Why is Valkyr Hated?

[WARLOCKE]

4 minutes ago, Hemmo67 said:

sorry for 3 consecutive posts but it just popped in my head

lot of people call her cheesy and easy to play

what otherframe cannot cheese enemies either into permastun or REMOVE THEIR GUNS

those are veeeeeeeeeery few if any...

if u must nerf one cheesy frame (valkyr apperantly according to forum)

nerf all the cheesy abilities :D

Except three other frames have had their Invuln stripped, Valk should not be a special snow flake. Invuln is bad for warframe and its why it got removed from Rhino, Frost and Trinity. The fact it hasnt happened yet troubles me as it seems someone Dev side is a bit biased.

[Hemmo67]

Just now, WARLOCKE said:

Except three other frames have had their Invuln stripped, Valk should not be a special snow flake. Invuln is bad for warframe and its why it got removed from Rhino, Frost and Trinity. The fact it hasnt happened yet troubles me as it seems someone Dev side is a bit biased.

but if she isn't special in her own way it becomes just a rhino, atlast nezha missmashofsomthing

does it sound interesting anymore?

Be Honest!

[GreyEnneract]

Ripline is bad. Parkour 2.0 made it even less useful and the cast time is too long and single target only.

Warcry makes no sense. (Slows enemies but can't be recast, more viable to be built for duration, no point in the slow at all)

Paralysis is barely used due to Hysteria slide spam being much better, has low range, and a low stun duration.

Valkyr also has no reliable aggro draw, even though she's not the only one. 

These are the reasons I, and quite a few other people don't like Valkyr.

Hysteria is so powerful that it negates the use of the applied armor from Warcry, and potential extra damage from Paralysis.

The reason the whole Valkyr topic seems to always lead to Hysteria is because the problems the other abilities have will not be fixed, whether it be through QoL or directly buffed unless Hysteria is nerfed. This is going off of DE's track record, and if Valkyr's other abilities are ever looked at again to be given some love then DE will 100% nerf Hysteria in one way or another. 

So you either decide to lie to yourself and say Valkyr is perfect as is and needs absolutely no changes, or come to terms with how DE does things and expect Hysteria nerfs eventually to bring her other abilities up to par.

[Thebel]

34 minutes ago, Hemmo67 said:

but if she isn't special in her own way it becomes just a rhino, atlast nezha missmashofsomthing

does it sound interesting anymore?

Be Honest!

Because mechanically she was fine before when she had a 95% damage reduction instead of 100%, it was great because she had the rage/ built in lifestrike combo going for unlimited energy.

The only downsides then were, not being able to turn it off, so you'd be stuck in it for 30s or so and the melee didn't scale at all so you had to use ground finishers for end game.

[WARLOCKE]

1 hour ago, Hemmo67 said:

but if she isn't special in her own way it becomes just a rhino, atlast nezha missmashofsomthing

does it sound interesting anymore?

Be Honest!

She can be special without invuln. For no other reason than pure fairness, she needs invuln removed.

[-Temp0-]

33 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

Ripline is bad. Parkour 2.0 made it even less useful and the cast time is too long and single target only.

Beg to differ. It helps in situations like agility test or Razorback event. It was also useful on the security cameras there. Of course no need for it in majority of survivals and stuff, but still.

Quote

Warcry makes no sense. (Slows enemies but can't be recast, more viable to be built for duration, no point in the slow at all)

Without real slow like in peaceful provocation it's useless alone, without Hysteria. If it weren't for that, it'd be top tier.

Quote

Paralysis is barely used

You can actually kill mid level enemies with it or at least damage them. 

Quote

So you either decide to lie to yourself and say Valkyr is perfect

As perfect as something made by humans can be in this situation. The fact that one ability is just better than the rest doesn't really say much. Especially since that ability is the ultimate.

She can be special without invuln. For no other reason than pure fairness, she needs invuln removed.

Someone is jelly and doesn't even feel the need to hide it behind words "balance" and stuff, despite having Ash on the profile pic.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[GreyEnneract]

45 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Beg to differ. It helps in situations like agility test or Razorback event. It was also useful on the security cameras there. Of course no need for it in majority of survivals and stuff, but still.

Without real slow like in peaceful provocation it's useless alone, without Hysteria. If it weren't for that, it'd be top tier.

You can actually kill mid level enemies with it or at least damage them. 

