Adopt-A-Newb Program - Suppressed. Episode 2.

[Meneliki]

Hi everyone.

 

Just a bit of an update.

 

For **************OVER A YEAR NOW****************** Adopt-A-Newb has been helping new players in the relays, answering questions, giving advice, assisting with missions. We've run into problems before, with certain individuals who apparently don't like what we're doing. They went away for a while. Now they're back.

 

At first, for quite a while, actually... we had no issues. There was a very warm reception to what we were doing. One day, offering help to new players more often than once every 5-6 minutes was considered 'spamming', according to he local "Guide of the Lotus" and was inappropriate behaviour on the relays. I'll be completely honest - I flatly ignored this warning as I felt it was completely B.S. There is nothing 'spammy' about advertising every few minutes that a once-every-2-week event is going on in the interests of helping new players. The problem went away on it's own after a week.

 

Fast forward a few months. Sadly, offering to help new players help with their missions in the relays is apparently no longer acceptable behaviour. Such things are to be kept to 'recruiting' chat, according to our local "Guide of the Lotus". I feel that it's important to point out that Adopt-A-Newb PRE-DATES the "Guides of the Lotus" program and I feel no obligation to bend to their will. (*Disclaimer - I also have no desire to break the rules, I'll follow them to the best of my ability - but certain things just dont seem right and I will fight them to the bitter end)

 

It's equally important to note that Adopt-A-Newb is in no way affiliated with the Guides of the Lotus program. We are a completely separate entity with the sole desire of making the game more newb-friendly. The Guides of the Lotus program appears to have the same goal, which I applaud, but for some strange reason we seem to get nothing but animosity from them.

 

I want everyone to understand that it has never been Adopt-A-Newb's goal to undermine or usurp the function of "Guides of the Lotus" (again, A-A-N pre-dates GotL). Instead, we're just another group who wants to make Warframe better by welcoming it's new players.

 

Several months ago, something similar happened. It was reported to forum moderators, and nothing really came of it. Here we are, months later, back at square one. We're trying to help, certainly not hurt, and I'd argue strongly that what we're doing is in no way disrupting or inflammatory/spammy on the relays (Common sense, guys. we're trying to help rookies). But certain people feel otherwise.

 

I'm curious what eveyrone else's feelings are on this matter. I wouldn't mind if an official DE rep (or forum moderator, or whatever) stepped in, once and for all, and set this straight. Is what we're doing wrong? Give the word, and Adopt-A-Newb will be disbanded immediately - forever. But give that word INFRONT OF THESE FORUMS, FOR ALL TO SEE. 

 

If it's not wrong, please help me understand why we have certain representatives, (i.e. "Guides of the Lotus") whom, again, i WILL NOT NAME, opposing it.

 

Thank you.

 

-Meneliki

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2016 by Meneliki

[Cazzzz]

I recall hearing about this program a while back. It's involvement with the community is something that shouldn't be taken for granted. A GotL that denies this program certainly isn't doing a great job helping develop our community. Glad to see this revolving back around.

 

Good luck to you and the program~!

[MagPrime]

I think what you guys are doing is a valuable community function, that shows how positive our community is.

 

Honestly a little surprised that you're getting so much grief over this. 

[Syln]

You should take some screenshot to give a context if this issue derail, better safe than sorry ^

And don't forget that guide of the lotus are here to help, they have no power whatsoever (and after reading you i kind of feel like it's better this way, no offense to them)

[Meneliki]

You should take some screenshot to give a context if this issue derail, better safe than sorry ^

 

Well, I really don't want this to become an attack on a specific person. It's simpler if the individual in question remains anonymous. I consider the individual's words/actions to speak for the Guides of the Lotus program as a whole (as they should), and therefore the Guides of the Lotus Program itself needs to answer for it.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Meneliki

[BabyBomi]

I think you should stick to the chat, because not many new players hang out at the relays. I was new a month ago, MR12 now, I only started going there because of baro, and I only found out about him at like MR6

[Lord-Taco-the-Great]

I love what you're doing, you shouldn't be stopped for it.

[LordBeeBrain]

What you are doing is what I wish the rest of the community had patience to do. People like you are what keep new players coming back to this game, and you should not be stopped for it.

 

I wish you luck!

