Please remove the possibility of getting common mods from rare mod transmutation

[Tobiah]

Please remove the chance to get commons from rares when transmuting. Getting ammo drums from power throws doesn't really make sense, especially with the cost of transmuting.

Getting commons makes transmutation prohibitively expensive.

It wrecks the system and makes people not want to use a relatively nice method of new getting mods from surplus mods.

 

TL;DR: Title

[Inugami8]

It's part of the risk

[Navarc]

If there's a part of a game that exclusively angers and upsets people and doesn't really reward or enhance player experience, it's best to remove it.
Transmuting and getting lower tier items is one of those things. 

You don't bypass the grind or anything, it's just gambling. You can very well transmute 4 rare Power Throws into 1 single Power Throw. If you're incredibly lucky you might just get exactly what you're looking for but with the amount of mods there are and considering that we are only ever going to get more and more mods constantly reducing the chance of getting specific mods, this is a necessary change if transmuting is going to continue being something people would consider doing. 
The core concept is still there, destroy mods in order to get another - but it's random and it's unranked. Just don't let them be lower tier than they were. Should also take into consideration that the concept of transmutation is different than the alchemy psuedoscience concept. It's turn X item into something random of equal or better value. Not turn 4 good value items into 1 useless one. The concept wouldn't even exist in gaming if this is what it would end up doing.



I do think however that if you use 1 common and 3 rare mods, that the mod should still be able to turn into a common or uncommon mod. Otherwise people are going to be as cheap as possible and just try to skimp out and try to come up with tactics to make transmuting as boring as possible. 

This will most likely not happen because of the chance that people can get items meaning they can skip ahead of some grinding which is most of the gameplay. Skipping ahead without using platinum isn't something DE has supported or I think will ever support. But it doesn't change the idea from being a good one.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Lusie

[Noabettiet]

I don't see why not.

it isn't a drastic change or a game breaking one... Plus it is still a huge gamble regardless.

[SonicSonedit]

4 hours ago, Lusie said:

This will most likely not happen because of the chance that people can get items meaning they can skip ahead of some grinding which is most of the gameplay. Skipping ahead without using platinum isn't something DE has supported or I think will ever support. But it doesn't change the idea from being a good one.

Hey. here is the idea: add "Transmutator Catalyst" to the shop for, lets say, 50 plat. If you use this single-use item during transmutation you will be guranteed to get mod you don't have yet. DE gets their $$$, people mitigate the grind, everyone is happy.

Edited March 22, 2016 by SonicSonedit

[AutoPhox]

I think Simaris has trans mods that garentee rare mods of a specific polarity for 'free'.

[SonicSonedit]

1 hour ago, AutoPhox said:

I think Simaris has trans mods that garentee rare mods of a specific polarity for 'free'.

They guarantee polarity, not rarity.

[Navarc]

55 minutes ago, AutoPhox said:

I think Simaris has trans mods that garentee rare mods of a specific polarity for 'free'.

I think you misread. No one is talking about polarities.

[AutoPhox]

29 minutes ago, SonicSonedit said:

They guarantee polarity, not rarity.

OK, wasn't sure.

 Ive only transmuted a few times, and stopped after I saw how horrible the gamble was.

I guess it's only for the super rich or super desperate. 

Edited March 22, 2016 by AutoPhox

[AutoPhox]

2 minutes ago, Lusie said:

I think you misread. No one is talking about polarities.

I understand the delema. I was just trying to be specific/helpful

[Bibliothekar]

I'd already be okay with Simaris getting a Rarity Transmutation Core that ensures that the result is of the same rarity as the used mods. You'd still have to play the game to farm standing for him, but at least it'd make transmutation a bit less ugly. He could also use some Transmutation Cores for the polarities he's currently missing, but that's another topic.

[Rinslaughter]

Or how about a 100 plat [transmutation luck charm] that is installed as a ship part and is sold on the store. The blueprint could also be added and have it cost like 1,000,000 credits some argon and nitain(because why not amirite). It would prevent transmuted mods from being of lower quality than the ones used. Everyone wins. common mods could be used to target gamble common, uncommon for uncommon and rares for rares. IF you use a split number than you get a split % chance 25% of that tier per mod used. 1 common, 2 uncommon and 1 rare yields a 25% chance for common, 50% chance for uncommon and 25% chance for rare. 

