Why do nullifiers still exist?

[Racter]

1 hour ago, SquireAngel said:

You should know better than to challenge something far beyond your level. While there isn't a true level system to measure the tenno themselves by, you should still have an idea of where you sit, and that you're going to have difficulty with mobs of a level beyond your capacity to deal dmg against. You're saying that level divide should be removed, and that leveling mods and the like shouldn't be a barrier for newer players. Now, before you get all 'you put words in my mouth', or 'you twisted my words', Let's take a look at every other MMO that doesn't literally lock it's areas behind level gates. It's the players fault if they wander into a lvl 40 zone as a lvl 15, and get crushed by a lvl 40 trash mob. A 50 hour player shouldn't be able to clear the solar map, which is in line with the logic you're applying. A player being able to reach a mission, regardless of conclave rating (the closest we have to a level system), and being able to clear it is bad logic. WF has a leveling process, and 50 hours is much too little to gain the cores/mods that will be required to for content where Nullifiers+etc show up. While WF's leveling process is different to many other games, it's still present, and it must still be dealt with to reach higher tier content. 

Dude what? 50 hours is easily enough to clear most if not all of the star map and Nullifiers show up on the second planet, lol

[(XBOX)Doomed2Rights]

Honestly if they just allowed punch through on those bubbles i wouldnt have an issue with them.

[-NEO-Roguelike]

Punchtrough - bad way to rework nulls. All we need - is just make slow rate weapons same effective as high firerate are.

[SquireAngel]

1 hour ago, Roguelike said:

Punchtrough - bad way to rework nulls. All we need - is just make slow rate weapons same effective as high firerate are.

Agreed. The only thing I think should be done with punchthrough regarding bubbles at all, is punchthrough being consistent. Some odd tweaks that work very oddly with bubbles, Frost's included.
 

@Racter0325 really depends on the player I suppose, but most individuals who have played 50ish hours are usually barely mr3, and usually don't even have things like Serration, Vitality, and redirection. Some do, but most don't have reliable DPS and sruvivability to endure the road across the stars. 

Edited March 26, 2016 by SquireAngel

[Marthrym]

If their bubbles didn't make more than half of our available weapons irrelevant, I'd be more or less okay with them. Because even if it is entirely possible to go in the bubble to kill them, the risk/reward ratio seems a little bit unfairly "balanced". Or imbalanced rather.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Marthrym

[Eminem2420]

OP, you really need to learn to be more respectful of other players' opinions. People will naturally have a different opinion than yours, and that doesn't make them a "toxic white knight." Labeling them as such and typing in all caps seems very immature to me. 

I am going to have an unpopular opinion, but i think nullifers are fine. They need a few tweaks imo, but otherwise they make things interesting. Snipers and Bow weapons need to be looked at in terms of nullifiers shields. Until DE does, i always keep a rapid fire secondary with me when using one of these weapon types. Nullifers were placed in game around the time people started farming Cerebus, Pluto. I think it made DE realize that enemies need some sort of ability that disables WF abilities. You wonder why they were placed in the game? I think they were placed in the game to make you think a little bit before dealing with them, and to add to enemy variety. 

[IceColdHawk]

9 hours ago, Stratego89 said:

 They're not that hard- you just have to be willing to change up how you play a bit to adapt to them. That's the entire point of their existence.

The entire point of their existence is screwing with people's nerves while making them skip corpus sorties. Sorry but no, unless you're using dirty ways, you can't adapt to them. And unlike bursas, they spawn on mass. 1 nullifier once in a while isn't a big deal i would be ok with that. But i still prefer a bubble that makes us able to shoot through and not completely dispell our abilities for god damn's sake..(hey rumblers and shadows, how's it going?).

