Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[cx-dave]

46 minutes ago, traybong111 said:

I really hope you're being sarcastic because the very fact that you took Tonkor over any other weapon to the endless Rathuum just proved OP's point. 

I mean, you do possess that sort of basic self-awareness that most humans develop by the age of 12, right? Right???

I brought it with me so you could write how you really feel about others on this forum...cause I killed so much with it. Right?

Using the Tonkor is a waste of time in this event. The movement patterns of the enemies aren't suited for that kind of weapon. You can kill far more effectively with the Vaykor Hek or Dex Sybaris for instance. 

47 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

yeah well, completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, still thanks for bringing other broken aspects of the game to the devs attention

I'm sure they'll be grateful. It's not as if they aren't aware of the leader boards or data mind their customers. They must also be totally unaware of Finisher Damage and related mod they introduced into the game. 

Could it be that the concept of OP and balance from the anti-Tonkorists doesn't align with how the game is actually played?

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

26 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

I'm sure they'll be grateful. It's not as if they aren't aware of the leader boards or data mind their customers. They must also be totally unaware of Finisher Damage and related mod they introduced into the game.

you do have a point: despite that "bourbon list" PVE balance is obviously no priority to the devs at all these days. only skills allowing afk-ing are fixed immediately to force players into sitting through hours of boring content to feel urged to skip it by purchasing stuff with plat.*

sad.

26 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Could it be that the concept of OP and balance from the anti-Tonkorists doesn't align with how the game is actually played?

"played"... as if there was much of a "game" left at this point. grats tho for the stamina to sit through the hours of doing the same dull thing over and over it must have taken you to get all those executioner kills.

 

*edit: just for clarification: of course i agree g-mag, mesa etc. had to be nerfed. i just think that's the reason for discrepancies in how fast (if ever) things get fixed. my point is the "meta" or whatever you wanna call it wouldn't have to feel so tedious in the first place if it wasn't so braindead.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[traybong111]

55 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

I brought it with me so you could write how you really feel about others on this forum...cause I killed so much with it. Right?

Using the Tonkor is a waste of time in this event. The movement patterns of the enemies aren't suited for that kind of weapon. You can kill far more effectively with the Vaykor Hek or Dex Sybaris for instance. 

I'm sure they'll be grateful. It's not as if they aren't aware of the leader boards or data mind their customers. They must also be totally unaware of Finisher Damage and related mod they introduced into the game. 

Could it be that the concept of OP and balance from the anti-Tonkorists doesn't align with how the game is actually played?

 

And yet it was your weapon of choice to the event that you knew had wacky enemy scaling. Are you really not aware of what drove you to make that choice, why Tonkor was you and many other players' first choice over many other weapons for taking on Executioners i.e. souped up Grineer?

I can't believe I have to spell this out. 

 

EDIT: But seriously, kudos on 2500+ score. I just got enough for a trophy and noped out hard. 

Edited May 1, 2016 by traybong111

[TheLexiConArtist]

As plainly irrelevant as the 'example' was, devolving into image macros in response is no way to keep the thread alive (and the rest of the debate thus far valid).

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

As plainly irrelevant as the 'example' was, devolving into image macros in response is no way to keep the thread alive (and the rest of the debate thus far valid).

To be fair, the thread has pretty much run its course, and meme pictures are about as good as walls of text when it comes to the reader's attention.  

[Magneu]

5 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

To be fair, the thread has pretty much run its course, and meme pictures are about as good as walls of text when it comes to the reader's attention.  

As EDYinnit and I know, this statement is very true. There's no further point continuing, as everything is out of our control or influence now.

I'm betting U19 will bring some explosive changes.

[IceColdHawk]

4 hours ago, Magneu said:

I'm betting U19 will bring some explosive changes.

Inb4 new datamined tonkor mod comes out for +dmg and radius.

Yep, then this thread will explode.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

15 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

As plainly irrelevant as the 'example' was, devolving into image macros in response is no way to keep the thread alive (and the rest of the debate thus far valid).

