% boost to ability efficiency, Matches number) (Equates to about 23% power cost reduction) 130% power range (30% boost to ability range. Matches number) And if you are gonna rant about that part again that "it would make Power Efficiency require more than Power Strength to deal X% more damage blablabla", no it wouldn't. You are just looking at it from the wrong way, as you are comparing one value to an inverted one. That +100% Power Efficiency gives you half the energycost (with the old formula) means just the same as +100% Power Strength halves the amount of casts you need to deal the same damage as before. THAT would be a fair comparison. If you say that +100% Power Strength gives you +100% damage, then you should also say (if the formulas are change to what OP suggests) that +100% Power Efficiency gives you +100% more casts. Once again, THAT is how you compare it correctly. You can't whine that +100% Power Efficiency "only" halves your power cost, because, like I said before, that has to be compared to that +100% Power Strength halves the amount of casts needed to do the same damage as before. I will repeat this because this is important: You just can't compare a value directly to an inverted value! 3) For what lol? Im trying to correct some huge errors here, what would they do to me? Tell me to "stop being helpful!" xD If 30% power efficiency only gives 23% power cost reduction, It does not match the number like our other stat modifiers. If you want to upgrade an ability power strength by 50%, 100% or 200% its really pretty easy. Each stat adds an additive bonus of a percentage number. I can throw on transient Fortitude to increase an ability by 50% Blind Range to increase it 99%. Blind Rage and Transient Fortitude will never become less effective or more effective. They will always increase an abilities damage by their listed value. Your proposed efficiency change would be a nerf no matter how you look at it. The current Power efficiency follows the same logic as all the other mods except there is a cap from it getting too powerful so people aren't spamming powers too much. But so the game still feels different from other shooters where abilities have much longer cooldowns and are less powerful. Streamline reduces power cost by 30% An Intensify Increases power ability damage by 30% They are identical in how they add 30% to an aspect of an ability and work in the same way by upgrading an ability by adding a hard 30%. You could equip more mods boost each of the effected stats and neither would become harder to upgrade. I can add 45% to each of them and they will look exactly the same in their numbers and have the exact same % effect on their respective traits. Power Strength doesn't require 150% more power strength to go from a 60% increase to 75% increase. Now do you understand? Or gonna keep riding that imaginary high horse. And you reported for me for being helpful, I reported you for abusive behavior :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naftal Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Streamline reduces power cost by 30% An Intensify Increases power ability damage by 30% They are identical in how they add 30% to an aspect of an ability and work in the same way by upgrading an ability by adding a hard 30%. You could equip more mods boost each of the effected stats and neither would become harder to upgrade. I can add 45% to each of them and they will look exactly the same in their numbers and have the exact same % effect on their respective traits. Power Strength doesn't require 150% more power strength to go from a 60% increase to 75% increase. They are not identical. The other REDUCES something and only the other one adds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 They are not identical. The other REDUCES something and only the other one adds. One adds power efficiency the other adds power ability damage. They are identical in how they function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azamagon Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) -snip- All that math, dedicated just for you, and you STILL don't get it? And you are STILL referring to it as if Power Cost Reduction, the one I just explained about with its exponentail overpoweredness and how it doesn't function at all like any other formula in this game (which all have Diminishing Returns in contrast), was the guideline one should follow when I made it clear that you should NOT base Power Efficiency on its current overpowered functionality. EDIT: One last try. 30% Power Efficiency, if it reduced power cost by 23% (as in, power cost / 1,3) it would be as powerful as giving an ability a 30% Power Strength boost, because that would mean you need to cast it 23% less often to deal the same damage as before installing the strengthmod. In contrast, 30% Power Efficiency as it is now with its Power-Cost-Reduction-formula, is equivalent to installing a 30% Power Strength mod but dealing 43% more damage with the ability instead. That's the last little education I'm giving