Independent Warframes?

[Yrveth]

Just now, PUR3K1LL3R said:

"The Shadow is pure, undreaming, untainted" 

Assuming that the Tenno have to be in the dream like state to control a warframe. Misery said "undreaming" so I have to assume that he is independent from any sort of outside force or control.

Pure/untainted - by the Lotus when she made the Tenno turn against the Orokin. 

Undreaming - never entered cryo, to which his codex alludes as well. Also, the Tenno were "asleep" and "dreaming" of being their warframes. Now they are awake. Once you walk into the room, the SL opens. The Operator is clearly awake, but the frame is still under their control. So they don't seem to need to be in a dream-like state to control their frame. Not even going to mention that they speak during missions (or is this sleeptalk then?)

And that's excluding the possibility of it being a metaphor! Compared to you, dreaming "not of what you are but what you want to be", the Stalker is not trying to do anything good with the powers he's given anymore. No dreams no ideals, sends hate mail to those who kill infested abominations, why the heck not.

Texts can be read in various ways, especially texts vague as this..

[AEP8FlyBoy]

1 hour ago, Genitive said:

I have a feeling this theory was made by the people who didn't like the outcome of the Second Dream. There, I said it.

Many people loved the outcome of the Second Dream (myself included) but feel like DE hasn't told us everything yet.

There are so many tidbits here and there referring to the Warframes as Sentient beings, only being held back by the Tenno, who need them to channel their powers into... Were it not for the Warframes, the Tenno as we know them would probably cease to exist.

Look at Rhino Prime's Lore, look at the Acolyte Misery's banter during the Shadow Debt event... look at the end of the Second Dream, where our Warframe pulled the War through its chassis to save its Operator. Let me remind you that in order to have any sort of control over a Warframe, a Tenno has to either be in physical contact or in a Somatic Link chamber. Perhaps our Tenno's contact with the Stalker allowed a sort of pseudo-control over the Warframe during the climax of the quest... but I have no idea if that is true... or if it isn't.

But, this is all speculative of course; However... I have a feeling there is something DE isn't telling us about what the Warframes truly are.

Edited March 16, 2016 by AEP8FlyBoy

[honeycream]

8 minutes ago, Belgard said:

Texts can be read in various ways, especially texts vague as this..

I agree. Which makes sussing out where DE is going with this extra fun :V

[BornWithTeeth]

1 hour ago, skelo0 said:

The warframe are sentient and loyal to the orokin

This, right here, combines with the rest of your argument to form its Apotheosis Battle Fusion!...of total nonsense.

 

"The Operators have no control over Warframes at all in any way, they're just the batteries to the Warframes. The Warframes are fully sapient and loyal to the Orokin. The Warframes slaughtered the Orokin, and the Operators didn't make them do it, because they can't make the 'frames do anything. This happened because the Warframes are fully sapient, have their own minds, and are completely loyal to the Orokin."

 

See what I mean?

Edited March 16, 2016 by BornWithTeeth

[BornWithTeeth]

Also, yeah. The idea that Misery's statement means "The Stalker is an independent Warframe, and others can be independent too," is a bit odd. It relies in its entirety on one word, 'undreaming', which might mean that the Stalker is not controlled through Transference, but is just as likely, if not more likely in the context, to refer to how the Stalker didn't go into hibernation after the fall.

[Krion112]

Just to point out, Rhino Prime's codex demonstrates a primordial form of a Rhino Warframe going on a rampage by its own volition, which means that whatever the Warframes are, they were, at least at some point, capable of acting without the Tenno. Plus, the end of the Second Dream demonstrates that they are still somewhat capable of this, as the Warframe you used for it was capable of breaking and tossing the War, despite having no present connection to the operator.

The fact a Warframe shuts down when a Tenno is not linked may be some kind of hamper or safety lock implemented by the Orokin, as the Rhino Prime codex proved that a Warframe not under transference is very dangerous.

Therefore, we can assume that the Warframes are quite capable of acting on their own.

Stalker and his Acolytes could be independent of Tenno or any other potential operators. One thing that's interesting about this idea is that he and his acolytes have been modified from regular Warframes; they have that unique helmet. Perhaps this helmet breaks the possible lock the Orokin could have made to restrain or pacify Warframes not presently controlled by an operator, making them no longer need a Tenno? 

As for directly controlling the Warframe, I want to point out that the Tenno Operator talks to you while you're on a mission. Now, why would they bother to implement this? First of all, we already have Lotus as an adviser character, so clearly its not about providing an element of in-context notifications; it has a different purpose. Second, the Tenno have quite a few lines of dialogue in which they use 'We', as in them and the Warframe, as well as them referring directly to the player, and the only context for who the player is controlling is the Warframe, meaning that the Tenno is talking to its Warframe.