Let's take a look at what we got now of a nullifier. For example, our mate just got downed, rhino comes to safety, stomps once so he can help his teammate but oh no, the nullifier who includes a railgun moa and a tech in his overdimensional bubble made them all immune thus they DPS you to death. Oh okay, that's just 1 case. Arctic eximus, mhhhm, i surely love being unable to shoot his bubble, especially since crit weapons only scratch that globe. Best scenario: 5 nullifiers on the field, some of them are eximii. 2 are even on the same place, you can't shoot both bubbles down together so you got to shoot down one by one. You can't cc them, not even cc the enemies inside the bubble, you are literally screwed and probably lie on the ground. Unless you're playing overly tanky frames like valkyr or wukong while staying outside of the bubble or inside a frost globe. Hell, you can still get knocked down into a bubble. And then we got frames like chroma who are totally useless against nullies since he is forced to use a high RoF weapon just to take them out, otherwise his 2 and 3 get disspelled. You are simply on your own tankiness and weapons. Warframe abilities, hm, who needs those right? Just make everything in the bubble completely immune to it while disspelling everything that comes in touch. Yeah, truely a nice challenge and totally balanced. Wanna know what? It's not a shooter game anymore, it's more of a hide n seek game where touching the bubble means death.

8 hours ago, Manyc said:

Have you tried giving use to your secondary? Just like you I'm a bow user, wanting those skill shots. Then again we're playing a ninja game, ninjas work with the best tools for each task, just bring some silenced dual quick pistols, pop a burst on it, by the time it takes the bubble to disappear you have the bow ready to snipe him without him noticing you.

I'm not sure which game you are playing, but i'm definitely not playing a ninja game.

8 hours ago, magusat999 said:

Exactly my point. When you are mobbed by continuous streams of enemies, the response SHOULD be to CC them. That is why CC Warframes were created - to CC... At level 100+ (the OP specified his topic is about 100+ enemies, not easy to deal with level 60 enemies like the poster a couple of posts below you uses as an example) - EVERY ENEMY is already tough to take down - it is ludicrous to have to concentrate fire on one enemy without the benefit of  inhibiting it. Also, at that level you aren't dealing with one Nullifier, as some people are speaking in their examples - you are dealing with continuous hordes of them swarming in. So it is not as simple as you suggest and we are not talking about Street Fighter where you fight one enemy at a time. As you are concentrating fire on the Nullifier, there are other enemies mobbing you. As the level rises it gets more critical that you deal with the mobs in a quick and efficient way. That is what abilities, which for the life of me I never can figure out why someone would play Warframe and NOT want to use them, are for. There are other games that cater to just regular people with guns - like Call of Duty. We are one against many, so CC IS part of the game (and fun) and people need to get over it or play something else. Finally, "dealing with a specific enemy" IS is the problem. We shouldn't have to take so much time for a specific, regular enemy. If it was a boss or a mini-boss, well yes. But these are regular spawns who's only function seems to spoil all the fun of playing Warframe.

Words of wisdom. I like you.

By all respect. I cannot understand people defending nullifiers especially since combas are in the game (who are way better btw). I got 2 speculations though. Bribery is one of them. The other one is that people never encountered a seriously annoying and hopeless situation against nullifiers. Like: "Oh there is a lvl 30 nullifier, lemme slide them! *everything falls down* Hehe, that was easy. I totally can't understand people complaining about such a good enemy. They probably are mad cuz they can't press 4 to win them" (also fun fact: hose the bubble down and press 2 as mag, that was 1 example of what i meant with dirty ways as previously mentioned btw)

It's the same game as what happened with the shock eximus. People complain about a lazy design and also op design and there were still people defending it. Funny was, more and more people tended to change their mind after few days have passed. 

TL;DR: Nullifiers are neither fun nor challenging, they're annoying and cheap! Combas and Scrambus are here, top design, now it's time to remove or tweak the nullifier.

[Stratego89]

4 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

The entire point of their existence is screwing with people's nerves while making them skip corpus sorties. Sorry but no, unless you're using dirty ways, you can't adapt to them. And unlike bursas, they spawn on mass. 1 nullifier once in a while isn't a big deal i would be ok with that. But i still prefer a bubble that makes us able to shoot through and not completely dispell our abilities for god damn's sake..(hey rumblers and shadows, how's it going?).

