Naramon's Shadow Step Is Overpowered

[LurkenLurker]

wanting more endgame content, and wanting more challenging endgame are 2 different thing, can you put the link please / confirm that both of you talk about the same thing ?

To many devstreams to tell you exactly but u18 is basically the fruit of all of de player feedback we got lore focus and now we need some balance 

[styxonfire]

yeah but in that way you can't spamming melee since you got to pay attention if you don't want to get hurt

Except you still somewhat can. The only thing that'll do is way more active/interactive version of this mod: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Agility_Drift

Since its not that the AI has a better idea of where you are, its just that it'll make the AI think you're still where they last saw you, and where you last hit them.

Either Shadow Step is capped at 5-7 seconds of invisibility or more units like those "Cat ladies" that can see you when invisible on all factions, with decent spawn count. Then again, its easier to implement a duration adjustment than an AI's behavior or even a unit type.

Edited December 30, 2015 by styxonfire

[EvilChaosKnight]

Oh man, 1-man theatre is still going.

So, where's any sort of a vid of you performing amazingly well on Interception, Defence or Excavation. Bonus points if solo.

 

Until then, this topic is still a waste of time and forum space.

[Pizzarugi]

I dont know basically all the devstreams were Rebecca reads questions from players wanting more quest lore and endgame game based systems focus is one such system  but can be attainable at such a low mastery its not funny. Now if all of the focus system were unlock at higher ranks i would be ok

Personally, I've always advocated for more usefulness of MR besides simply increasing daily trade cap and syndicate rep. We have the feature, so instead of nerfing things into the ground (like the synoid gammacor), why don't we gate powerful content behind higher MR?

If DE were to suddenly gate Focus/The Second Dream behind MR15+, I wouldn't be upset at all. In fact, I'd be highly encouraged to actually work my way there.

[LurkenLurker]

Personally, I've always advocated for more usefulness of MR besides simply increasing daily trade cap and syndicate rep. We have the feature, so instead of nerfing things into the ground (like the synoid gammacor), why don't we gate powerful content behind higher MR?

If DE were to suddenly gate Focus/The Second Dream behind MR15+, I wouldn't be upset at all. In fact, I'd be highly encouraged to actually work my way there.

Good we agree on something 

[AM-Bunny]

I would honestly rather see Shadow Step re-worked into something else entirely rather than tweaked.

 

The main problem with it is that it's so niche. It only functions when performing a Critical Hit with a Melee weapon, so common sense would dictate that you should use a high crit melee right? Then it becomes extremely powerful; perhaps too powerful.

 

It's literally: get a huge payoff for this extremely niche playstyle, or get nothing at all from it. That would be like a power that was "become invincible against enemies more than 30m away while using Kraken". That just says bad design to me. 

[styxonfire]

Oh man, 1-man theatre is still going.

So, where's any sort of a vid of you performing amazingly well on Interception, Defence or Excavation. Bonus points if solo.

 

Until then, this topic is still a waste of time and forum space.

I don't have to do that because the fact that 10 seconds of invisibility that can be chained over and over again SHOULD ALREADY GIVE YOU A DECENT IDEA ON HOW IT WOULD PERFORM IN INTERCEPTION, DEFENSE, OR EXCAVATION.

If this topic is a waste of time and forum space, why are you "wasting" your time on this thread?

[LurkenLurker]

Oh man, 1-man theatre is still going.

So, where's any sort of a vid of you performing amazingly well on Interception, Defence or Excavation. Bonus points if solo.

 

Until then, this topic is still a waste of time and forum space.

It depends you can use a rhino with this passive to get relivtivly high in a defense Just mod him for high stasis duration and nouthing shoulg be able to touch the pod

[styxonfire]

I would honestly rather see Shadow Step re-worked into something else entirely rather than tweaked.

 

The main problem with it is that it's so niche. It only functions when performing a Critical Hit with a Melee weapon, so common sense would dictate that you should use a high crit melee right? Then it becomes extremely powerful; perhaps too powerful.

 

It's literally: get a huge payoff for this extremely niche playstyle, or get nothing at all from it. That would be like a power that was "become invincible against enemies more than 30m away while using Kraken". That just says bad design to me. 