[taiiat]

as ever - Rare Warframe Abilities used to be there, but people whined about getting them (even though that was a 'here is 25% of your investment back even though you lose' reward).

so now you get Common and Uncommon instead.
this Community can be really ignorant sometimes.

[Bibliothekar]

7 hours ago, taiiat said:

as ever - Rare Warframe Abilities used to be there, but people whined about getting them

Well, I'd rather get a rare ability mod when transmuting 4 rares than yet another ammo drum. Also, RNG for transmutation seems to be faulty - if you happen to have a bad seed, you'll get nothing but crap (i.e. common mods) for that session.

[Navarc]

7 hours ago, taiiat said:

as ever - Rare Warframe Abilities used to be there, but people whined about getting them (even though that was a 'here is 25% of your investment back even though you lose' reward).

so now you get Common and Uncommon instead.
this Community can be really ignorant sometimes.

"It used to be worse" isn't an excuse or change the fact that something is not good.
It's better now, but it's not where it should or could be.

[kubbi]

The rarity of the mods used should affect the outcome of the result like it used to.

We used to get ability mods when transmutating. The community asked the removal of those mods and what did we get? Ability mods got removed but the rarity of mods no longer affect the outcome. 

I honestly have no understanding for why DE added a change we never asked for. For balance?? Transmutating takes the sacrifice of 4 mods plus a lot of credits for a random mod we probably won't need. So it was a balanced system minus the ability mods. 

We asked for a change for improval and they went on their way and made it worse... 

[UnderFiend]

I feel like if one transmuted 4 rares, they were guaranteed a rare mod, and then for some reason, this was stealth changed.

I agree that transmutation should result in equal or better, not worse; I'd be fine if 4 rares resulted in a "rare" uncommon as there are some uncommons that have lower drop rates, like Stances.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

15 hours ago, SonicSonedit said:

Hey. here is the idea: add "Transmutator Catalyst" to the shop for, lets say, 50 plat. If you use this single-use item during transmutation you will be guranteed to get mod you don't have yet. DE gets their $$$, people mitigate the grind, everyone is happy.

That's interesting. Are pvp mods and latest event mods transmutable? Could be a big plat sink.

[Vohim]

one of two has to happen

lower  rarity than mods transmuted has to go 

or

Credit Fee has to go 

 

we are already dumping 4 of our Rare mods why are we charged  tons ontop of it ?

Edited March 23, 2016 by Retepzednem

[Manyc]

20 hours ago, Tobiah said:

Please remove the chance to get commons from rares when transmuting. Getting ammo drums from power throws doesn't really make sense, especially with the cost of transmuting.

Getting commons makes transmutation prohibitively expensive.

It wrecks the system and makes people not want to use a relatively nice method of new getting mods from surplus mods.

 

TL;DR: Title

Keep in mind this is meant to allow Veterans who stockpile credits and duplicate mods endlessly without an aim. It's a resource sinking system just like the blueprints for Neurodes or Neural Sensors. It's mean to get rid of the excessive amount of unwanted / unneeded resources that keep pilling up. 

For players who are more recent to the game it's a risk they have to decide to take or not, to gain an edge, it's a free way because you can also manage some plat to buy them from players, also there's the Simaris transmutation cores to ease on the credits fee and narrow it down. If they still feel that it's not worthy because it's using expensive / valuable resources (creds/mods) then it's not meant for you yet.

There's no need to remove it or fix it, you don't have to fix a wrench just because you've been hammering nails with it and it's not working properly.

[taiiat]

10 hours ago, Bibliothekar said:

Well, I'd rather get a rare ability mod when transmuting 4 rares than yet another ammo drum.

exactly!

10 hours ago, Lusie said:

It's better now

no it isn't. Rare Warframe Abilities was a 25% refund. now you get Common and Uncommon Mods in exact percentage in their place.
how is that better?

[Bibliothekar]

5 hours ago, Manyc said:

Keep in mind this is meant to allow Veterans who stockpile credits and duplicate mods endlessly without an aim. It's a resource sinking system just like the blueprints for Neurodes or Neural Sensors. It's mean to get rid of the excessive amount of unwanted / unneeded resources that keep pilling up.

