Naramon's Shadow Step Is Overpowered

[Kontrollo]

That awkward moment where Naramon does let a frame disarm people...

 

Someone else might have caught this, but this is the very case that justifies some readjustment.  There's one over the top powerful ability in the tree that's overshadowing an on-cast that can make the rest of the squad invisible and disarm any enemies that the ability is used on, abilities which should be extremely powerful in their own right.  I'm not sure if the answer is to buff the others or nerf this ability, but something is really not right.

 

Imho, iIt's alright to have that disarm and stealth because it's on the active part of the ability, which is on a high cooldown. A 10 second duration invisibility after critting, however, makes you a better Loki than Loki and that is not ok.

​

​

​I've been thinking about it for a while now, and here are some suggestions. 10 seconds might be alright if there's a different/additional condition to trigger the passive:

• Only happens after melee parry & counter.​
• Only happens when the melee combo counter increases. (Not sure, I guess that could potentially still be forever, but you'd have to pay a lot of attention to it)
• On crit as it is now, but only when the own shields are depleted. (Not entirely sure about this one, might be abusable with self damage)
• Needs a charge attack crit. (Only if it's not possible to be permanently invisible with this)
• Needs a crit on the last hit of a stance combo other than the basic one. (Only if it's not possible to be permanently invisible with this)​

​Other than that, I support simply lowering the duration to a point where it is hard to keep the stealth up. Can't test it myself, but probably in the range of 4-7 seconds at max rank.

​

​

​And if we're nerfing stuff, we should also try to buff some underwhelming aspects as well. Have a look at Tactical Strike and Deadly Intent. The former is active for 20 seconds after Mind Spike, the latter is a passive. Yet the former starts at a lower critical chance (although it seems the stepping is higher and it works for the whole team). I'd say it should be buffed to at least 15% at the lowest level.

[Miss_Fluffybutt]

ok, here are two vids of mine where im testing out naramon (not all the skills are at max) with my squishy nezha.

 

first vid here will show you that defensive skills are still helpfull even though naramon is active because of stray bullets hitting you.

it's being demonstrated here with the survival sortie melee only.

 

 

if it wasn't for warding halo i may have dropped more on my ! which tells you i didn't heavily rely on naramon to survive.

 

 

second vid are against sentients. i had more or less no problem killing lvl 30 sentients but then i went to the similcrum where you'll see lvl 50 sentients and they #rekt me so hard. i went to attack to get a high reward but despite getting the reward it didn't help me. so now i know i'll have to rely more on a higher health pool and perhaps quick thinking in order to give myself that extra chance to survive which again tells you i'm not heavily relying on naramon to survive. it helps and that's it. giving you more diversity. but it does not make you invincible.

 

i mean i had no problems surviving the sortie (for the most part) which are lvl 80+ opponents and the sentients were merely lvl 50 and i didn't stand a chance.

also in the first vid. guess who dominated the game? someone who controlled a valkyr did. so why arn't you panicking that everyone will run as a valkyr in survivals? valkyrs are considerd invincible by the community.....

 

also noticed how i used energy pads to get instant energy. why don't you ask to nerf that? it makes the game easy tooo...

see how silly your thread sounds?

Edited January 1, 2016 by Miss_Fluffybutt

[hukurokuju5]

Anyone try out madurai passives yet? 

[----Fenrir----]

Anyone try out madurai passives yet? 

 

Not worth investing points in. 30% more slash damage for example is pretty useless considering that with a fully modded weapon most is elemental damage so those 30% amount to maybe a 5% overall damage increase.

[alergiclaprosti]

 

second vid are against sentients. i had more or less no problem killing lvl 30 sentients but then i went to the similcrum where you'll see lvl 50 sentients and they #rekt me so hard. i went to attack to get a high reward but despite getting the reward it didn't help me. so now i know i'll have to rely more on a higher health pool and perhaps quick thinking in order to give myself that extra chance to survive which again tells you i'm not heavily relying on naramon to survive. it helps and that's it. giving you more diversity. but it does not make you invincible.

 

i mean i had no problems surviving the sortie (for the most part) which are lvl 80+ opponents and the sentients were merely lvl 50 and i didn't stand a chance.

also in the first vid. guess who dominated the game? someone who controlled a valkyr did. so why arn't you panicking that everyone will run as a valkyr in survivals? valkyrs are considerd invincible by the community.....