Why would a Tenno be talking to something it was directly controlling? What good does that do? And obviously, there's no game-mechanic that necessitates this; it's purely aesthetic, and if it really wasn't a hint to this differentiating between the Tenno's character and the current Warframe's character, DE wouldn't have had to have implemented this, they could've just added more Lotus dialogue.

As well, from a design perspective, both the Tenno and Warframes being separate characters ingeniously satisfies the age old argument between 'Mono-Tenno' and 'Poly-Tenno'. For the players that wanted to play as a single character, they can feel more like they're playing as their Tenno, which is a single character, and players that wanted to play multiple characters can feel more like they're playing as their Warframes, which are multiple characters.

 

Just my thoughts, though. Obviously DE is going to expand more on what the Warframes are, and in fact Steve already made the suggestion that Hunhow was wrong in assuming the Warframes were just metal puppets.

[skelo0]

3 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

This, right here, combines with the rest of your argument to form its Apotheosis Battle Fusion!...of total nonsense.

 

"The Operators have no control over Warframes at all in any way, they're just the batteries to the Warframes. The Warframes are fully sapient and loyal to the Orokin. The Warframes slaughtered the Orokin, and the Operators didn't make them do it, because they can't make the 'frames do anything. This happened because the Warframes are fully sapient, have their own minds, and are completely loyal to the Orokin."

 

See what I mean?

The warframes killed the orokin against there own will, lotus was controlling them.

[BornWithTeeth]

Skelo0, do you have a source for any of this? At all?

 

 

For instance, you are now saying that the Lotus can control Warframes while the Operator cannot. Please explain literally everything in the game in light of this assertion.

Edited March 17, 2016 by BornWithTeeth

[skelo0]

3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Skelo0, do you have a source for any of this? At all?

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Natah

During the mission, the Sentient speaks to the Lotus, whom he refers to as his daughter, accusing her of betrayal. Through the conversation, it is revealed that Lotus herself was a Sentient, who had infiltrated the ranks of the Orokin to become the Tenno's handler.

 

Once the player accomplishes the mission, the Lotus further clarifies the nature of her betrayal: she was supposed to destroy the Tenno, but did not. She explains that Sentients become incapable of breeding upon arrival at the Origin system, with Teshin realizing that the Lotus desired children of her own, to which the Lotus affirms that she has become the Tenno's 'mother'.

 

[BornWithTeeth]

That...does not relate to what you said at all. In any way.

 

To clarify: what happened during the Natah quest did not reveal any information at all in any way about how Warframes are controlled. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by BornWithTeeth

[paragasu]

1st generation tenno (children of zariman) inside the warframe

2nd generation tenno (operator/children that was experimented into becoming a tenno by replicating the result of the children of zariman) rc warframe, warframe are clones of the 1st generation tenno by utilizing the grineer cloning technology and molded infested virus technology(similar to infested weapon technology)

[skelo0]

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

That...does not relate to what you said at all. In any way.

 

To clarify: what happened during the Natah quest did not reveal any information at all in any way about how Warframes are controlled. 

It related to my previous statement that the Lotus controlled the Warframes and made them kill the orokin

[skelo0]

Also

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow%20Stalker

Some have walked these desolate worlds while you have slept. Some like me. I remember what you did. I remember the day.

 

The Tenno appeared at the Terminus, gleaming and victorious. Our cold and gold Emperors, breathless, bathed you in savior's silk. Then came the sound. Across all our worlds, all at once, the ceremonial Naga drums. A royal salute to the honored Tenno. Ten solemn beats to declare the suffering was over. I watched from a distance, with the rest of the low Guardians. With each beat terror began to crush my throat. The Tenno were not stoic and silent. They were waiting. They were poised. I tried to call out but only a strangled whisper escaped.

 

When the ninth beat rang a torrent of blood filled the stadium, loosed by Tenno blades. The drums, the Empire, fell silent forever.

 

Now I hunt, dividing your numbers. Watching from that dark place, cataloging your sins, I am the ghost of retribution. You may forget but you are not innocent.

- Stalker

 

[Geuax]

6 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Also, yeah. The idea that Misery's statement means "The Stalker is an independent Warframe, and others can be independent too," is a bit odd. It relies in its entirety on one word, 'undreaming', which might mean that the Stalker is not controlled through Transference, but is just as likely, if not more likely in the context, to refer to how the Stalker didn't go into hibernation after the fall.

actually it implies that  the Stalker found out the truth of the warframe, well atleast about the second dream and went renegade ape S#&$ murderer. And they said as much during the second dream so it totaly happened

[stratavar]

1 hour ago, skelo0 said:

Also

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow%20Stalker

Some have walked these desolate worlds while you have slept. Some like me. I remember what you did. I remember the day.

