Naramon's Shadow Step Is Overpowered

[DarcnyssWolfe]

After a thorough review of the thread it has been cleaned from any uncivil, unnecessary, and bitter retorts.

Move along civilly, that includes you OP, or the thread will have to be locked.

Given the way things are going, probably would have been better to just clean it up without bumping it back up to the first page. Thing was already on its way to the graveyard.

[JoMenton]

@OP

do you think all this alone or you get any "outside" assistance  ??

 

go take a cold shower  rethink about and come again to post

[CreepyTune]

Look I know everyone has said this already but many, many people have frames they'd love to use in high level gameplay that are just too squishy and don't have abilities that can keep up with the enemy density and levels to use. This is coming from a Banshee main: This ability lets normally not viable frames finally shine. I hate being forced to play Loki or Nova or Trinity to be useful to my team, because Banshee or Nekros have equally great abilities that could really benefit the team but don't have the armor/utility to keep up. Please just let us have this one thing, this one thing that is meant for ENDGAME veteran players to help make some unappreciated frames work in high level gameplay.

 

I'd rather see the other trees changed to have skills that benefit players equally to shadow step than see a skill that makes the game fun nerfed to be useless, like so many other features in this game has.

Edited January 11, 2016 by CreepyTune

[Arkezuli]

@OP

do you think all this alone or you get any "outside" assistance  ??

 

go take a cold shower  rethink about and come again to post

"[DE]Danielle, on 05 Jan 2016 - 2:48 PM, said:

After a thorough review of the thread it has been cleaned from any uncivil, unnecessary, and bitter retorts.

Move along civilly, that includes you OP, or the thread will have to be locked."

[ShortCat]

Shadowstep need to go and will go. I maxed all Naramon passives and tested them, so i can clearly tell it is too strong.

Shadowstep allows all Frames, regardles of level, do the hardest missions without any danger. It works with 90% of meta melee weapons and cannot be countered by anything in the game, even Nullifiers.

 

The argument: "It gives melee the opportunity to be used in higher lvls" is backwards thinking at its finest. Nothing has changed with core mechanics, we just got another way to cheese the game.

[Rhaenxys]

Shadowstep need to go and will go. I maxed all Naramon passives and tested them, so i can clearly tell it is too strong.

Shadowstep allows all Frames, regardles of level, do the hardest missions without any danger. It works with 90% of meta melee weapons and cannot be countered by anything in the game, even Nullifiers.

 

The argument: "It gives melee the opportunity to be used in higher lvls" is backwards thinking at its finest. Nothing has changed with core mechanics, we just got another way to cheese the game.

It needs tweaks but saying "shadowstep need to go" is just too much, also you are wrong on some points:

 

All frames can use shadowstep but in order to take benefit from the passive you are fighting very close to the enemy, having more risk than fighting at range, squishy frames can also use this passive but to an extent, they are very susceptible to AoE damage and crossfire shots.

 

Tweaks needed in my opinion:

 

- Nullifiers can dispell the ability.

 

- Reduce the max duration to 8 seconds.

 

- Critical hits while the ability is active cant refresh the timer.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Rhaenxys

[tbeest]

You have to melee an enemy first before Shadow Step activates. Good luck getting to that lvl 100 Bombard when your invisibility is down and there are no other enemies around you. Everyone is killing everything with Soma P, Boltor P, Sancti Tigris, Synoid Simulor and Vaykor Hek and you are whining about an ability which buffs melee? Please don't..

[DSMatticus]

"We just got another way to cheese the game" is basically admitting how not a big deal shadowstep is. Being invisible 100% of the time just is not that interesting. Let's go through some common mission types and see what shadowstep does for you:

 

Exterminate: There are faster ways to do an exterminate that also won't fail, because exterminates are not difficult.

 

Capture: If you're attacking anyone other than the target, you're wasting time.

 

Spy: Nope, still useless.

 

Defense: Well, you personally are safe from enemies (barring an unlucky crossfire or some such), but you still have to protect the objective.

 

Interception: If you are playing interception to farm affinity (Draco), melee is way too slow of a way to get kills. If you are playing interception to win (sortie, void), then this keeps you alive, but doesn't necessarily do anything special to help you keep control of points.