Wheres that tonkor  ohk?-   circular arguments chases itself around and around going nowhere popcorn.Gif

[Magneu]

18 hours ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

Wheres that tonkor  ohk?-   circular arguments chases itself around and around going nowhere popcorn.Gif

@cx-dave

Fighting level 5000 enemies and saying a weapon is bad because it can't kill them is like getting mad your Bugatti Chiron won't do Mach 5. It's still the highest performing piece of equipment by a large margin, but it's obviously not going to overcome obscene challenges to hit the goal of OHK a level 5000/hit Mach 5.

It's not "Tonkor will OHK always", it's "Tonkor will OHK further than any other weapon, and even past the level of OHK, keeps the highest sustained/burst DPS with no self-risk, in an AOE". False dilemma much?

I could argue "every frame is squishy and useless, and every enemy does way too much damage" because everyone short of Wukong, Valkyr, and maybe Trinity would be one-shot at that level.

As people above me said, gr8 b8 m8, 8/8. Thank you for contributing nothing to the discussion, and wasting the time/screen space of everyone who is on this page.

 

[cx-dave]

1 hour ago, Magneu said:

Fighting level 5000 enemies and saying a weapon is bad because it can't kill them is like getting mad your Bugatti Chiron won't do Mach 5. It's still the highest performing piece of equipment by a large margin, but it's obviously not going to overcome obscene challenges to hit the goal of OHK a level 5000/hit Mach 5.

That's why you don't bring a car to a knife fight.

1 hour ago, Magneu said:

It's not "Tonkor will OHK always", it's "Tonkor will OHK further than any other weapon, and even past the level of OHK, keeps the highest sustained/burst DPS with no self-risk, in an AOE". False dilemma much?

Actually, I've proven it doesn't. First, with  Saryn with Hikou at lower levels. Then, I did it with a dagger at higher levels. The way I see it the Tonkor has a sweet spot just like so many other weapons. It's no exception.

Try going to level 5,000 with a Tonkor. Shouldn't be hard without self-risk. Should have thought of that myself. I could have gone to level 10,000 with a Tonkor!!!

1 hour ago, Magneu said:

I could argue "every frame is squishy and useless, and every enemy does way too much damage" because everyone short of Wukong, Valkyr, and maybe Trinity would be one-shot at that level.

They won't kill anything at that level without additional damage modifiers from other players (unless you know how to get over 190 million damage playing solo?). Even then, they're not a good choice for the job...brute force rarely is for higher levels.

(Edit: Just in case you come up with something to nitpick again. I guess Trin can kill them on her own, but it's not as if all the enemies just stand by and watch while you EV them to death. You also have to reach that level through combat.)

Edited May 5, 2016 by cx-dave

[TheLexiConArtist]

18 hours ago, cx-dave said:

That's why you don't bring a car to a knife fight.

Actually, I've proven it doesn't. First, with  Saryn with Hikou at lower levels. Then, I did it with a dagger at higher levels. The way I see it the Tonkor has a sweet spot just like so many other weapons. It's no exception.

Saryn isn't a weapon, therefore invalid.

Scaled beyond a level of balance, percentages will obviously eventually outdamage flat sources, no matter how many modifiers you apply to that flat.

 

These are red herrings. Being top-tier in 100% of the game that is subjected to actual reasonable balance is not a 'sweet spot'.

[RealPandemonium]

4 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Saryn isn't a weapon, therefore invalid.

Scaled beyond a level of balance, percentages will obviously eventually outdamage flat sources, no matter how many modifiers you apply to that flat.

 

These are red herrings. Being top-tier in 100% of the game that is subjected to actual reasonable balance is not a 'sweet spot'.

He's overtly baiting you at this point.  Just go back to forgetting that this thread existed.  Worked for me.

[cx-dave]

8 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Saryn isn't a weapon, therefore invalid.

Scaled beyond a level of balance, percentages will obviously eventually outdamage flat sources, no matter how many modifiers you apply to that flat.

 

These are red herrings. Being top-tier in 100% of the game that is subjected to actual reasonable balance is not a 'sweet spot'.

Tonkor can't be equipped without a frame, therefore invalid.

Not even close to being top tier in 100% of the game. Your second paragraph already contradicts that.