As perfect as something made by humans can be in this situation. The fact that one ability is just better than the rest doesn't really say much. Especially since that ability is the ultimate.

Someone is jelly and doesn't even feel the need to hide it behind words "balance" and stuff, despite having Ash on the profile pic.

Like I said, if you think she has no flaws then you're just lying to yourself, and change will come whether you like it or not.

 

[-Temp0-]

13 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

Like I said, if you think she has no flaws then you're just lying to yourself, and change will come whether you like it or not.

If you think I said she has no flaws, you need to read with your eyes next time. Or read at all what other people are writing here.

Let's see how you'll like if some changes will come to frames you like or find useful. Make sure not to nag about it here then. That's not to mention changes =/= nerfs, but for some .... here it's the same. What they want is a nerf. They don't care to make her more playable, don't care about making her other abilities like warcry more useful they just salty because of a "noob god mode" that is more viable than their "decent, not-dirty and helpful to the team frame".

Edited April 9, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[Andaius]

I don't know with her Augments Warcray and paralysis work pretty damn good I think. I agree that ripline took a hit with parkour 2.0 but it's still pretty handy at taking down flyers, CC, and getting to places fast.  One of my favorite tactics is doing a bullet jump slam followed by a prolonged paralysis to sucking a whole mob of guys and put them on the ground for an easy finisher. Eternal War is extremely useful as well faster attacking always comes in handy with a melee frame.

[GreyEnneract]

6 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

If you think I said she has no flaws, you need to read with your eyes next time. Or read at all what other people are writing here.

Let's see how you'll like if some changes will come to frames you like or find useful. Make sure not to nag about it here then. That's not to mention changes =/= nerfs, but for some .... here it's the same. What they want is a nerf. They don't care to make her more playable, don't care about making her other abilities like warcry more useful they just salty because of a "noob god mode" that is more viable than their "decent, not-dirty and helpful to the team frame".

" As perfect as something made by humans can be in this situation. "

Perfect means having no flaws. Saying that she is as perfect as humanly possible is an insult to DE's other frame reworks, and you should be ashamed.

DE has already changed many frames I liked and found useful, and you know what, afterward they've all been more healthy for the game overall.

You need to understand that DE reworks the frames, not the people posting about them. With the past few reworks DE seems to know what they are doing.

[SYL3NZR]

On 3.4.2016 at 10:48 PM, -BE-VoltageKg said:

snip

becauses shes the embodiment of a bad player warframe, mash E and be invulnerable, which creates alot of bad players trying to circumvent """"difficulty"""" and then ruining higher level missions and sorties

also theres virtually no difference between a bad and a good valkyr, an MR21 with 4000 hours played will barely outperform a an mr5 thats played for a week

valkyr also invalidates many other warframes and playstyles which is probably the main concern for most players, you can deal with any enemy without any worries its like easy mode with stabilizer wheels for absolutely 0 effort put in where as other people have to actually use parkour, abilities and weaponry properly to achieve same results, while still being at risk to actually die

[-Temp0-]

37 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

" As perfect as something made by humans can be in this situation. "

Perfect means having no flaws. Saying that she is as perfect as humanly possible is an insult to DE's other frame reworks, and you should be ashamed.

DE has already changed many frames I liked and found useful, and you know what, afterward they've all been more healthy for the game overall.

You need to understand that DE reworks the frames, not the people posting about them. With the past few reworks DE seems to know what they are doing.

Yeah and by humans mean that "some" will find flaws where they don't exist. Like flaws with Hysteria while overlooking real flows with other her abilities that need a buff or rework if Hysteria will be changed. With hysteria as it is they're fine. Without it they're nothing. 

Like I said, changing is fine. But so far all the changes resulted either in watered down but basically the same abilities for the cost of greated energy (Saryn) or outright stupid nerfs without changing other abilities at all (Mesa). No need for those kind of reworks, but I guess Mag will suffer soon after all. I'm only glad I didn't find her that interesting to begin with. 

39 minutes ago, Andaius said:

I don't know with her Augments Warcray and paralysis work pretty damn good I think.