 

Survival: Oh look, another way to solo cheese survival. Yawn.

 

Raid: If you're killing things in raid, stop and spam CC instead. You're welcome.

 

So... what did shadowstep break, exactly? Nothing that wasn't already broken? And we're getting out the nerfbat why? In the grand scheme of things, what did shadowstep actually change to make the game worse? People can easily cheese T4S in more frames now? If you didn't care before, why do you care now? If you did care before, you probably already know this game has much bigger balance fish to fry than shadowstep.

Edited January 11, 2016 by DSMatticus

[Necrius]

Not sure it's overpowered... More like it's BADASS!

[ShortCat]

It needs tweaks but saying "shadowstep need to go" is just too much, also you are wrong on some points:

 

All frames can use shadowstep but in order to take benefit from the passive you are fighting very close to the enemy, having more risk than fighting at range, squishy frames can also use this passive but to an extent, they are very susceptible to AoE damage and crossfire shots.

I need clarify myself. Shadowstep in its current state needs to go.

 

Those negatives, with close range and so on, many of you mention, are irrelivant. If you melee no enemie will shot, because they don't know where you are, they will stand there and let you beat them.

 

You have to melee an enemy first before Shadow Step activates. Good luck getting to that lvl 100 Bombard when your invisibility is down and there are no other enemies around you. Everyone is killing everything with Soma P, Boltor P, Sancti Tigris, Synoid Simulor and Vaykor Hek and you are whining about an ability which buffs melee? Please don't..

I soloed a T4S with Banshee to the point where my melee attacks didn't inflict enough damage to kill the enemies, survivability is not a problem, if you play solo at least, in groups you need to be a bit more cautious. Getting close to them is not hard. Especially on higher lvls you need more hits = more chances for Shadowstep to trigger. I had more problems staying invis when I oneshot them all the time.

 

 

Tweaks needed in my opinion:

 

- Nullifiers can dispell the ability.

 

- Reduce the max duration to 8 seconds.

 

- Critical hits while the ability is active cant refresh the timer.

Those are very good changes. Thumbs up.

[letir]

So... what did shadowstep break, exactly? Nothing that wasn't already broken? And we're getting out the nerfbat why? In the grand scheme of things, what did shadowstep actually change to make the game worse? People can easily cheese T4S in more frames now? If you didn't care before, why do you care now? If you did care before, you probably already know this game has much bigger balance fish to fry than shadowstep.

This isn't a reason to create another OP mechanic.

[Coaa]

Have people even played around with the other trees yet? You seriously think this is the most OP ability out of all the focus trees hahaha.

 

This opens up some nice combos with certain classes that'll help push them to a different level. But in order to trigger it, like others have said, you need to melee. You need to use the single most useless weapon type vs high end enemies to trigger it. Yet people want it nerfed? Mind blown personally.

 

Good luck running up to that level 100+ bomber to whack them and hope for a crit to trigger this as you eat a rocket. The only point i saw that i completely agree with though, is null bubbles disabling it. It should function like any other stealth classes abliity, no exceptions.

[DSMatticus]

This isn't a reason to create another OP mechanic.

You can't argue that things are "OP" when they are completely in line with content the game already is. There are about half a dozen frames that have the ability "be invincible, totally or practically" either directly (through incredibly high damage mitigation) or indirectly (through invisibility and the like). Shadowstep lets you turn any frame into one of those frames, but also requires that you mostly switch to a (relatively) low DPS method of killing enemies (unless you're Excalibur).

 

Has valkyr broken the game? No, not really - valkyr's abysmal CC and short range means she's generally very bad at playing the objective, and is really most useful as an emergency medic and for carrying pubs through certain grineer/infested sortie mission types (where valkyr might make the mission take much longer, but even the dumbest teammate won't be able to ruin the mission). Valkyr has a niche and is good enough at that niche to justify her existence without being nearly as sought after as, say, Trinity.

 

At the end of the day shadowstep did not change anything. This is something we could already do, and it wasn't actually an automatic I-Win button except in the game's easiest mission types (who cares).

[Nagisawa]

All right.  Let's break it down.

 

Shadowstep only works with melee KILLS.  So as long as you have the right close combat weapons that do enough damage to kill targets reasonably quickly, you'll stay invisible.