Your only argument is raw DPS calculation. You don't take actual game play into consideration. 

 

...then we have the issue of over simplified car analogies. Just as misleading as the examples used to claim Tonkor superiority. Bugatti is the "fastest". Fastest at exactly what? Not fastest on a mud road, not fastest on a tight and bendy race track, not fastest if I have to transport 50 people from A to B, not fastest if you have to move 5 tons of sand, etc., etc., etc.

When you actually have to use a tool to do something, it becomes a bit more nuanced, than just some big number on paper.

[TheBrsrkr]

2 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Tonkor can't be equipped without a frame, therefore invalid.

The ability and the frame are two separate entities that only interact significantly when powers are used. Hikou can only outdo the Tonkor when Spores are used, and that's because everything else dies too quickly and can't spread the Spores. Even then, the damage falls off much earlier than the Tonkor because there's just so much damage on the Tonkor. 

 

2 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Not even close to being top tier in 100% of the game. Your second paragraph already contradicts that.

100% of the game that makes sense! What are you doing at level 5000? Why are you playing the same mission for 2 hours? Damage itself becomes irrelevant at those levels, which just makes this a horrible argument. The weapon that does the most massive amounts of damage in the largest radius doesn't work well against enemies that are basically immune to direct damage? Stop the presses! 

 

2 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Your only argument is raw DPS calculation. You don't take actual game play into consideration. 

Because they're component players, and competent players know how to use their weapons, and that games are balanced around the top. Your """actual game play"""seems to be using powers and percentages to get around the need for direct damage, which really is irrelevant to the conversation. 

2 hours ago, cx-dave said:

then we have the issue of over simplified car analogies. Just as misleading as the examples used to claim Tonkor superiority. Bugatti is the "fastest". Fastest at exactly what? Not fastest on a mud road, not fastest on a tight and bendy race track, not fastest if I have to transport 50 people from A to B, not fastest if you have to move 5 tons of sand, etc., etc., etc.

How often to people who buy a Bugatti drive on dirt roads, bendy race tracks, need to carry 50 people  or have to carry 5 tons of sand? These are all very niche situations that have vehicles built to fit that niche. Does that make the Bugatti any less the best car, for where cars excel, and where cars are mostly used throughout the entire planet?  Just because you don't understand the analogy doesn't mean it's oversimplified. 

[MKDLMR]

Leave it alone. 

I farmed the resources and took the time to forma it four to five times [can't remember]. That's a lot of my time that will go to waste if it is nerfed, and, if it is nerfed, I strongly feel that everyone who used forma on it [or any weapon for that matter] should be provided the option to have their forma refunded. Include that potato while you're at it too. 

Anyway, hasn't it already been nerfed once? I don't understand why there's even a complaint? That's like someone working hard in the gym complaining that they can bench press more than they expected they would otherwise be able to.... 

[cx-dave]

3 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

How often to people who buy a Bugatti drive on dirt roads, bendy race tracks, need to carry 50 people  or have to carry 5 tons of sand? These are all very niche situations that have vehicles built to fit that niche. Does that make the Bugatti any less the best car, for where cars excel, and where cars are mostly used throughout the entire planet?  Just because you don't understand the analogy doesn't mean it's oversimplified. 

The reference is to you guys claiming the Tonkor is best for everything. Get it???

Okay Mr TheBrsrkr, do the below with a Tonkor. Then, come back here and claim it was the best weapon for the job...and don't reply with the excuse that the example is a rare exception. I brought up too many so called "rare" exceptions here for them to be rare for any longer. It's so easy to be an armchair referee isn't it.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

14 hours ago, cx-dave said:

The reference is to you guys claiming the Tonkor is best for everything.

There is no such claim nor is it the point of this thread. Now give it a rest with the pseudo-arguing please, it's not progressing the discussion at. all.

16 hours ago, MKDLMR said:

I farmed the resources and took the time to forma it four to five times [can't remember]. That's a lot of my time that will go to waste if it is nerfed, and, if it is nerfed, I strongly feel that everyone who used forma on it [or any weapon for that matter] should be provided the option to have their forma refunded. Include that potato while you're at it too.