 

The Tenno appeared at the Terminus, gleaming and victorious. Our cold and gold Emperors, breathless, bathed you in savior's silk. Then came the sound. Across all our worlds, all at once, the ceremonial Naga drums. A royal salute to the honored Tenno. Ten solemn beats to declare the suffering was over. I watched from a distance, with the rest of the low Guardians. With each beat terror began to crush my throat. The Tenno were not stoic and silent. They were waiting. They were poised. I tried to call out but only a strangled whisper escaped.

 

When the ninth beat rang a torrent of blood filled the stadium, loosed by Tenno blades. The drums, the Empire, fell silent forever.

 

Now I hunt, dividing your numbers. Watching from that dark place, cataloging your sins, I am the ghost of retribution. You may forget but you are not innocent.

- Stalker

 

Nothing you've stated has really explained your belief of how the Tenno, the children, the OPERATORS are NOT in control of the Warframes.  The only parts of the lore that you've touched on are the parts that everybody already know, and do not touch on the topic of the relationship between the Operators and the Warframes.

 

Fairly certain that it was said multiple times that the Lotus manipulated the TENNO - not the Warframes.  Hell, the word Tenno is suggested to be a play on the name of the ship they were on during the Void Jump accident - The Zariman 10-0.

 

While DE hasn't directly explained things while holding our hands, it's almost undoubtedly likely that the Tenno are controlling the Warframes through the means of Transference, which was developed to allow the Tenno to make use of their powers that they obtained during the Void Jump accident.  The void power was too powerful and dangerous for the children to use directly, but it was believed that if they had a conduit(the Warframe), they could successfully use that power while being out of harm's way.  Transference was explained as a way to project one's "conscious" into a "puppet" that could be controlled.

 

Pretty much all content in the Codex that talks about the creation of Warframes suggests that they are some kind of culmination of the orokin's 3 most potent technologies, or at least 2.  Sentient and Infested technology, and possibly even Grineer Cloning seem make up the Warframes.

 

The thing that seems most likely have caused the events in the Second Dream quest(breaking War without the assistance of the Operator) is the infested flesh of the Warframe.  The infested is a Hive-mind, as shown by both codex entries and gameplay.  What this means is that infested flesh shares a will across all other forms of infestation.  If you've ever seen the movie "Edge of Tomorrow", which is based off of the novel "All You Need is Kill", the enemies there are also a Hive-mind.  Infested flesh lives independently of the main source of consciousness, but essentially follows the "Queen's" will(Queen being the main source of consciousness).  That flesh can also communicate to other organisms that share similarities with one another, which is shown by Infested bosses communicating with us in dialogue, and referring to us as "one of us."  Another thing that you can find in the codex, and also by listening to the operator, is that the older infested entities that have fed on creatures are more powerful, and possibly posses more of a consciousness than younger, weaker infested bodies. 

 

Now that we've taken that detour, we can start to talk about the possibility of the Warframe having a consciousness.  If the Warframes are indeed made of infested flesh, then it is possible that they do in fact contain a form of consciousness within them.  But the question has to be asked - How does the Warframe not simply join the ranks of the infested Hive-mind if it is made of infested flesh?  For one, the operator when talking about the infested suggests that we are "immune" to them, but they still attack us.  Infested attack for the purpose of spreading their infestation, and expanding their ranks.  They're essentially a virus or bacteria.  Every action is for the sake of survival and expansion.  There is something that separates the infested flesh found in our enemies and the infested flesh found inside our Warframes.  This starts moving on to my personal theory about the Warframes at this point, which are two potentially conjoined theories as well.  Sentients continually adapt and build, while Grineer flesh rapidly decomposes.

 

What if the infested flesh inside of our Warframe is continually decomposing, like the Grineer, and then being rebuilt, by the Sentient technology, making it an entirely new substance?  This would allow a fairly potent regeneration factor while being incredibly resilient to damage.  All the while, the current infestation cannot affect the flesh, and the flesh cannot continue to age and build a progressively complex conscience, essentially stunting and freezing its intelligence to a similar level to what was displayed during the Second Dream quest?

 

 

Anyways, that was well off the beaten path of this thread.