 

also noticed how i used energy pads to get instant energy. why don't you ask to nerf that? it makes the game easy tooo...

see how silly your thread sounds?

 

The game is broken against sentients at lvl 100 (the maximum that I tested) they don't seem to have a number of hits that trigger the adaptation, but a damage threshold. I tested with atk speed based DPS and, also, with an attack that kills any other enemy regardless of level or armor in 2 hits maximum, Trinity's WoL + EV combo. 

 

The sentient always adapts after a certain amount of damage taken.... meaning that you need to use at least 5 elements to kill a lvl 100 sentient.

 

Now, it's OK I can do that for one ....or two .... but what about when they'll be as common as other enemies ....and we need to do a survival against lvl 80~100 sentients ....what about than?!

Edited January 1, 2016 by alergiclaprosti

[surfingpika]

That awkward moment when you realise its the actual active component, you know, the skill that's 3min CD, that does the Disarming, not the stealth which is in question. Not some passive that's triggered outside of the actual skill. So a chance disarm every three minutes. Yeah, OP as F***.

I guess I wasn't clear.  I wasn't even saying it was super OP.  It was an attempt to point out someone not even noticing these other abilities only because Shadow Step overshadows them so much.  I reiterate that nerfing shadow step might not be the right answer.  The thing that I see is that solo T4S, while a sign of what someone could do, is actually a very bad test for this ability.  Without other people killing enemies and not being invisible and risking crossfire, the situation actually glosses over what could make Shadow Step reasonable.  At the end of the day, focus powers at least should be balanced with a 4 man squad in mind, and if it's a tool that lets a person break things solo, so be it.

[Epicagemo]

The game is broken against sentients at lvl 100 (the maximum that I tested) they don't seem to have a number of hits that trigger the adaptation, but a damage threshold. I tested with atk speed based DPS and, also, with an attack that kills any other enemy regardless of level or armor in 2 hits maximum, Trinity's WoL + EV combo. 

 

The sentient always adapts after a certain amount of damage taken.... meaning that you need to use at least 5 elements to kill a lvl 100 sentient.

 

Now, it's OK I can do that for one ....or two .... but what about when they'll be as common as other enemies ....and we need to do a survival against lvl 80~100 sentients ....what about than?!

I did a two hour tycho run the past week and saw level 400+ corpus. The sentiments that spawned then were only level 55... We won't be facing level 100 sentients unless you go to the simulacrum

[Arthravis]

It's funny because invisibility is total garbage in Dota 2 lol

 

On topic *Cough*

 

I have both the Zenurik and Naramon focus school, and unlocked both of the top used passives regarding focus. While Naramon was my first unlock, and while I love melee, I find myself using Zenurik a lot more. It's just universally a lot more useful. Does this mean Zenurik should be nerfed to Energy Siphon levels of mediocrity? Heck no, it takes a ton to get that up there. 

 

Also may I just mention, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUFF THE OTHER FOCUS SCHOOLS BEFORE NERFING THE ALREADY GOOD ONES. If we're only gonna nerf stuff then we're just gonna be left with a completely useless system that is already not so useful. Focus is flawed enough as it is, don't ask for nerfs when barely anything  is useful. We've got literally 2 passives that are worthwhile. How many available 'nodes' are there to unlock in the entirety of focus? 10 each? What's that? 50? Great, let's take 40. 2/40 useful nodes. And you're asking to nerf them? Do you see how silly that is? 

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Gotta agree, don't nerf what works, fixes what doesn't...

 

As for the Shadow Step being overpowered, nah... It's basically budget and RNG based invisibility for frames that don't have a reliable source of invisibility. Sure, with the right weapon , build and focus, you can be pretty much perma invis if you can kill stuff fast enough but you know what, so does Ash, Loki and Ivara...

 

In high level situations, there's invisible frames, and frames that have near invincibility or damage mitigation (Rhino, Chroma, Limbo, Zephyr, Wu-Kong), and so on... To me shadow step allows a breather for frames that are less tanky, giving them a chance to perhaps mitigate damage by staying invisible trough the passive, which is good in my book.

 

 

And while I'll admit it does trivialise the importance of some stealth frame, making them feel less unique, I feel like it's not broken.