Don't see the use of Warcry alone. She moves quick enough as it is with Hysteria to even bother with warcry or eternal war, and without it with warcry only she'll be torn to shreds without that slow effect anywhere above mid level if it's not infested.

becauses shes the embodiment of a bad player warframe, mash E and be invulnerable, which creates alot of bad players trying to circumvent """"difficulty"""" and then ruining higher level missions and sorties

also theres virtually no difference between a bad and a good valkyr, an MR21 with 4000 hours played will barely outperform a an mr5 thats played for a week

valkyr also invalidates many other warframes and playstyles which is probably the main concern for most players, you can deal with any enemy without any worries its like easy mode with stabilizer wheels for absolutely 0 effort put in where as other people have to actually use parkour, abilities and weaponry properly to achieve same results, while still being at risk to actually die

Frame's bad cause she's hurting someone's ego. Very mature argument. 

 

Edited April 9, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[GreyEnneract]

6 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Yeah and by humans mean that "some" will find flaws where they don't exist. Like flaws with Hysteria while overlooking real flows with other her abilities that need a buff or rework if Hysteria will be changed. With hysteria as it is they're fine. Without it they're nothing. 

Like I said, changing is fine. But so far all the changes resulted either in watered down but basically the same abilities for the cost of greated energy (Saryn) or outright stupid nerfs without changing other abilities at all (Mesa). No need for those kind of reworks, but I guess Mag will suffer soon after all. I'm only glad I didn't find her that interesting to begin with. 

Don't see the use of Warcry alone. She moves quick enough as it is with Hysteria to even bother with warcry or eternal war, and without it with warcry only she'll be torn to shreds without that slow effect anywhere above mid level if it's not infested.

You make absolutely no sense, which isn't surprising after claiming that anything is as perfect as humanly possible.

None of Saryn's abilities were watered down, and Spore is arguably the best 1 ability in the game.

Peacemaker was changed because DE's philosophy is in favor of player interaction, and now it actually deals more damage than before.

Oberon was buffed overall, Frost was buffed overall, Excalibur was buffed overall. Even Ember and Rhino received great QoL changes.

You also clearly don't even watch devstreams, seeing as Mag and Volt's reworks have already been revealed showing they are obviously much better than before.

Saying "So far all the changes resulted either in watered down but basically the same abilities or outright stupid nerfs" is just ignorant by definition.

[-Temp0-]

All of them were watered down, because now from press 4 it simply became press 2 pres 111111,optionally press 3 ? Profit. Costs you some pizzas.

Don't care about the peacemaker, but the ability itself is just a wasted ability slot. If you're doing something like that, at least do it right - no point in cripling something "overpowered" so one one will use it and leaving other abilities (especially since they are barely any god) exactly as they were. And call it a "rework".

Mm right Oberon. If he was "buffed" I don't even want to know what he was at the beginning. Frost is a support so I guess no one cares about him, but there are tons of people crying "ner" whenever someone mentions Excal so there's that. Guess going by that logic they' castrate him soon enough, as they already added Los to RB. Ember and Rhino in the exact same place, seeing as a noobs' frames.

Mag isn't better in any way, she's going downhill. Watered down and more energy consuming but more than useless now shield polarize that works like annoying Volt's ult + useless magnetize that is affected by duration mods (which is a cancer for Mag) and useless as it was before pull. But now we can rip enemies in half using pull and magnetize, ya, synergy! Volt is basically the same as he was, added some minor CC that works god knows how as when they swowed this ability right after casting it Rebecca (I think it was Rebecca who played but that was kinda long ago) got a gift from bombard right in the Volt's face. Volt was mediocre, now is mediocre. Mostly just for playing around and for people who like to feel "special" and don't like using "noob ez frames" like frost when they need protection or other CC frames when they need CC. That is if they showed it all exactly as it is and won't change anything.

[Omnimorph]

Must admit, I've never seen anyone hating on Valkyr.  She seems to be a middling popular frame. 

It's probably more melee that people hate, but that's been changing recently since the new mods.

[MadHatHacker]

8 hours ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Didn't sound like it at all.

Her kit is perfect.

I disagree, but a nerf to Hysteria is not the answer. I apologize for being so harsh, but try not to make assumptions so hastily.

[Hemmo67]

okay i have done all in my power *looks at book of summoning chutulu*

in order to try and save valkyr how it is but i give up

u nerf her how much u want to

bye

[Thebel]

12 minutes ago, Hemmo67 said:

okay i have done all in my power *looks at book of summoning chutulu*

in order to try and save valkyr how it is but i give up

u nerf her how much u want to

bye

Oh no, doing something as reasonable as changing her back to 95% damage reduction from 100% is such a tragic nerf.