You can still get it to work with quick melee on weapons like Orthos Prime. To get it to work means all you have to do is cast Mind Spike just ONCE and CRIT! Guess what? You can do it over and over again.

[Soketsu]

Oh man, 1-man theatre is still going.

So, where's any sort of a vid of you performing amazingly well on Interception, Defence or Excavation. Bonus points if solo.

 

Until then, this topic is still a waste of time and forum space.

it seem i'm not the only one who ask for this videos

 

at least styx, even if you don't put video just try solo def 60  , just try it with only your melee weapon, of course you can use your abilities (in fact you really gonna to need it)

 

Except you still somewhat can. The only thing that'll do is way more active/interactive version of this mod: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Agility_Drift

Since its not that the AI has a better idea of where you are, its just that it'll make the AI think you're still where they last saw you, and where you last hit them.

Either Shadow Step is capped at 5-7 seconds of invisibility or more units like those "Cat ladies" that can see you when invisible on all factions, with decent spawn count. Then again, its easier to implement a duration adjustment than an AI's behavior or even a unit type.

 

you gonna to love bomber and aoe eximus in that case

 

I would honestly rather see Shadow Step re-worked into something else entirely rather than tweaked.

 

The main problem with it is that it's so niche. It only functions when performing a Critical Hit with a Melee weapon, so common sense would dictate that you should use a high crit melee right? Then it becomes extremely powerful; perhaps too powerful.

 

It's literally: get a huge payoff for this extremely niche playstyle, or get nothing at all from it. That would be like a power that was "become invincible against enemies more than 30m away while using Kraken". That just says bad design to me. 

invincibilty and invisibility are 2 different things, specially against toxic eximus

Edited December 30, 2015 by Soketsu

[LurkenLurker]

it seem i'm not the only one who ask for this videos

 

at least styx, even if you don't put video just try solo def 60  , just try it with only your melee weapon, of course you can use your abilities (in fact you really gonna to need it)

 

 

you gonna to love bomber and aoe eximus in that case

 

invincibilty and invisibility are 2 different things, specially against toxic eximus

He will need to use abilitys but like i said if the shadow step lets you free up alot of mod space take rhino max his duration the stasis will lock a mobs down for over 22 seconds and be can be re casted

Edited December 30, 2015 by LurkenLurker

[styxonfire]

it seem i'm not the only one who ask for this videos

 

at least styx, even if you don't put video just try solo def 60  , just try it with only your melee weapon, of course you can use your abilities (in fact you really gonna to need it)

 

 

you gonna to love bomber and aoe eximus in that case

 

invincibilty and invisibility are 2 different things, specially against toxic eximus

The point of Shadow Step is how it replaces a crap ton of warframes' defensive abilities if they are inadequate and how it enhances the offensive abilities of a crapton of Frames. Can you understand that? Thats why I don't need to do high tier defense missions to prove my point, because if a Hydroid can do that much, IMAGINE WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU STRAP SHADOW STEP ON A WARFRAME THAT CAN UTILIZE IT BETTER THAN HYDROID OR EVEN LOKI HIMSELF?

When was the last time an Eximus actually one shot someone with its poison, AOE fire, even in late game? And what? The Bomber? What the hell is this? You mean Bombard? Whatever he has is effectively an Ogris that can't track anything.

Invincibility also means nothing can harm you. With invisibility and how the AI works right now, with no one shooting you? Thats essentially the same.

[----Fenrir----]

I really don't see what your problem is.

 

- Shadow-step requires using a melee weapon

- Melee weapon damage alone gets you to 60 minutes of T3/4 Survival at best

- Invisibility timer can not be refreshed while active leading to moments of visibility that will lead to deaths against higher level enemies

 

I don't see any problem in allowing more frames to use melee effectively up to a certain point (~ lvl 100 enemies). That's 60 minutes T3 Survival which is nothing considering that Valkyr can do 2 hours without even trying.

[styxonfire]

I really don't see what your problem is.

 

- Shadow-step requires using a melee weapon

- Melee weapon damage alone gets you to 60 minutes of T3/4 Survival at best

- Invisibility timer can not be refreshed while active leading to moments of visibility that will lead to deaths against higher level enemies

 

I don't see any problem in allowing more frames to use melee effectively up to a certain point (~ lvl 100 enemies). That's 60 minutes T3 Survival which is nothing considering that Valkyr can do 2 hours without even trying.