you. If you can grasp that part, then re-read my post again. It's not difficult to grasp that we are indeed trying to make Power Efficiency weaker (of course), because we are trying to make it more equal to Power Strength/Duration/Range instead of letting it remain as OP as it is right now. Note: Of course numbers and abilities need changing after that too, that is a given. And you didn't even get that all that talk about the reporting... wow. *WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH* Edited December 25, 2015 by Azamagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 All that math, dedicated just for you, and you STILL don't get it? And you are STILL referring to it as if Power Cost Reduction, the one I just explained about with its exponentail overpoweredness and how it doesn't function at all like any other formula in this game (which all have Diminishing Returns in contrast), was the guideline one should follow when I made it clear that you should NOT base Power Efficiency on its current overpowered functionality. EDIT: One last try. 30% Power Efficiency, if it reduced power cost by 23% (as in, power cost / 1,3) it would be as powerful as giving an ability a 30% Power Strength boost, because that would mean you need to cast it 23% less often to deal the same damage as before installing the strengthmod. In contrast, 30% Power Efficiency as it is now with its Power-Cost-Reduction-formula, is equivalent to installing a 30% Power Strength mod but dealing 43% more damage with the ability instead. That's the last little education I'm giving you. If you can grasp that part, then re-read my post again. It's not difficult to grasp that we are indeed trying to make Power Efficiency weaker (of course), because we are trying to make it more equal to Power Strength/Duration/Range instead of letting it remain as OP as it is right now. Note: Of course numbers and abilities need changing after that too, that is a given. And you didn't even get that all that talk about the reporting... wow. *WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH* You and I will never agree, 23% does not equal 1/3 to me and it never will. I like my abilities to be straightforward where 30% power strength does 30% more damage and 30% efficiency means i can use an ability for 30% of the power cost. Its intuitive keeps power efficiency as strong as it is and doesn't make it overlycomplicated like your method. I don't use power mods to use an ability 23% less to do the same amount of damage. I use power mods to increase my damage to get the maximum effect of whatever power i want, i.e. Getting the most out of vex armor/warcry/sonar/exalted blade. I like it where i can equip fleeting expertise and streamline and get 75% efficiency vs your math which gets us 66% needing an additional 108% efficiency to hit the same 75% cap. If you want to nerf power efficiency to make it confusing unintuitive and difficult to increase ( unlike power strength/range/duration, that can easily boost ability stats over 75% unlike your power efficiency ) Go somewhere else. As for me i like power efficiency as it is as its just as good and works the same way the other ability stat modifiers work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[DE]Grzegorz Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I like my abilities to be straightforward where 30% power strength does 30% more damage and 30% efficiency means i can use an ability for 30% of the power cost. Its intuitive keeps power efficiency as strong as it is and doesn't make it overlycomplicated like your method. Oh god... 30%<100% If you have 30% strength, you deal 30% of original damage, not 30% more (or 130%). Having 30% efficiency means that you have to put over 3x more resources to have the same effect. In terms of Warframe however, it means that power cost is 170%. People have no problem whatsoever with "overcomplicated" solutions like e.g. reload speed that works exactly like this (and even if they have, explaining it once is enough to shut them up). You sir, however, insist on being completely wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naftal Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 One adds power efficiency the other adds power ability damage. They are identical in how they function. Except the other one doesn't really add power efficiency. It reduces power costs. Efficiency doesn't work like that but we've told you that many times already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azamagon Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) -snip- If you want to nerf power efficiency to make it confusing unintuitive and difficult to increase ( unlike power strength/range/duration, that can easily boost ability stats over 75% unlike your power efficiency ) Go somewhere else. As for me i like power efficiency as it is as its just as good and works the same way the other ability stat modifiers work. But we want to nerf efficiency so it DOES work like power strength/range/duration, unlike how it works now. Let me show