[SenorClipClop]

Valkyr offers a high amount of power output for a low amount of skill input. We also find this in the Amprex (don't have to aim that much) and the Tonkor (explosives that can't harm you). It's true that Valkyr's Hysteria may be a bit overpowered at lower levels, but with the frequency of Nullifiers and Energy Leeches in late-game, her simple press-4-to-win strategy doesn't work, and you have to develop new ways of fighting like OP has. (I personally only use Valkyr's 4 for the lifesteal when I'm low health, and sometimes to save her from dire situations.)

There are numerous ways to use Valkyr's 4. Cautious, casual, new, and lower-skill players may build Valkyr to remain in Hysteria forever and win like that. But it's not the best way to build her, as Val's a berserker designed around managing personal risk. Although it ignores much of the frame's overall potential, constant use of her ult allows new players to play through more content. It's no accident that Valkyr is easy to get pretty early in the game. Hysteria removes some of the difficulty present in the game, mostly for players who want to play the game but may not want an incredible challenge every time they play. While a "high power/low skill" feature like this is more relevant for PvP games and is not without its drawbacks (like skilled players complaining on forums, for instance), this mechanic is intentional and serves a specific purpose. It keeps more players playing and interested.

This video says it well:

Extra Credits - Balancing for Skill

[GreyEnneract]

2 hours ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Don't care about peacemaker. Frost is a support so I guess no one cares about him.

[trst]

Personally I dislike her because almost everyone I've known has gone for her as their first frame when starting out.

 

Now I get to constantly revive them when they're not playing her because they never properly learned how to stay alive. :^)

[GreyEnneract]

Not caring doesn't make facts disappear.

Also, here you go. http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/watered-down

[(XBOX)TheRoflLizard]

11 hours ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Not nearly. It's up to you if you're seeing it's "mainly" pvp game, other people have different ideas. Just like warframe is seen as a coop game, some are playing it solo and don't care about other aspects.

Uh oh. The game is about pvpv and people are using a legit ways to beat people in PVP. Now, where's the tragedy? Saying this, everything is OP if it was used against you and you lose. You've lost to a Havel user (asomething like Rhino or Atlas of warframe for those who don't understand)? Filthy Havel casuls! You've lost to a dex user who was wielding a washing pole/uchigatana/whatever? Filthy dex users! You've lost to a person who was hiding behind his great shield all the time and was poking you with his spear to death? Lost to a person who summoned white phanthoms? Lost to a person who was hiding behind the enemies or just hiding? You know what to do. Call them filthy x users/casuls. 

 

Actually, has to do with my overall feeling about PVP in games. Expect for Dex. The dex has to do more with stun lock removel and nerfing of str weapons because "Stun lock is cheap." However, It was like this. You trade weapon speed for a dunk. You hit a good hit and they are staggered and you never light up on It. Dex has many weapons which bleed/dps and make up for lack of locking by being able to keep range and speed. It is more my hate of some champions in LOL. It is the fact that their is a power bais. And in games, I dislike Dev power/skill bais.

 

I do not consider, Warframe to have a massive bais, the devs seems to hear peoples cries and react to them how they feel will solve game flaws. Each frame is good at what they are good at, and other then some need a buff or nerf by only a centimeter the game is fun.

Which is contrast to LOL as of late as mages keep getting boned and the game is tilted to manaless heavy burst attack damage characters. 

 

11 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

I have no problems with Valkyr.  I play Ivara and love her.  I kinda see Ivara and Valkyr as opposites (in a way) that can work well together.  I don't want to see a nerf as I see some of the complaints of Valkyr could also be easily applied to other warframes.  I've seen nerfs happen too many times in MMOs, and each time it was done to satisfy whinny little #$!#$%s.  Whether Valkry gets nerfed or not will not effect me directly as I don't have that warframe just yet.  I just don't want to see a reoccurring trend of nerfs.  Just my 2 cents worth.  :D

The most fun I had with other player was in a sortie Def where they where Valkyr and I was Volbin. Soley because I would set up traps and let Valkyr wail on them.And If one us got down the other would pick them right up. I'm not 100% sure of all the patch notes and who has been nerfed so can only assume they must of been massive If the Valkyr fix is considered rage worthy.