-Just because Shadow Step requires using a melee weapon, it doesn't totally mean you're stuck with that. Quick melee anyone?

-Melee weapon damage appears to be more than sufficient in cheesing an hour in T4 Survival.

-Invisibility timer can be CHAINED. Once its out, hit again, its back again. With 10 seconds of invisibility, thats more than enough time for anyone to do whatever the hell they can and chain it again.

Valkyr is in a different criteria altogether. But if you wanna shove her in, or the likes of her into this argument, add in Shadow Step and you've eliminated her problem with Nullifiers, thus replacing Primed Reach (to hit a nullifier's bubble and shrink it down) for another damage mod. If 2 hours is easy, you can effectively add 5 more minutes up to an hour more than what she can accomplish now. But thats not the point. its how other frames will be able to synergize with Shadow Step, making use of Loki's base invisibility (though Shadow Step is two seconds less in duration), and how its able to effectively replace Nezha's Warding Halo, Rhino's Iron Skin, Hyrdoid's Undertow, and whatever self-defense ability other frames have.

Edited December 30, 2015 by styxonfire

[Tigercloud]

People don't see that the core problem is Naramon itself "ALONE" can turn any frame into a Loki simply because the duration is too long.

 

Some say "Hey, you finally were able to do 1 hour T4S or cheese an end-game content with X frame yet you're ranting?" But doesn't consider the fact that Warframes has their own specialties, they need to be diverse. Wasn't that the purpose of having different Warframes? Naramon simply sh*ts on that game aspect and turns every frame into a Loki.

 

Now if you're gonna say, "Hey, at least Hydroid is now viable!" FFS Hydroid needs a rework not be forced to use Naramon to be viable aka BANDAID. How can people be so dense?

 

This. All of my this.

 

The very real problem is fixing all the other parts of the game is complicated and takes time. So bandaids like this are welcome by most, or at least many.

[(PSN)appretice]

This thread just needs to be locked. Utter silliness. Your claim is that this let's people cheese missions but for what purpose? By the time anyone is able to farm this skill to this potential they've likely already mastered basic mission endurance and can easily farm any mission to rotation c, so all roads are already open to them. No one is going to set any records with this method so there is no incentive to go this route other than to have fun. Stop trying to kill the fun, no body likes a party pooper.

Personally I think energy overflow has more game breaking potential. Atm I have energy overflow maxed and mastery maxed. After 2 and half minutes I can pop void pulse and now I'm reaping almost 7 times more energy than an energy siphon for the entire mission and can now spam skills to my hearts content provided the skill isn't a toggle but for most frames that removes the need for efficiency mods (I only use streamline now) and flow because unless your constantly using your powers you'll never really run out and if you do... wait a trivial amount of time and proceed

Honestly I like where these passives are, they feel like end game content that isn't completely trivial and useless like in most rpgs where you work hundreds of hours to get that suit of armor that raises your attack just 1 more percent. This on the other had feels like a moderate amount of work for a decent pay off.

Edited December 30, 2015 by (PS4)appretice

[styxonfire]

This. All of my this.

 

The very real problem is fixing all the other parts of the game is complicated and takes time. So bandaids like this are welcome by most, or at least many.

Well, that too. I mean, what makes a Warframe his/her own? It also hurts Loki himself because you can strap his base invisibility (albeit two seconds shorter) into something like a Nyx... who's essentially a Loki without the invisibility but with an augment... that isn't an ulti... essentially more offensive. Strap Shadow Step on Nyx, and Nyx trumps Loki. What about frames like Nova? Nova would arguably never need Wormhole as a defensive/escape mechanism. It can be used as a gap closer from where she stands to where the desired targets are in a way more encouraging matter. She can prime anyone via speed or slow without ever getting hurt. I could go on.

 

[styxonfire]

This thread just needs to be locked. Utter silliness. Your claim is that this let's people cheese missions but for what purpose? By the time anyone is able to farm this skill to this potential they've likely already mastered basic mission endurance and can easily farm any mission to rotation c, so all roads are already open to them. No one is going to set any records with this method so there is no incentive to go this route other than to have fun. Stop trying to kill the fun, no body likes a party pooper.