TL:DR, Warframes are probably controlled by the Operators through the form of Transference, and the Warframes are practically empty husks.  Infested Flesh in the Warframe allows it to have a consciousness that is overpowered by the Operator, but has some level of survival instinct, which is why it broke War.  It could've been to either protect the Operator, or remove what was hurting it.  Probably the latter though if its consciousness isn't very strong.  Your theory that the Warframes are their own entity and only need the Operator as a source of power has very little to stand on considering what has been divulged in the lore, gameplay, and storylines that we currently have access to.

 

 

[MopUpCrewman]

Reading this thread be like:

[Yrveth]

4 hours ago, skelo0 said:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Natah

During the mission, the Sentient speaks to the Lotus, whom he refers to as his daughter, accusing her of betrayal. Through the conversation, it is revealed that Lotus herself was a Sentient, who had infiltrated the ranks of the Orokin to become the Tenno's handler.

 

Once the player accomplishes the mission, the Lotus further clarifies the nature of her betrayal: she was supposed to destroy the Tenno, but did not. She explains that Sentients become incapable of breeding upon arrival at the Origin system, with Teshin realizing that the Lotus desired children of her own, to which the Lotus affirms that she has become the Tenno's 'mother'.

Quest summaries on the wiki should be deleted outright because they're so out of touch with what's happening in the game. I bet this is written by the same person who also wrote she "selfishly betrayed her sentient peers due to the fact she was infertile and could not have children of her own" on the Story & History page.

Anyone could write anything on the wiki. So, at what point during the Natah quest, with what words, was it revealed that Natah was the Tenno's handler?

Which part of her becoming "the mother" is synonymous with being able to control the warframes? I'm trying to see it from your point of view but there's nothing there.

"Warframes are acting on their own the whole time without the Operator's input" theory could work, barely, with the limited examples provided by some people here BUT only if we neglect the overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary that's been always present in the game, both before and after the 2nd dream. And this is not an option. That's literally not how this works, sorry.

[TennoPain]

I HATE my EMO operator hope we can kill/separete from them in the future it just killed WF lore for me 

[SilvaDreams]

5 minutes ago, TennoPain said:

I HATE my EMO operator hope we can kill/separete from them in the future it just killed WF lore for me 

Then you haven't been paying attention to the lore much, because they have been hinting at it for a while.

[Smilomaniac]

I fawned over all the lore I could find and below is the basic gist I get.
I am almost certain that DE makes up the lore as they go, so I wouldn't rely on everything that's been in the game or outside of it, so far. Warframe is also unique in the sense that it's about the story that you're not being told, rather than the story on the surface.

Warframes are infested who have purposely been sent to the void by the Orokin in order to get "results".
They have become instinctual creatures which can be manipulated by the "pure"(non infested) children who were sent to the void and survived.

As someone has laid it out, Rhino Prime has the codex entry which desribes a savage creature killing everyone until it reaches what looks like the morgue of the Tenno children. One of them seizes control of the pre-suit Rhino, sees from its perspective and stares at its hands, confused.

The warframes (which are infested humans sent to the void and back) have since been refined and adapted to remote use by disciplined and trained Tenno.
Their armor has been crafted for them to look like glorious übermensch, the golden saviors against an overwhelming threat.

This is why each warframe is unique, why they scream, bleed, can be affected by ascaris "worms" and why they can be tortured. They are individuals who have since been cloned to make inferior warframes. The pieces you pick up in the Towers and derelicts might be the remains of the originals.

As for why there are inferior warframes, my guess is that they're designed and made én masse by the Lotus to eradicate the Orokin. There was no need to make pompous and ostentatious frames for this purpose.
So how did Lotus control the Tenno? Complete speculation. Maybe she convinced them that the Orokin were horrible people, showing them how Children were abducted (Inaros story) and sent to the void. Maybe she cut the connection, disabled safeguards and the warframes themselves reverted to mindless monsters that slaughtered everything in sight.
The Tenno might have been indoctrinated to listen to her and obey without question.

-------

Contradiction: In the Ember Prime codex, the Tenno or children themselves are described as having unique powers. In the case of Rhino Prime, it's the Warframe itself.
I suspect someone screwed up on this.

[SilvaDreams]

55 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

I fawned over all the lore I could find and below is the basic gist I get.
I am almost certain that DE makes up the lore as they go, so I wouldn't rely on everything that's been in the game or outside of it, so far. Warframe is also unique in the sense that it's about the story that you're not being told, rather than the story on the surface.

Warframes are infested who have purposely been sent to the void by the Orokin in order to get "results".
They have become instinctual creatures which can be manipulated by the "pure"(non infested) children who were sent to the void and survived.

As someone has laid it out, Rhino Prime has the codex entry which desribes a savage creature killing everyone until it reaches what looks like the morgue of the Tenno children. One of them seizes control of the pre-suit Rhino, sees from its perspective and stares at its hands, confused.