Let's take a look at what we got now of a nullifier. For example, our mate just got downed, rhino comes to safety, stomps once so he can help his teammate but oh no, the nullifier who includes a railgun moa and a tech in his overdimensional bubble made them all immune thus they DPS you to death. Oh okay, that's just 1 case. Arctic eximus, mhhhm, i surely love being unable to shoot his bubble, especially since crit weapons only scratch that globe. Best scenario: 5 nullifiers on the field, some of them are eximii. 2 are even on the same place, you can't shoot both bubbles down together so you got to shoot down one by one. You can't cc them, not even cc the enemies inside the bubble, you are literally screwed and probably lie on the ground. Unless you're playing overly tanky frames like valkyr or wukong while staying outside of the bubble or inside a frost globe. Hell, you can still get knocked down into a bubble. And then we got frames like chroma who are totally useless against nullies since he is forced to use a high RoF weapon just to take them out, otherwise his 2 and 3 get disspelled. You are simply on your own tankiness and weapons. Warframe abilities, hm, who needs those right? Just make everything in the bubble completely immune to it while disspelling everything that comes in touch. Yeah, truely a nice challenge and totally balanced. Wanna know what? It's not a shooter game anymore, it's more of a hide n seek game where touching the bubble means death.

Yep, I'm done. No matter what topic, no matter what thread, no matter when or where- there is no reasoning with you. You don't test stuff before saying it's garbage. You do not read what people say before responding. You now carry some sort of "purist fighting style" attitude. Seriously? "unless you're using dirty ways"? Wtf does that even mean? I'm done with you dude, why should I give you respectful, thought out responses with reasonable logic when you will not read mine and when you will not use sound logic yourself- instead spewing lies and information you have no clue is incorrect because you refuse to even try things before you say they're bad.

[Troll_Logic]

21 hours ago, Xzorn said:

So by that logic I shouldn't be using Ignis on 100% of content under level 50. Including Tower4 Ext, MD and basically any non-endless or Sorties.

Yet I do.

No, that's not logic.  You may as well say "I shouldn't be using <insert weapon> on all content under level 10.  Or 20.  With low level content, you can take a 5 forma warframe into any mission with a melee weapon and be fine.

A single nullifier is nothing but an annoyance.  A few is a hindrance,  But mix a dozen in with another 40 enemies on the 20th wave on Triton and you've got a completely different scenario than just 40 enemies.  Or any other combination on a high level.

Nullifiers in high level missions change the the way people have to play.  That's why players complain about them so much.

[Troll_Logic]

5 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Let's take a look at what we got now of a nullifier. For example, our mate just got downed, rhino comes to safety, stomps once so he can help his teammate but oh no, the nullifier who includes a railgun moa and a tech in his overdimensional bubble made them all immune thus they DPS you to death. Oh okay, that's just 1 case.

THAT'S

THE

POINT.

Players get complacent.  They get careless.  They get lazy.  They get OP.  They run around with a warframe, three weapons, and a total of 20 forma and they expect to bulldoze, cast, raze, burn, freeze, blast, poison, puncture, slash, smash, and God knows what else as they run through a mission free from the thought of losing.

Then the Corpus come up with a nullifier.  After all, if you were part of the Corpus, wouldn't you try to develop something to combat the magic of the warframes?

[IceColdHawk]

5 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

THAT'S

THE

POINT.

Players get complacent.  They get careless.  They get lazy.  They get OP.  They run around with a warframe, three weapons, and a total of 20 forma and they expect to bulldoze, cast, raze, burn, freeze, blast, poison, puncture, slash, smash, and God knows what else as they run through a mission free from the thought of losing.

Then the Corpus come up with a nullifier.  After all, if you were part of the Corpus, wouldn't you try to develop something to combat the magic of the warframes?

Same can be said about the grineer. Apparently they like to get roflstomped, no? Also, i'm not that type of guy who complains because he has to "adapt". Look, you never see me complaining about bursa, scrambus or sapping ospreys. You can actually counter them in a nice way. Unlike nullifiers. Look, we got new nullify units that work exactly how the nullifier should have worked from the beginning. I love it. But nullifier is just completely trivializing gameplay on an ugly way. Also i might remind you why most people play warframe. It's a shooter with abilities. Nullifiers make them a usual shooter where not even slow hitting weapons work good against them. He shouldn't be able to block every possible ability, it's just cheap. Also, don't get me started about explosive weapons...

Oh yeah, explosives. That seem to work against volt shields and frost bubbles, but don't work against an electromagnetic field that blocks SPELLS? That should ONLY block spells at all?? Dude, this guy is broken and shouldn't work the way he works now. Don't deny it.