"Your claim is that this let's people cheese missions but for what purpose?"

Oh, I dunno, maybe it makes the game easier than it already is?

 

"By the time anyone is able to farm this skill to this potential they've likely already mastered basic mission endurance and can easily farm any mission to rotation c, so all roads are already open to them."

Yet a method exists that trumps or amplifies what method they use now. A short(er) road to cheese whats already easy.

 

"No one is going to set any records with this method so there is no incentive to go this route other than to have fun."

The fact that there's this method that even a toddler can make use of this is the problem. You can cheese anything you want because no AI is attempting to hurt you after casting Mind Spike and abusing Shadow Step. Whats the incentive? A ridiculously easy way of doing things.

"Stop trying to kill the fun, no body likes a party pooper."

I'm not killing the fun, its the fact that Shadow Step works this way is what kills the fun.

Edited December 30, 2015 by styxonfire

[Hypernaut1]

"Your claim is that this let's people cheese missions but for what purpose?"

Oh, I dunno, maybe it makes the game easier than it already is?

 

"By the time anyone is able to farm this skill to this potential they've likely already mastered basic mission endurance and can easily farm any mission to rotation c, so all roads are already open to them."

Yet a method exists that trumps or amplifies what method they use now. A short(er) road to cheese whats already easy.

 

"No one is going to set any records with this method so there is no incentive to go this route other than to have fun."

The fact that there's this method that even a toddler can make use of this is the problem. You can cheese anything you want because no AI is attempting to hurt you after casting Mind Spike and abusing Shadow Step. Whats the incentive? A ridiculously easy way of doing things.

"Stop trying to kill the fun, no body likes a party pooper."

I'm not killing the fun, its the fact that Shadow Step works this way is what kills the fun.

 

how does Naramon "amplify" ones ability to cheese t4survival? As far as i remember, players would just back themselves into a pipe and spam abilities at an enemy bottleneck. Going invisible on melee crit does not enhance that in any way- it just changes what available tools a player has.

 

If anything, it allows the player to do something MORE active than hide in a safe spot.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Hypernaut1

[styxonfire]

how does Naramon "amplify" ones ability to cheese t4survival? As far as i remember, players would just back themselves into a pipe and spam abilities at an enemy bottleneck. Going invisible on melee crit does not enhance that in any way- it just changes what available tools a player has.

 

If anything, it allows the player to do something MORE active than hide in a safe spot.

Since it does allow the player to be more active, how about strapping it on to frames that can better utilize invisibility? Like, I dunno, frames like Nyx, Nova, Ember, Atlas, Ash (yes, he can utilize this very well), Rhino, a Frost, Saryn, *insert frames with AOE CC, AOE Nukes*, frames that have defensive abilities that can be replaced so there's no need to spend energy on like Zephyr, Mesa, etc..., and further enhance frames like Excal (he won't ever need QT), Wukong (won't ever need Defy), Valkyr (won't ever have to worry about Nullifiers), and Chroma (Vex Armor allegedly works with self damage. Couple self damage with the alleged stealth multiplier and see a crapton of numbers). 2 hours solo can be done before Shadow Step came in, but how much longer will one be able to go/last with Shadow Step?

In team play, everyone has Loki's base invisibility (albeit two seconds shorter). It can even make a Blessing Trin's job easier since there's not much of a need to heal.

[Hypernaut1]

Since it does allow the player to be more active, how about strapping it on to frames that can better utilize invisibility? Like, I dunno, frames like Nyx, Nova, Ember, Atlas, Ash (yes, he can utilize this very well), Rhino, a Frost, Saryn, *insert frames with AOE CC, AOE Nukes*, frames that have defensive abilities that can be replaced so there's no need to spend energy on like Zephyr, Mesa, etc..., and further enhance frames like Excal (he won't ever need QT), Wukong (won't ever need Defy), Valkyr (won't ever have to worry about Nullifiers), and Chroma (Vex Armor allegedly works with self damage. Couple self damage with the alleged stealth multiplier and see a crapton of numbers). 2 hours solo can be done before Shadow Step came in, but how much longer will one be able to go/last with Shadow Step?