 

7 hours ago, Hemmo67 said:

i take back what i said whileback about console players because THIS man has the answer

she is no OP if u got no clue what to do

forgot ur melee to ur closet? oops u cannot kill anytin

forgot to build for efficency (tooks 4-5 slots) oops u pop hysteria and immediatly unpop it

didn't pay attention to that energy leech bedinh that bombard and 8 heavies

well gl surviving that buttrape

i could go on and on but this man already has summerized it perfectly

I am 50/50. I play Console frame because my laptop is not made for Warframe's level of Graphics.

But,as far as game design stand points I can pick up on things somewhat. And honestly, most frames need you to invest time into them to reach unkillable status. It is a matter like most games knowing what you can and can not do. And from personal knowledge, It is never wise to use her 4, as soon as 12 brands of Energy steal are in your face.

[(XBOX)TheRoflLizard]

2 hours ago, Thebel said:

Oh no, doing something as reasonable as changing her back to 95% damage reduction from 100% is such a tragic nerf.

I do not know if you know this but...

 

If she goes to 95%, she can get power off of rage. Which means people will stay in Hystra even longer. Which is why when they gave her a massive damage boost they set her to 100% so she would not become more or less unstopable and able to never actually have to leave Hystra. Unless, you want to rehale It all the way to the old verson where she struggled to hit people and was based on time and not her mana pool so you can yell about how she does nothing when Hystra is active because she will be forced to be stuck unable to use guns for who knows how long.

 

In the grand of things, This might be for the best. As long as It is as it is, she can swap in and out at will, but still have to maintain energy to keep It going. She still has limits,but she is not limited to her 4

[DatDarkOne]

9 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Valkyr offers a high amount of power output for a low amount of skill input. We also find this in the Amprex (don't have to aim that much) and the Tonkor (explosives that can't harm you). It's true that Valkyr's Hysteria may be a bit overpowered at lower levels, but with the frequency of Nullifiers and Energy Leeches in late-game, her simple press-4-to-win strategy doesn't work, and you have to develop new ways of fighting like OP has. (I personally only use Valkyr's 4 for the lifesteal when I'm low health, and sometimes to save her from dire situations.)

There are numerous ways to use Valkyr's 4. Cautious, casual, new, and lower-skill players may build Valkyr to remain in Hysteria forever and win like that. But it's not the best way to build her, as Val's a berserker designed around managing personal risk. Although it ignores much of the frame's overall potential, constant use of her ult allows new players to play through more content. It's no accident that Valkyr is easy to get pretty early in the game. Hysteria removes some of the difficulty present in the game, mostly for players who want to play the game but may not want an incredible challenge every time they play. While a "high power/low skill" feature like this is more relevant for PvP games and is not without its drawbacks (like skilled players complaining on forums, for instance), this mechanic is intentional and serves a specific purpose. It keeps more players playing and interested.

This video says it well:

Extra Credits - Balancing for Skill

I completely agree with this post and the included video.  I see how Valkyr can fit in that synopsis very well.  As you said, "Hysteria may be a bit overpowered at lower levels, but with the frequency of Nullifiers and Energy Leeches in late-game, her simple press-4-to-win strategy doesn't work, and you have to develop new ways of fighting like OP has."  

 

On the flip side of this, we have players doing things like this:  https://forums.warframe.com/topic/634265-ivaras-prowl-sleep-can-be-op-and-gamebraking/#comment-7099430

TC is saying to nerf without understanding how much a player has to do first to even be able to achieve the feats that he wants nerfed.  I can't help but to agree Nomen's statement.  

19 hours ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

 Saying this, everything is OP if it was used against you and you lose. You've lost to a Havel user (asomething like Rhino or Atlas of warframe for those who don't understand)? Filthy Havel casuls! You've lost to a dex user who was wielding a washing pole/uchigatana/whatever? Filthy dex users! You've lost to a person who was hiding behind his great shield all the time and was poking you with his spear to death? Lost to a person who summoned white phanthoms? Lost to a person who was hiding behind the enemies or just hiding? You know what to do. Call them filthy x users/casuls. 

Also maybe they just don't like that they can't do it also with there chosen favorite warframe, and want to nerf out of spite.  

 

Maybe I'm just too much of an Old Skool Gamer to understand how some of the younger "gamers" think.  I truly think they would ask to have the barrels nerfed in Donkey Kong.  

Edited April 10, 2016 by DatDarkOne
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