Well, I've usually used transmutation to get mods I didn't have yet - either because they're new or because their drop chance is close to ε. So even with same rarity, I'll get dozens of mods that I already own. Getting yet another ammo drum from four rare mods just adds insult to injury. And it leads to me not using transmutation at all any more. Why should I? So I'll continue to sit on all those mods and credits.

[Manyc]

13 minutes ago, Bibliothekar said:

Well, I've usually used transmutation to get mods I didn't have yet - either because they're new or because their drop chance is close to ε. So even with same rarity, I'll get dozens of mods that I already own. Getting yet another ammo drum from four rare mods just adds insult to injury. And it leads to me not using transmutation at all any more. Why should I? So I'll continue to sit on all those mods and credits.

Transmutation RNG isn't supposed to be better than PvE RNG, otherwise people would just simply farm Creds and a few rare mods and get what they wanted from Transmutation and then ignore PvE. It's to sink excess not substitute gameplay. An extra way. If the mod is rare on PvE, it will of course be also rare in Transmutation.

You expect to gamble to win, that's why you suffer from failure, look at it as an extra reward. Like as if it was a "booster".

 

[Tzolkat]

I agree that getting a common mod that you have 1,000 of from an expensive transmute of four rare mods just shouldn't be able to happen, and because this is possible I can't really find a reason to bother using it at all. Hoarding my duplicates and either giving them to clan-mates or using them to power fusion is a far more appealing choice.

I think that internally, the tier of the mods you put in should be numbered 0-2, and the tier of mod you get back should be the floor of the average. So, if you put in four rares [avg(2, 2, 2, 2) = 2], you are guaranteed another rare. If you put in three rares and a common [avg(2, 2, 2, 0) = 1.5 = 1], you will get an uncommon. It's a more predictable system. I also think that the rank of the mods being sacrificed should somewhat alter the probability of getting a mod that you don't yet own, such that if you sacrifice four rank 10 mods that are all maxed out, you have a very high chance of getting a mod you don't have.

Alternatively, if transmutation can't be reworked to make it more than just a vestigial feature, it should just be removed from the game.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Tzolkat

[Manyc]

11 minutes ago, Tzolkat said:

I agree that getting a common mod that you have 1,000 of from an expensive transmute of four rare mods just shouldn't be able to happen, and because this is possible I can't really find a reason to bother using it at all. Hoarding my duplicates and either giving them to clan-mates or using them to power fusion is a far more appealing choice.

I agree with you on the part where you should probably give them to new players / clan-mates. Helping the next one is always the best. In term of powering fusion it's a much bigger waste, probably of the same size as you consider that it's a waste using them in Transmutation.

 

14 minutes ago, Tzolkat said:

I think that internally, the tier of the mods you put in should be numbered 0-2, and the tier of mod you get back should be the floor of the average. So, if you put in four rares [avg(2, 2, 2, 2) = 2], you are guaranteed another rare. If you put in three rares and a common [avg(2, 2, 2, 0) = 1.5 = 1], you will get an uncommon. It's a more predictable system. I also think that the rank of the mods being sacrificed should somewhat alter the probability of getting a mod that you don't yet own, such that if you sacrifice four rank 10 mods that are all maxed out, you have a very high chance of getting a mod you don't have.

I can't agree with the first part of this. How can you think about making a gamble predictable? How do you think gambling works? Just because that's what Transmutation is supposed to be, a gambling system!

But I could agree with the last part. Just like as you increase the chances by using higher rarity mods (being using 4 rares gives higher chances of getting a rare than using 3r +1u or anything below it) using ranked mods for higher chances could be a thing. Just wasteful with the current trading we have as you'd get more plat out of a single R10 mod than you'd probably pay to actually buy the mod you're looking for from another player.

17 minutes ago, Tzolkat said:

Alternatively, if transmutation can't be reworked to make it more than just a vestigial feature, it should just be removed from the game.

Let's keep it rational here. This thread shows an extremely minority of people who dislike the gambling system. We need to keep in mind that there's thousands of players out there still using Transmutation with a purpose / goal. Just don't use it, it's not filling up unnecessary space in your Liset nor it's in the way of other options. You can simply not use it, so there's no need to remove something from the other players just because 'we' don't like it.