 

I can already last an hour in T4 with my Ash solo, so why would I care that a hydroid or any other frame can do it with said passive. I say, good for them...

 

Having strong passives for each school is what's required... In essence making the player choose the school that's most suited to his particular builds/ frames, while being a huge tradeoff...

Edited January 4, 2016 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[hukurokuju5]

i think the main issue is that the rest of the skills in the trees have nothing at all comparable to the passives.  

 

you get naramon for shadowstep.  zenurik for 4 energy/sec

 

it bothers me that whoever is in charge of balance creates these super bad paths... even those status chance mods are an example of this....

[(PSN)phux0v]

ok, here are two vids of mine where im testing out naramon (not all the skills are at max) with my squishy nezha.

 

first vid here will show you that defensive skills are still helpfull even though naramon is active because of stray bullets hitting you.

it's being demonstrated here with the survival sortie melee only.

 

 

if it wasn't for warding halo i may have dropped more on my ! which tells you i didn't heavily rely on naramon to survive.

 

 

second vid are against sentients. i had more or less no problem killing lvl 30 sentients but then i went to the similcrum where you'll see lvl 50 sentients and they #rekt me so hard. i went to attack to get a high reward but despite getting the reward it didn't help me. so now i know i'll have to rely more on a higher health pool and perhaps quick thinking in order to give myself that extra chance to survive which again tells you i'm not heavily relying on naramon to survive. it helps and that's it. giving you more diversity. but it does not make you invincible.

 

i mean i had no problems surviving the sortie (for the most part) which are lvl 80+ opponents and the sentients were merely lvl 50 and i didn't stand a chance.

also in the first vid. guess who dominated the game? someone who controlled a valkyr did. so why arn't you panicking that everyone will run as a valkyr in survivals? valkyrs are considerd invincible by the community.....

 

also noticed how i used energy pads to get instant energy. why don't you ask to nerf that? it makes the game easy tooo...

see how silly your thread sounds?

one of the main points of this thread seems to be "with shadow step you can be invisible forever so it must be nerf"

however if you suggest for an instant that because loki can be invis forever loki needs a nerf, those same ppl will lynch you for insulting their precious god-tier frame. please ignore this thread as there is nothing of value to be had here

[[DE]Danielle]

After a thorough review of the thread it has been cleaned from any uncivil, unnecessary, and bitter retorts. 

 

Move along civilly, that includes you OP, or the thread will have to be locked. 

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

After a thorough review of the thread it has been cleaned from any uncivil, unnecessary, and bitter retorts. 

 

Move along civilly, that includes you OP, or the thread will have to be locked. 

Oh, snizzap! [DE] Danielle just dropped the hizzammer. Better recognize.

 

Booyakasha!

 

;D

Edited January 5, 2016 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3

[xRufus7x]

one of the main points of this thread seems to be "with shadow step you can be invisible forever so it must be nerf"

however if you suggest for an instant that because loki can be invis forever loki needs a nerf, those same ppl will lynch you for insulting their precious god-tier frame. please ignore this thread as there is nothing of value to be had here

IDK, I think there is something to be said for changing how invisibility works but that is just my opinion. An invisible loki with a silenced weapon or his augment is really only threatened by blast damage or accidentally running into the line of fire of a bad guy. Loki is definitely one of the best frames in the game if not the best when his augments are thrown in.

Edited January 5, 2016 by xRufus7x

[Haiova]

I think it's fine right now, you know, Focus is suposed to be an endgame content (i think), having such a passive makes melee much more viable, it motivates you to actually play the game instead of spamming skills, and if you don't have caution u may die even invisible. To me it's fine.

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

I can't see it being overpowered.I don't agree with you.

[TwevOWNED]

Or... or... or, something new here, we make the other focus systems better to match the power of Naramon instead of nerfing?

[Klies]

................................................... but it's a PvE game, and I would rather have something extremely fun.

Too many people forget these three things:

1. It's a PVE focused game.

2. It's a GAME, not someone invading your house to cover your computer in unicorn stickers.

3. It's supposed to be FUN.

 

Stop being so "competitive" in PVE, Tenno should be happy about anything that helps the battle against those who would oppress us. That's why we have such a huge variety of weaponry, so many warframes... and such a good community and caring developers.... yes people complain about this or that little thing, but y'know what, stop. there is neither reason, nor grounds to complain about a free game. Free... GAME....