Edited January 16, 2016 by xZetsumeix

[(PSN)Cwellann]

I think you should stick to the chat, because not many new players hang out at the relays. I was new a month ago, MR12 now, I only started going there because of baro, and I only found out about him at like MR6

Or split the difference, sit in the relay, watching for people asking for help, and volunteering aid in the recruiting channel.  The "just found out about relays" is a whole different can of worms that really needs to be addressed (the first thing your Liset should do is force you into a relay visit in my opinion), but that's another discussion.

 

The program itself, of course,  cannot answer for the actions of an individual, it always comes down to one person, which, as you say in your OP, would be a DE employee.  Good on you for not naming; naming, again, as you say, just makes a big ol' toxic mess.  I do need to ask you for some clarification though - you say this has been a long term recurring issue; is it the same guide each time the issue flares up, or is it a different person each time?

 

I'm assuming PC has the same 2 minute slow mode in chat that we have on console - and while, personally, for example, I find people recruiting for clans exactly every 120 seconds with the exact same announcement for half an hour rather odious, rules are rules, and if you're within their lines, I'm having trouble seeing how you could be called to task for violation, when there's an automated function that physically prevents you from violating them.

 

Personally, I'd love to see the relays more active, so I think what you're doing, trying to nurture a culture in the relays, is great, from the point of view of a PSN player who can't actually log in and get an on the ground view.

 

Honestly, I think you should contact senior guides and try to get an answer, and of course that private conversation should absolutely include screen shots.  It sounds like you've tried this once.  If nothing came of it, it's quite likely that, well, they're busy, and if you've brought an issue up and it hasn't gotten any traction, it's quite possible that it's simply viewed as a non issue.  I don't mean this to say your being given grief by a GotL is a non issue, but rather that there's nothing wrong with what you're doing, and a response of "well, he can be kinda an *** sometimes, just ignore him" isn't really an ok thing to say either because it would undercut that person, so silence may have been chosen as the least worst response with the hope that it would just sort of work itself out.  Not saying this is ok, but hey, we're all human

 

If it's really a huge issue (spam from the Guide, personal attacks, clear and obvious attempted abuse of power) I would suggest you submit a support ticket for griefing or harassment.  If nothing else, this creates an official record, which can be extremely valuable.  An issue brought to a supervisor with "Several times in the past 6 months this guy's been a problem" is a far weaker case than "Please review these 15 reports of violation of rules showing a clear trend of attempted abuse of power by this guy".

 

PS  Sorry to stick my console nose in a PC discussion, but it sounded interesting, and I think the underlying issues are applicable everywhere.

PPS  Also sorry for my verbosity.  My doctor gave me a cream for it, and it just isn't working.  Must need the dose bumped.

[Meneliki]

PS  Sorry to stick my console nose in a PC discussion, but it sounded interesting, and I think the underlying issues are applicable everywhere.

 

It's fine, this issue isn't platform specific. It's an idealogical issue.

 

For the sake of discussion,  yes it is infact the same Guide in question for both incidents, though I don't consider this relevant. In my humble opinion, a Guide represents the Program. Therefore, we've run into issues twice now with "The Program", not a specific person. You cannot have representatives that are rogue or whom do not reflect the ideals/values of the collective body.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Meneliki

[(PSN)Cwellann]

It's fine, this issue isn't platform specific. It's an idealogical issue.

 

For the sake of discussion,  yes it is infact the same Guide in question for both incidents, though I don't consider this relevant. In my humble opinion, a Guide represents the Program. Therefore, we've run into issues twice now with "The Program", not a specific person. You cannot should not have representatives that are rogue or whom do not reflect the ideals/values of the collective body.

Changed to reflect my (rather strongly held) opinion.  I'd like to agree with you, however, this is simply not the world we live in.  The Guide certainly does represent the program, but it is composed of people "Human experience shows that people, not organizations or management systems, get things done", some of whom may be corrupt.  This is pretty much the same as saying because one dirty cop exists, the law is not valid.  There's a better way to phrase that, but I just can't put my finger on it right now.  I can only agree with your conclusion if you have addressed this with program supervision to the maximum extent possible, as they are the ultimate authority in this case. 

 

In light of this, allow me to reiterate my recommendation you submit a support ticket, or discuss this with a Senior Guide - preferably both (it's like bringing up illegality within your place of employment to your boss, and phoning your congressman at the same time).  If that's not productive, as it's the same person, and a recurring issue, I'd recommend taking it up the chain, and contacting Danielle or Rebecca.  Obviously, tangible proof should be in hand if you're walking it up this far.