The warframes (which are infested humans sent to the void and back) have since been refined and adapted to remote use by disciplined and trained Tenno.
Their armor has been crafted for them to look like glorious übermensch, the golden saviors against an overwhelming threat.

This is why each warframe is unique, why they scream, bleed, can be affected by ascaris "worms" and why they can be tortured. They are individuals who have since been cloned to make inferior warframes. The pieces you pick up in the Towers and derelicts might be the remains of the originals.

As for why there are inferior warframes, my guess is that they're designed and made én masse by the Lotus to eradicate the Orokin. There was no need to make pompous and ostentatious frames for this purpose.
So how did Lotus control the Tenno? Complete speculation. Maybe she convinced them that the Orokin were horrible people, showing them how Children were abducted (Inaros story) and sent to the void. Maybe she cut the connection, disabled safeguards and the warframes themselves reverted to mindless monsters that slaughtered everything in sight.
The Tenno might have been indoctrinated to listen to her and obey without question.

-------

Contradiction: In the Ember Prime codex, the Tenno or children themselves are described as having unique powers. In the case of Rhino Prime, it's the Warframe itself.
I suspect someone screwed up on this.

Their powers are likely a little of A and B. The base of the frames were selected and made according to their original operators powers to accent them.

 

[BornWithTeeth]

4 hours ago, Geuax said:

actually it implies that  the Stalker found out the truth of the warframe, well atleast about the second dream and went renegade ape S#&$ murderer. And they said as much during the second dream so it totaly happened

Well, yeah. But we knew that already, from (like you said) information that was revealed during the Second Dream.

 

What I meant by saying that is that this word 'undreaming' doesn't actually provide any evidence one way or another as to what the Stalker really is.

 

 

 

Also, @skelo0, you still haven't posted anything to support your core assertion, that the Operators are not at all in control of the Warframes. Every time you are challenged to provide evidence, you link to snippets of lore which are of absolutely no relevance to the question "Are Warframes controlled, and if so, how?"

 

6 hours ago, paragasu said:

1st generation tenno (children of zariman) inside the warframe

2nd generation tenno (operator/children that was experimented into becoming a tenno by replicating the result of the children of zariman) rc warframe, warframe are clones of the 1st generation tenno by utilizing the grineer cloning technology and molded infested virus technology(similar to infested weapon technology)

It's an interesting theory, but it's challenged by the statements of the Operator during the Second Dream. The default player character Operator was on the Zariman, and clearly was not inside their Warframe.

[TARINunit9]

13 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I'm kinda curious about where the idea came from, and why it is so popular. The Second Dream gave us the answer to a question ("How do Warframes work?") by saying "Warframes are controlled remotely by the Tenno." Following this, it seems to me as though people immediately began saying "Yes, that's an answer, but what if everything we just learned in the Second Dream completely false, and the Warframes are actually just doing it all themselves?"

Way to completely miss the point of the theory

The theory is not positing that everything revealed in Second Dream was false

Here's what actually happened:
Stalker severs the link between Zariman kid and Warframe. Then Hunhow claims that Warframes are empty puppets
Then your Warframe sits up, entirely under its own power, proving Hunhow wrong, and destroys War

At no point was "the Zariman kids have no power over the Warframes" part of the theory

The theory is that Warframes and Zariman kids form mental symbiosis. The theory states that the Warframes have a (vague, implied to be rather small) level of power, that they are not a bunch of inanimate, glorified forklifts with guns. The Zariman kids are in charge, but they are not the entirety of the equation

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

Way to completely miss the point of the theory

The theory is not positing that everything revealed in Second Dream was false

Here's what actually happened:
Stalker severs the link between Zariman kid and Warframe. Then Hunhow claims that Warframes are empty puppets
Then your Warframe sits up, entirely under its own power, proving Hunhow wrong, and destroys War

At no point was "the Zariman kids have no power over the Warframes" part of the theory

The theory is that Warframes and Zariman kids form mental symbiosis. The theory states that the Warframes have a (vague, implied to be rather small) level of power, that they are not a bunch of inanimate, glorified forklifts with guns. The Zariman kids are in charge, but they are not the entirety of the equation

Uh, you're aware that lots of people do posit that the Operators are not actually controlling the Warframes, and that at most they're issuing verbal orders to the Warframes, like a commanding officer?

[TARINunit9]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

Uh, you're aware that lots of people do posit that the Operators are not actually controlling the Warframes, and that at most they're issuing verbal orders to the Warframes, like a commanding officer?

I have not heard this theory. Ever. Not one person I have seen has gone this far. Only you have posted it, which makes me assume that you are misunderstanding the theory