 

Does someone else using Naramon to it's fullest potential REALLY harm your fun? Seriously!? I mean, daily Focus -can be- maxed out in 2 Ceres spy missions, in solo... so the rest of your play time gains no focus anyway, so any standing/rep, or affinity acquired IS shared, and matters not what everyone's doing as long as the mission succeeds...

 

Turn your attitude around Tenno!

Less: "That's not fair"

More: "That's cool, How can I do that too?"

[Lokime]

Nah. It's fine like it is. You know what needs a nerf? NERFS!

[(PSN)appretice]

This thread is dead, there's nothing being contributed to the thread other than more opinions. Personally I think the skill is fine. Like I said before this has in no way evolved into a meta for gameplay and for good reason, it's not viable for all endgame content except in very specific scenarios (like solo t4s). 

Edited January 5, 2016 by (PS4)appretice

[holdenagincourt]

It might be too strong, but I honestly don't care at this specific moment in time. In non-endless missions focus is superlative because of how strong we are against reasonably leveled enemies. Even subpar and middle of the road loadouts make you feel like a demigod. As for endless missions, every enemy faction has been getting steadily buffed for more than a year now, while at the same time more and more content requires grinding those endless missions. Nullifier Crewmen, Corrupted Nullifiers and Corrupted Bombards are cheap and annoying and need to have more meaningful weaknesses before I'll want an advantageous strategy to be hit with the nerf stick. Recent changes moved in the wrong direction, such as the removal of the Torid's ability to kill nullifiers without depleting their shields through skillful placement of gas grenades, so I am even more chary of removing strategies.

 

I feel similarly about Radial Disarm, Molecular Prime, Prism etc., which have always been overly strong. It feels strange for me to evince this position, because I've always been in favor of toning down things like this in order to bring more balance to the arms race between players and environment and allow for a redistribution of power to other  areas. However, I wish we (DE and the community, but mainly the former) could find a way to combat no-effort farming without causing collateral damage to unintended targets and to the holistic experience of playing Warframe.

Edited January 5, 2016 by holdenagincourt

[Tyranness]

Pfft.

 

It's not that Shadow Step is overpowered.

 

It's that everything else is weak as hell.

 

20% efficiency! . .. for 4 seconds.

 

30% damage increase in the form of IPS!. . .after spending 12 slots and waiting 10 minutes.

 

And Unairu is bad all around.

 

The two beam powers are underpowered too, Unairu needs punchthrough and madurai a way higher damage increase with level ups.

[TwevOWNED]

And Unairu is bad all around.

Eh, reducing armor on melee hits is pretty good, although it's no where near as good as instant revive, 4 energy per second, or cloak on crits.

[Arkezuli]

SHADOW STEP?!? ...OP?!?

You ever tried Hysteria? or even Exhalted Blade?
Probably not.

I mean, seriously... Focus is TERRIBLE for an endgame function that you have to kill an entire planet's population worth of XP to get anything at all in it.
Naramon's Invis is NOT overpowered, but the exact opposite. it's the only thing even slightly worth the sh*tton of kills you need to earn to get skills working. counting every single School and their skills.

Also, it's a GREAT help to make up for the garbage that endgame Melee is.

And what sorts of ultimate Ninja CANT slice sh*t in half disappearing and reappearing all over the place?!?

Last but not least:

""You can't fight what you can't see" - Bounty Hunter, DotA 2"

Enemies can still fight you Invis, based on footstep and gun sounds, and WILL kill you if you don't move after becoming invis if you do it right in front of them. so your quote is BS in this game.

Also, I'd like to remind you that Invis isn't Immortality, like certain two frames got for almost granted at the press of a button.
You can STILL get damaged all the same, or even killed by Invis, both by stray shots, derping right in front of the enemy, or simply being hit by AOEs

Edited January 5, 2016 by -.Gabriel.Ceneviva.-

[Kihana]

Also, I'd like to remind you that Invis isn't Immortality, like certain two frames got for almost granted at the press of a button.

 

Shadow Step is pure awesomeness for the simple fact that it's another tool my Valkyr can use to stay out of Hysteria for longer.