 

Loki, somewhat fragile suit, but as long as you have energy, you can keep Invisibility up for an entire run, and it doesn't matter if you kill or not.  It's all dependent on energy inflow.

 

So what people are effectively saying that Loki's invisibility is over powered?  I can agree with that.

[Issxi]

Another joke thread I see.

 

Focus is end-game. You know what that means right? It means it is for end-game. Veteran players finally have something to keep going for. Stop trying to ruin it.

[enJohneering]

I'm just saying that the duration of Shadow Step is way too long that you can cheese it. You see, if you can sustain your invisibility for even just a decently long amount of time that the gap of visibility is too small to react on, a level 100 bombard won't shoot you even if you are straight in his face.

The fact that you just have to cast it once and have that much duration is already overpowered.

Heavies react extremely quickly to melee attacks with their ground slam which is enough to stun-lock you straight to the revive/abort window. I certainly understand the lack of caution due to boredom that got you killed (I play Loki and Trin fairly often) but there's another point. You tested SOLO SURVIVAL, which is not the grand benchmark endgame that most of us use it as. I enjoy playing with teams, usually PUGS. If you play with a competent team and they manage to clear the room, those precious extra seconds are all you have to find and pick up new targets before you lose stealth. Also this ability really makes gun-play impossible because you need to constantly be hitting something with melee to ensure stealth. Right now, I used it as a get-out-of-jail free card for when I run out of energy on various frames as a method to wait out the onslaught until I can get back in control and rejoin the fight.

 

It may turn out that as more people attain this skill, teams will use it to run 4-man invis excal teams but honestly there are plenty of ways to cheese content to that level with some planning anyway. Compared to Valkyr's invincibility this isn't that over-powered and it takes a long time to grind the focus for it. I'm only to 6 seconds atm because I have been maxing the crit chance talent first so that I'm not locked  into a a couple of weapons to make the tree work. Even at this point though, I can use this skill to stay alive when the rest of my team takes a dive in a sortee or T4 long enough to clear the field and perform some revives.

 

So yes, this is another method that can be used to get past some manner of the infinite scaling that we love to find ways to beat, but it is not more egregious that any of the others and offers a somewhat unique method of play that encourages/allows more variety in load-outs without sacrificing survivability. I say leave it as is for now, at least until we've fixed the rest of the trees to make them relevant and seen how they are used.

[alergiclaprosti]

Naramon shouldn't be nerfed ...... It's the other ones that need to be made usefull and ALL of them need to be STRONGER.

 

I changed to Zenurik, after I've kinda finished my Unairu, ray of death, build.  All the schools are nice ... but they need to be made usefull.

 

Unairu works with armor enhancement and armor reduction. Either pump the numbers up so it's usefull or stop manipulating armor, becasue, I've said it and I'll say it again, armor is useless.

 

As for Zenurik: Why increase energy efficiency!? when  a normal build will still come around 4 min cooldown for the main skill.

 

Why do I need some seconds of energy efficiency that is still capped at 75% once every ~4 min!?

 

So I have to decrease energy efficiency just for the promise of a time period after I use my main skill?

 

That skill is the unlocking of a power that scared The Orokin and even the Sentients. It doesn't feel like it.

Edited January 12, 2016 by alergiclaprosti

[ShortCat]

Another joke thread I see.

 

Focus is end-game. You know what that means right? It means it is for end-game. Veteran players finally have something to keep going for. Stop trying to ruin it.

Veteran player here.

 

I could do long solo runs in endless missions before, now I can do as long solo runs with every frame and blank loadout thanks to Shadowstep. I don't need more cheese. Nothing endgame usefull here.

[KuroNekoXlll]

Have you guys run out of things to said yet? Like a statement with a unique meaning not already seen in the last 19 pages?

[letir]

You can't argue that things are "OP" when they are completely in line with content the game already is.

I can.

 

Shadow Step can completly trivialize game content for most frames and become tool of destruction for Excalibur, so it's useful. Enemies dosen't have any method to attack invizible threats, so it's OP.