Edited March 26, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[Troll_Logic]

12 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Oh yeah, explosives. That seem to work against volt shields and frost bubbles, but don't work against an electromagnetic field that blocks SPELLS? That should ONLY block spells at all?? Dude, this guy is broken and shouldn't work the way he works now. Don't deny it.

Ok, so let's say your corpus scientist. You've invented a backpack that projects a bubble that nullifies all the hated warframe abilities.  For the first time, the Corpus have a way to counteract the warframes' magic.

So you pack up your invention and you fly to see Alad V.  You show him your tech and he loves it.  You mention "You know what I can also add?  I can add a forcefield to the backpack so that the wearer and the corpus around him will be protected."

Alad V replies "Nah.  You know just the nullifier will be enough.  I don't think any warframe will be smart enough to shoot the guy wearing the backpack."

 

What sense does that make?  Adding a forcefield to protect the wearer makes perfect sense.

[IceColdHawk]

10 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

Ok, so let's say your corpus scientist. You've invented a backpack that projects a bubble that nullifies all the hated warframe abilities.  For the first time, the Corpus have a way to counteract the warframes' magic.

So you pack up your invention and you fly to see Alad V.  You show him your tech and he loves it.  You mention "You know what I can also add?  I can add a forcefield to the backpack so that the wearer and the corpus around him will be protected."

Alad V replies "Nah.  You know just the nullifier will be enough.  I don't think any warframe will be smart enough to shoot the guy wearing the backpack."

 

What sense does that make?  Adding a forcefield to protect the wearer makes perfect sense.

Sense doesn't apply to warframe. Also this isn't real life, it's a video game.

[WiFiBuddha]

This thread makes me laugh. I will forever defend nullifiers. They actively force players out of their comfort zone, force them to switch up their weapons/position etc. and crush all the players who rely on "one trick pony" frames to get things done. If you complain that a nullifier hard counters your favourite weapon, guess what, secondaries and melee exist. If you know that nullifiers will spawn, equip accordingly. Also their abilities is clearly telegraphed and you know the rules that apply to it. Its up to you to play around it.
If you have to complain about corpus complain about thumpers.

[Maicael]

6 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

FIFY.

I see Nullicancer defence squad is at large. Ah, the usual.

I suppose you'd like to see Nullifiers as effective at defense as Shield Lancers? Just turn Corpus into Grineer that only need Toxin damage to be trivialized instead of x4 Corrosive Projection.

Sure, their spawns could be toned down at high levels and replaced with having units follow them to both be protected and protect the Nullifier, but their role as a Defensive unit for allies is perfectly valid in terms of combat. Combas/Scrambus keep getting mentioned as balanced versions of a nullifier, but they are merely the patchwork Offensive version that doesn't protect allies and only nullifies a certain set of abilities. That's why they have 1100 base health and 400 Proto-shields versus the Nullifiers 60 health and 150 shields combined with a couple of high-damage AoE and seeking weapons. It's almost like comparing the Liset to an Archwing.

[EvilChaosKnight]

3 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

You didn't fix anything.  It works both ways dude.  If you're tired of discussing things with me because I won't change my mind I have no problem with you stopping.

Now getting back to the point, I consider the argument that "We're going to add a nullifier on this corpus but not a forcefield" to be unreasonable.  Having both makes sense.  Having one without the other doesn't make sense and if someone is going to fastidiously hold to that unreasonable position then it doesn't make any sense for me to keep discussing this with him.

Now, if you think that my position in unreasonable then it doesn't make much sense for you to keep discussing this with me.  The only difference is I'm not getting bent out of shape about it.

Capisce? 

Keep discussing? I've just joined. Goes to tell how much attention you pay to the topic as I don't even share an avatar with anyone. Maybe your eyes need some rest?

But since you've replied to me personally, let's get this started. But before that a small disclaimer: I am one of dem people who play for fun. So as a person who plays for fun I can say that Nullies are not fun to fight against as they lack proper counterplay.