a bunch of numerical examples, which I really hope makes you understand this all a bit better and to hopefully cure your confusion. The important parts you really need to look at is when I use the words "more/quicker" and "less". Power Strength (Gonna call it PS), how it works: +30% PS = 30% more ability damage compared to when unmodded = 23,1% less casts needed than before to deal the same damage as when unmodded +50% PS = 50% more ability damage compared to when unmodded = 33,3% less casts needed than before to deal the same damage as when unmodded +75% PS = 75% more ability damage compared to when unmodded = 42,9% less casts needed than before to deal the same damage as when unmodded +100% PS = 100% more ability damage compared to when unmodded = 50% less casts needed than before to deal the same damage as when unmodded +300% PS = 300% more ability damage compared to when unmodded = 75% less casts needed than before to deal the same damage as when unmodded Reloadspeed (Gonna call it RS), how it works: +30% RS = 30% quicker reloadspeed compared to when unmodded = 23,1% less time needed than before to reload the same amount of times as when unmodded +50% RS = 50% quicker reloadspeed compared to when unmodded = 33,3% less time needed than before to reload the same amount of times as when unmodded +75% RS = 75% quicker reloadspeed compared to when unmodded = 42,9% less time needed than before to reload the same amount of times as when unmodded +100% RS = 100% quicker reloadspeed compared to when unmodded = 50% less time needed than before to reload the same amount of times as when unmodded +300% RS = 300% quicker reloadspeed compared to when unmodded = 75% less time needed than before to reload the same amount of times as when unmodded As you can see, when you use the right mathematical comparisons, reloadspeed does the same amount of percentile bonus as Power Strength does (and fire rate, crits etc). They all suffer from healthy, basic diminishing returns. Power Effiiency (Gonna call it PE), how it works right now (if caps were removed): +30% PE = 42,9% more amount of casts compared to when unmodded = 30% less abilitycost compared to when unmodded +50% PE = 100% more amount of casts compared to when unmodded = 50% less abilitycost compared to when unmodded +75% PE = 300% more amount of casts compared to when unmodded = 75% less abilitycost compared to when unmodded +100% PE = Unlimited more amount of casts compared to when unmodded = 100% less abilitycost compared to when unmodded +300% PE = Unlimited more amount of casts compared to when unmodded, as well as giving energy back = 100% less abilitycost compared to when unmodded, even giving you energy back (200% of the cost comes back, so an ultimate would give you 200 energy!) These PE-numbers look VERY different from PS and RE (and everything else for that matter). But now look at this: Power Effiiency (Still gonna call it PE), how we suggest how it should work (no caps are needed for this version): +30% PE = 30% more amount of casts compared to when unmodded = 23,1% less abilitycost compared to when unmodded +50% PE = 50% more amount of casts compared to when unmodded = 33,3% less abilitycost compared to when unmodded +75% PE = 75% more amount of casts compared to when unmodded = 42,9% less abilitycost compared to when unmodded +100% PE = 100% more amount of casts compared to when unmodded = 50% less abilitycost compared to when unmodded +300% PE = 300% more amount of casts compared to when unmodded = 75% less abilitycost compared to when unmodded With these changes, PE would finally work like everything else in this game! Ofc abilities would need some changing along with that, as well as the mods. For example, to reduce some of the salt from such changes, Streamline could be buffed to give +45% Power Efficiency, while Fleeting Expertise couid be buffed to give +90% Power Efficiency and -45% Power Duration. Just Streamline would then give a cost reduction of 31% (very similar to now), Fleeting Expertise alone would give you a cost reduction of 47,4% (a bit less than now, but also with a less severe penalty) and together they would give a cost reduction of 57,3% (in contrast to the absurdly powerful theoretical 90% cost reduction, although capped at 75%, thankfully). That's still a very good outcome, but it is nowhere near as broken as the mods are right now. EDIT: And a Prime Streamline would also then be added with less insane consequences. With the regular Streamline at 45%, the Prime one would be at 82,5%. Thus a Primed Streamline and a Fleeting Expertise would yield 172,5% Power Efficiency, which equates to a 63,3% cost reduction. I could totally live with those numbers. Edited December 25, 2015 by Azamagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackVortex Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share Posted December 25, 2015 - why do you still try to convince him of facts? he's either blatantly ignorant or just trolling I'm going for the latter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now