 

OP things are still Over Powered. It dosen't matter, how much tools can break game balance alredy. If you want to bring this kind of exucse, we can as well bring optional "Godlike Mode" in Warframe, when enemies cannot do a S#&$ and justify it by "let's everyone have a fun in PVE game", "if you don't like it - don't use it" and "it's not like it can change anything, game balance is dead alredy".

[DarcnyssWolfe]

I'm only to 6 seconds atm because I have been maxing the crit chance talent first so that I'm not locked into a a couple of weapons to make the tree work.

Hate to be a barer of bad news, but the crit is essentially half a True Steel, rather than a melee only Arcane Avenger aka Its multiplicative not additive.

[VentiGlondi]

People complain that melee is not good enough, and when they get a viable melee gimmick that isn't just more damage, they complain that it's overpowered.

 

I don't understand.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Shadow Step is the latest manifestation of Tenno OPness ruining the game. It's not the problem, it's a sock puppet on the end of a deformed tendril being held out in front of us by the problem.

 

The problem is that we're too powerful for our own good, and it's killing the game. The game is balanced around level 30, but it's only really challenging at levels >100. If you want balance, the game is easy to a near unplayable level. If you want challenge, the game is unbalanced to a near unplayable level. This also creates further issues as new stuff comes out that's balanced for levels >100, like permanent god mode Valkyr making it literally impossible to fail most missions, the Vaykor Hek having over 2-3x the DPS of literally every single rifle in the game, and of course, permanent invisibility with Shadow Step.

 

In a perfect universe, level 30-40 would be our challenging, balanced endgame.

[Kevo149]

1 hour 50 mins with Wukong. Anytime something procs defy i just spam melee till crt then while invisi recast defy and just kill everything. 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

Except yes it is overpowered because NO ONE CAN SEE YOU WHEN ITS PROC'D. AND YOU CAN DO IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN!

 

You do realize that as a loki with zenurik, You will gain energy faster then you can spam it. My loki can go invisible for around 30 seconds. No rng crit chance necessary, I just use the ability and within 3 seconds, i will have gained enough energy to use it again. Oh are there a lot of mobs around? Ill use irradiaiting disarm a few hundred times.

 

Or maybe i wanna switch it up a bit. Imma change frames to my chroma with 1000% armor boost and 6x damage multiplier. Within 20 seconds of using two abilities I not only am basically immortal with my 700 armor becoming ungodly, But I'm mowing down enemies with a 600% damage boost and I don't have to worry about running out of energy... EVER. Lets say something managed to hurt me, I turn to them, with my sancti tigris, that does right around 46,000 damage a shot, (2 shots per clip) and fire at them. Oh and I'm doing 2 shots of 46,000 damage with 2.1 meter punch through with a 6x damage multiplier. (so lets say every pellet hits its mark, that is right around half a million damage to any enemy in front of me. Then my syndicate explosion goes off and I'm fully healed. Or i could switch to marelok and do the same thing and get even MOAR ARMOR. MOAR MOAR ARMOR. 

 

So you were hydroid and you were using a melee weapon and getting 4x damage, Good for you. But no melee weapon in the game can match the damage of primary weapons. My Chroma + sancti tigris will outlive and and outdamage you as melee weapons don't hit very hard unless they buffed by finisher damage, exalted blade or hysteria. And melee weapons become less effective much faster then anything else in the game and any heavy unit will try to ground slam you and you can just be blasted to death by a bombard while you try to melee a heavy gunner to death. The whole point of the focus perk is to make you safer if you melee (like a ninja... who is in space!) and its all based on the random crit chance. The only way it would be overpowered is if it gave invisibility every time you pulled off a combo. Right now its based of crit so there are only so many weapons you can use with it it get your invisibility. I can run t4 for an hour just running and gunning with any frame and any gun i choose. But if you try the same thing but with a melee weapon alone, you're gonna get destroyed around the 30 min mark unless you playing as a valkyr. So yes, its powerful, but its not overpowered as its keeping melee weapons on the same playing field as guns.

 

Ive run t4s with specialized frames and weapons and I've seen some insane damage numbers, (highest in t4 that I've seen was like 116 million)

If your hydroid could one shot level 130s while never using energy and always being invisible then id agree its overpowered. But its just a small gift to anyone who likes using melee weapons without worrying about dying just cause their melee weapon didn't kill a high level enemy fast enough