In team play, everyone has Loki's base invisibility (albeit two seconds shorter). It can even make a Blessing Trin's job easier since there's not much of a need to heal.

you're still under the assumption that all players will run around meleeing everything and that there will always be enough enemies clumped together. 

 

1. Melee isnt as strong as primaries, it still wont be the be all end all offensive option.

2. your over exaggeration is really hurting your argument. Players will use the passive to get out of tough spots, not to go melee only for 1 hr. Youre panicking.

[(PSN)appretice]

While QoL improvements are great, this is low low down on the list. It's an optional, late-game, toggleable passive for a skill. It's a choice, some people like cheese, some like greedy milk, and others like a challenge. If this skill offends your play style so much then simply stop using it. Atleast it's not one of the many game breaking bugs that prevent you from even launching the game...

Thread needs locked not because you can counter everyone's arguments but because you're turning it into a flame war over something stupid

[styxonfire]

Personally I think energy overflow has more game breaking potential. Atm I have energy overflow maxed and mastery maxed. After 2 and half minutes I can pop void pulse and now I'm reaping almost 7 times more energy than an energy siphon for the entire mission and can now spam skills to my hearts content provided the skill isn't a toggle but for most frames that removes the need for efficiency mods (I only use streamline now) and flow because unless your constantly using your powers you'll never really run out and if you do... wait a trivial amount of time and proceed

Honestly I like where these passives are, they feel like end game content that isn't completely trivial and useless like in most rpgs where you work hundreds of hours to get that suit of armor that raises your attack just 1 more percent. This on the other had feels like a moderate amount of work for a decent pay off.

So... how's 4 energy a second compared to 10 seconds of invisibility that can effectively replace defense abilities? How often would you have to recast defense and healing abilities compared to 10 seconds of no one bothering to kill you, even if you're at their face?

And also, thats an exaggeration on "It doesn't matter what the argument is, or what the claim is of what needs "nerfing/strengthening". Showing how it performs in T4S doesn't prove anything, but the video makers ability to sit in one place for a long period of time and pay attention to the same thing." if not false. Since Focus is unlockable at MR3 (just do Natah and The Second Dream), pick a school or farm for another focus lens (alternatively, spend 40 for that lens you want), and using this method: 

With the pay-off being something like this?

It shouldn't be powerful to the point it makes defensive abilities trivial. 4 energy a second encourages a player to use his abilities more often, while 10 seconds of invisibility that can be chained repetitively nullifies the need for defensive Warframe abilities.

What happens when you strap Shadow Step on something like a Nova? 

Oh look, a Loki with Nova's abilities. I don't see how Radial Disarm is offensively better than Molecular Prime. Hell, there were times one doesn't need to cast Molecular Prime.

[styxonfire]

While QoL improvements are great, this is low low down on the list. It's an optional, late-game, toggleable passive for a skill. It's a choice, some people like cheese, some like greedy milk, and others like a challenge. If this skill offends your play style so much then simply stop using it. Atleast it's not one of the many game breaking bugs that prevent you from even launching the game...

Thread needs locked not because you can counter everyone's arguments but because you're turning it into a flame war over something stupid

Look, the fact that you stated that there are three kinds of guys in the game means two of them are most likely abusing it. Naramon's Shadow Step is already making Warframe's difficulty easier than it already is. Referring to self-implied challenges DOESN'T FIX ANYTHING.

This became a flame war since page 1, even if I never wanted it to be like that.

Edited December 30, 2015 by styxonfire

[(PSN)appretice]

Look, the fact that you stated that there are three kinds of guys in the game means two of them are most likely abusing it. Naramon's Shadow Step is already making Warframe's difficulty easier than it already is. Referring to self-implied challenges DOESN'T FIX ANYTHING.

This became a flame war since page 1, even if I never wanted it to be like that.

Contrary to your belief, this game isn't always about what's fair or the most balanced. This thread is evidence that what is "balanced in your opinion" isnt necessarily popular with everyone. Personally I havn't used Naramon yet but this whole thread was started because YOU don't like something about the game and think that, despite you being the minority here, it should be changed to something more favorable to you. That's not how life works pal, sorry to break it to you.

Also this has (atleast in my travels), in no way, evolved into a meta, so it's far from standard practice.

Edited December 30, 2015 by (PS4)appretice