 

I'd also like to bring a second possibility to your mind - the Guide may simply be undertrained and overzealous, and your aggressive pursuit of your issue may help him to become better at what he's honestly trying to do already.

 

"It is human inclination to hope things will work out, despite evidence or doubt to the contrary."  As this has been an issue twice, you either need to decide it is unimportant to you, or aggressively pursue it.  It is highly likely it will simply go away for good.

 

Edit:  I felt the need to add Rickover quotes.

Edited January 16, 2016 by (PS4)Cwellann

[Meneliki]

 As this has been an issue twice, you either need to decide it is unimportant to you, or aggressively pursue it.

 

I'd love to simply ignore it, but sadly in this case, the person in question supposedly has the power to perma-ban people from the relays. Obviously, I don't need that.

[BabyBomi]

I personally think DE should make the relays more important to make more people go there, because for me my liset is a bit small and squishy, I would love to permanently stay at the big &#! relay.

[CKNPOTPIE]

I personally think DE should make the relays more important to make more people go there, because for me my liset is a bit small and squishy, I would love to permanently stay at the big ! relay.

They said in the latest DevStream they are going to be doing a lot of work on Relays this year.

[Sloan441]

Considering the amount of mindless blather that typically goes on in relays, I certainly don't see an issue with the AAN group at all.

 

I don't spend much time in the relays, but I've never seen guides do much at all. If it's in /tells, then that would explain it, but if most activity is there, again, I don't see any issue with helping out the new folks regardless of the source of such help.

[SquireAngel]

I feel like AAN sounds rather like something that would reduce spam. Rather than having a bunch of players spamming the EXACT same questions in region chat over and over and over again with the span of only a minute or so, having a community driven event to help inform the new, ignorant masses would reduce the number of times we would have such redundant and eventually irritating questions. I think that the GotL in question might not actually speak for the program. Any time the WF community comes into question in devstreams and prime times, Rebecca and Megan are hugely enthusiastic when they see the community helping to improve the game. There is only so many individuals in the GotL program, and they obviously can only be so many places at once, when they're on. I would think that anything that helps the community to a moderate degree should and has been well received by the community leaders. I think that if enough people reply to this thread and it becomes a hot topic, it might attract the attention of a moderator, and they could give a more definitive answer. I think, until such a time as someone with 'real' authority says otherwise, continue doing your events. Having a healthy, helpful community is a large driving force for said community to welcome new players into the fold and to actually get them to say. I can say from large amounts of experience, the face of the gaming community is more important than the face of the gaming company itself, as players will be playing with each other, not with the company itself. 

[(XBOX)RVN World News]

Putting my tow cents and will say any group trying to help out anyone shouldn't receive any animosity at all. You sure it was a guide of the lotus, don't sound like it to me to be honest... also, tbh I'll agree with what someone said earlier, I've never actually seen a guide help with anything, I do see one on occasion in the trading tab but I mean.....

[(PSN)Cwellann]

I'd love to simply ignore it, but sadly in this case, the person in question supposedly has the power to perma-ban people from the relays. Obviously, I don't need that.

There was an or statement in there.  Text is kind of hard to put an inflection on, but I was certainly trying to lean hard on the second part of that statement :)

[Vargras]

Having heard of the situation, you'd do well to not omit details when they show you in the wrong. I mean, you're trying to paint yourself in the best light, but it's making it look awfully one-sided.

 

You were attempting to recruit for a raid, in order to walk newer players through it. You were doing so in a non-recruiting channel -- that is to say, you were in the wrong channel. The Guide acted accordingly. If you're going to recruit for a raid, even if you're doing so just to walk new folks through it so they understand it, you must use the Recruiting channel and no other channels. Failure to do so is completely on you.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

The Relays are meant to be a recruiting platform, as well as a chatting platform. That had been the original intention of the Relays when they were introduced, and that is how I had been treating them ever since. 

 

If there had been 'spam', or the message you had been posting was far too frequent, that may have been the reasoning behind the kick, though, if they had kicked you solely for Recruiting, either I, myself, am in the wrong, or there is a misunderstanding of what the Relays are meant to accomplish.

If you hadn't already, feel free to ask the Guide the reason they had kicked you from the chat. That's what we are here for.

 

Best thing to do in this situation, where you feel unfairly moderated by a Guide, is to contact Warframe Support by submitting a request under the "Guides of the Lotus" category. They should be able to clear up any issues on the subject for you, and I'll also hold a discussion on the situation, on my end, so that we can all be on the same page with how we handle the Relays.