I got 6 Formas in it, who cares. One evening in Draco is not a big feat. And even if it was: Read EULA. Besides who says it would be unusable in a more balanced state?

Edited May 7, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[TheBrsrkr]

6 hours ago, cx-dave said:

The reference is to you guys claiming the Tonkor is best for everything. Get it??

Static or and Sonicor are better at CC. Braton Prime is better at dealing status. Melee weapons are better at single target killing. It isn't the best at absolutely everything in the game ever. But get this: it doesn't need to be. You're not even trying to understand the analogy. 

 

6 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Okay Mr TheBrsrkr, do the below with a Tonkor. 

What happened to don't like it don't use it? 

 

6 hours ago, cx-dave said:

. Then, come back here and claim it was the best weapon for the job...and don't reply with the excuse that the example is a rare exception.

It isn't an excuse because it's true! 15 game modes -  read what I'm saying here, game modes - can be absolutely dominated by the Tonkor for the best part of an hour and a half,and that's only because of endless missions, no finite mission is going to survive a sneeze from the Tonkor. All of your examples either include using abilities to augment weapons, which has more to do with the ability than the weapon, single target or very spread out targets, which 90% of Warframe doesn't even have, or things that avoid doing direct damage entirely in favor of percentages, which no weapon can compete with since weapons do direct damage. If you show me 200 different matches of the same thing it won't change squat. 

 

6 hours ago, cx-dave said:

. I brought up too many so called "rare" exceptions here for them to be rare for any longer. It's so easy to be an armchair referee isn't it.

You've done nothing but waste everyone's time. Again. 

Edited May 6, 2016 by TheBrsrkr

[DeadlyPeanutt]

6 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

You've done nothing but waste everyone's time. Again. 

lol, the pot shouldn't call the kettle black

[Hayabusa97]

Jesus, this thread is still up? With how long it's been here, I'm amazed DE hasn't taken a look at it unless it will be a topic for the Devstream.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

2 hours ago, Hayabusa97 said:

Jesus, this thread is still up? With how long it's been here, I'm amazed DE hasn't taken a look at it unless it will be a topic for the Devstream.

Indeed... especially considering there was a response from [DE]Glen on the very first page already (in which even he expressed his amazement at a head critting AOE weapon and the lack of self-damage...).

People provided numerous facts, field reports, math and videos proving it's brokeness AND suggestions for balancing, while the best the yay-sayers came up with is "it's fun" and "play solo"...

 

Time to get to work.

[fatpig84]

Herp derp at the rage.
Tonkor only needs one thing, more fixing on the AOE headshots.

That's all.

Edited May 7, 2016 by fatpig84

[cx-dave]

1 hour ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

ndeed... especially considering there was a response from [DE]Glen on the very first page already (in which even he expressed his amazement at a head critting AOE weapon and the lack of self-damage...).

People provided numerous facts, field reports, math and videos proving it's brokeness AND suggestions for balancing, while the best the yay-sayers came up with is "it's fun" and "play solo"...

 

Time to get to work.

You'll probably get your nerf eventually. In the meantime put some thought into why it is taking this long, instead of going out of your way in your attempts to debase and misrepresent people of differing opinions.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

10 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

You'll probably get your nerf eventually. In the meantime put some thought into why it is taking this long, instead of going out of your way in your attempts to debase and misrepresent people of differing opinions.

i apologize for the polemic diction, i know i presented the pro-faction arguments in a reductionist light, it was just to kinda humorously illustrate my point to which i stand: the "substantiated-ness" of the critics arguments is vastly superior.

i wonder why you would be so pessimistic (from your perspective) about a tonkor nerf incoming if you weren't somewhat agreeing. the reasons it takes them so long to take action (at least in form of an official commentary) are probably many... maybe weapon balance is not so much a priority right now because of damage 3.0 being about to change things anyway... then there's events to be taken care of atm, frame-reworks inbound. i don't know.

[TheBrsrkr]

9 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

lol, I have no answer to any of the criticism I just received so I'm just going to point at the thing you said that I didn't like, 

What exactly did you hope to achieve by making this post?