Now let's look at it from a game design standpoint. We have several weapon classes, some of which are pretty gimmicky and hard to play with. Namely Bows, Snipers and non-Tonkor Launchers. What Nullies do to them? Punish them even further. Go ahead, try to kill a Nullie with an Ogris or Angstrum. We also have easy type weapons like bullet hoses, AOE stuff and most shotguns. Do they have to struggle with Nullies? Nowhere as much. Are they already superior? Why yes, of course!

So rich people get richer and poor people get poorer, just like IRL, eh? F**k me if I want to have some fun with my Dread or Penta or Ogris, right? I mean who cares about such junk? We got Synoid Simulor and Sancti Tigris!

[EvilChaosKnight]

1 minute ago, Maicael said:

I suppose you'd like to see Nullifiers as effective at defense as Shield Lancers? Just turn Corpus into Grineer that only need Toxin damage to be trivialized instead of x4 Corrosive Projection.

Sure, their spawns could be toned down at high levels and replaced with having units follow them to both be protected and protect the Nullifier, but their role as a Defensive unit for allies is perfectly valid in terms of combat. Combas/Scrambus keep getting mentioned as balanced versions of a nullifier, but they are merely the patchwork Offensive version that doesn't protect allies and only nullifies a certain set of abilities. That's why they have 1100 base health and 400 Proto-shields versus the Nullifiers 60 health and 150 shields combined with a couple of high-damage AoE and seeking weapons. It's almost like comparing the Liset to an Archwing.

Arctic Eximi are valid defence roles because they protect against weapons and AOE.

Combas and Scrambi are valid defence roles because they protect against abilities.

Shield lancers are valid defence because they protect against guns and spawn in dozens. Also ever were shot by their Viper? Hits harder than you'd expect.

Nullifiers are bulls***t because they protect against guns, abilities AND AOE. And hit hard still. And share same EXP amount and spawnrate as sniper units. And the best part? The very moment anything is effective against them, it gets nerfed not to be. Atomos? Nope. Sonicor? Nope. AOE weapons? Nope. So go bullet hose or go home, Tenno.

[phoenix1992]

*treads carefully*
I like the concept of nulifiers. I do not like the spawn rate, and how buggy they are. I mean.... It is okay - you can deal with one two of them when they pop up on intervals, but those like to come in like mad insects. Which was also the original problem of the Bursa units - over spawning. 
Maybe tweaking them up, in order to not to be so... Annoying would be a good step forward.

[Foefaller]

I love Nulifiers, you know why? because they increase the difficulty of the fight without adding a bunch of zeroes to the enemy's damage or health.

Plus I have yet to find a nulifier that didn't completely melt when I got within melee range. Normally play Valkyr, so melee's normally my thing and losing Warcry and/or Hysteria for the two seconds it takes to do a sliding melee and reapply is rarely a risk factor, especially with Life Strike. Did have a positive experience with a Mirage though, base size of the null field + full set of Mirrors meant I could pop the bubble very fast and get a long-ranged shot at the nullifier without ever having to get close. If you were a regular frame, and took a bullet hose like AkSomati to swap to when the nulifiers show up...

Wait, did I just think up a legit reason to bring Speed Holster!? Who would have believed it!

[Troll_Logic]

50 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Keep discussing? I've just joined. Goes to tell how much attention you pay to the topic as I don't even share an avatar with anyone. Maybe your eyes need some rest?

Maybe you can just reread my post.

54 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Now let's look at it from a game design standpoint. We have several weapon classes, some of which are pretty gimmicky and hard to play with. Namely Bows, Snipers and non-Tonkor Launchers. What Nullies do to them? Punish them even further. Go ahead, try to kill a Nullie with an Ogris or Angstrum. We also have easy type weapons like bullet hoses, AOE stuff and most shotguns. Do they have to struggle with Nullies? Nowhere as much. Are they already superior? Why yes, of course!

So you have a bring a different weapon depending on the mission and/or enemies?

50 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

So rich people get richer and poor people get poorer, just like IRL, eh?

Huh?

[Maicael]

1 hour ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Arctic Eximi are valid defence roles because they protect against weapons and AOE.

Combas and Scrambi are valid defence roles because they protect against abilities.

Shield lancers are valid defence because they protect against guns and spawn in dozens. Also ever were shot by their Viper? Hits harder than you'd expect.

Nullifiers are bulls***t because they protect against guns, abilities AND AOE. And hit hard still. And share same EXP amount and spawnrate as sniper units. And the best part? The very moment anything is effective against them, it gets nerfed not to be. Atomos? Nope. Sonicor? Nope. AOE weapons? Nope. So go bullet hose or go home, Tenno.

Arctic Eximi do provide a decent defense against weapons, but don't do much if anything against powers which can disable them and make that protection useless. I think this is more of the scale that Shield Lancers should be. Not necessarily having a globe and from only one Shield mind you, but something that provides actually noticeable protection.

Combas/Scrambus prevent certain powers from being used near them, but do not prevent effects from abilities applying to them or nearby allies. (Tested by permanently Disarming them with Loki. Equinox's Rest put them to sleep unless I entered their nullification zone. Also tested with Mind Control, Chaos, Desiccation, and Scarab Swarm. And just so there's no mistake, I made sure the ability cast was one they nullified before attempting to use it on them.)

Shield Lancers provide very little protection for themselves, let alone allies. Completely vulnerable from 4 sides, easy to hit from the front, 5th side using the exposed top portion from accurate fire or from AoE. They may spawn in dozens throughout a mission, but I've never encountered more than 3-4 at any one time. In terms of combat they spend a good amount of time slowly approaching without firing compared to other units. Even when firing the pistols are pretty inaccurate if you're moving. IMO their AI and ally AI should be modified to create groups more like this:

Spoiler

I regularly bring my Sonicor to use against Nullifiers with my bow equipped, so I don't know what you've got against it. It's not a speed-demon, but it gets the job done and is even effective with multiple Nullifiers at once. They're also very weak without their bubble, so many times I'll just slide through and pin them with my bow or slice them with a slide attack. That's what I resorted to with Vulkar Wraith on a Sniper only Corpus Survival Sortie, which I'll admit was some seriously annoying BS, but we still managed. As soon as they're dead you can recast whatever protective or CC ability you want to handle any enemies they were previously protected.

[Xzorn]

On 3/25/2016 at 5:55 PM, Troll_Logic said:

They make people change the way they play.  So players can't have "This is my ultimate killing setup that wins against everything." and use it every mission.

Your original statement.

6 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

No, that's not logic.  You may as well say "I shouldn't be using <insert weapon> on all content under level 10.  Or 20.  With low level content, you can take a 5 forma warframe into any mission with a melee weapon and be fine.

A single nullifier is nothing but an annoyance.  A few is a hindrance,  But mix a dozen in with another 40 enemies on the 20th wave on Triton and you've got a completely different scenario than just 40 enemies.  Or any other combination on a high level.

Nullifiers in high level missions change the the way people have to play.  That's why players complain about them so much.

 

I reply to your statement which, I assumed was deduction or reasoning (which is a process of logic) for why Nullifiers exist in the game. I did this by stating that I use Ignis in every single mission in the game outside of endless missions, therefore it does not change the way I play.

What changes is when the gun itself has lost throttle due to it's DPS, which has NOTHING to do with Nullifers, esp since even at lvl 1,250 the gun is equally effective against them.

You change your story to "high level" to try and steer around the issue as most know Ignis doesn't go into high level, Though you can push it to lvl 60, not 10-20, dunno what you're doing.... All I do is switch Ignis with Soma, P. Grakata, or any top tier high RoF weapon when I go past lvl 60, which I would do with or without Nullifiers. So yet again it does not change the way I play, it only limits other options I might have tried. Exactly the opposite of what you claim Nullifiers are for.

[deathstar2190]

lol it would be halirous if the grinear had nullifers ;P

[TheBrsrkr]

Ability and weapon spam needed to be reined in. Nullifiers do exactly that. 

[IceColdHawk]

6 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Ability and weapon spam needed to be reined in. Nullifiers do exactly that. 

Ability AND weapon spam? More like ability and weapon USAGE. Yeah, let's totally block that all. Why do we even play warframe? To shoot photos of the enemies? But better complain about bursas because we can't shoot them from the front, yet cc-able (wow, so op).

But to come back to the ability spam part, well, DE is already on it. Look at mag's future rework or saryn's rework. Nullifiers don't only block spam, they also block everything else and require cheap methods to get bypassed.