Baro Ki'Teer should appear on all Relays at the same time

[Caduzeus]

Dear DE,

Once again Baro Ki'Teer is in Pluto and once again lower rank players are denied his goods for no real reason. I can not for the life of me understand why he could not just as well spawn on all Relays at the same time. Meeting Baro is not a testament of skill or some triumphant achievement. He is just a merchant who sometimes is available for everyone and other times is arbitrarily not.

Darvo is in all Relays. Clem is everywhere too. What is the excuse of Baro?

This denial of his services is not based on his available goods. He is not bringing any more 'end-game' loot when he is in Orcus than when he is in Larunda. The only thing this spawn mechanic causes is grief and elitism. His availability is discriminating in a bad way, since it has nothing to do with specific player's skills. The Relay is not some high-end raid or difficult mission, but a simple store. It is nothing more than a shop that we just walk into, but for some reason you have to be 'this tall' to enter.

You are already required to amass a considerable amount of ducats and credits to buy his goods, so there exists a very real entry fee to his show. He also spawns only twice a month, so there is a second hurdle of having to be online on a specific weekend. Why add further restrictions by limiting his availability by mastery rank? I can not think of any real positive reasons for this that outweigh the negatives. This simply hurts the overall experience of junior players and that is not good for the game or for business.

It is a real shame that a considerable number of players are denied these items that are often available only once or twice a year, simply because they have not ground through enough weapons and frames before that moment. Being Mastery Rank 6 and knowing that you just do not have the means to grind 2 levels in this short period of time makes you sad, for those Baro-items will be out of your reach for months, maybe even a year. And if we are not under MR8 ourselves, we all have plenty of disappointed clan-friends.

Now, are Baro's items a necessity to be able to play well or enjoy the game? Absolutely not. Anyone can do just fine without and I am not considering his actual goods here. I am just talking about the principal of arbitrarily dividing players this way that is nothing but unfair and unrewarding. Sure you can buy many of the items from higher rank players with platinum, but I think that just makes it worse: it makes the whole ordeal feel more or less like a racket. I would not be amazed to hear of people who considered this to be such an awful way of pushing platinum that they simply quit the game in disgust of the business-practices they observed. Remember that it does not matter what was DE's original intention; it is all about how this all makes the player feel.

I hope that DE will at some point take a look at this issue and maybe consider adjusting Baro's availability.

 

Yours,
  Caduzeus

[LordOfScrugging]

Another one of these. Again, lets destroy the last shred of progression from this game. 

[Caduzeus]

44 minutes ago, LordOfScrugging said:

Another one of these. Again, lets destroy the last shred of progression from this game. 

Wow, I am not sure if you even read the whole post or if you commented the title alone. To be honest, I was expecting some elitism from the replies but it would have been more welcoming to see actual critique first instead of straw-manning the whole issue. 

Would you care to elaborate how Baro relates to 'progression', when his goods and his location are not correlated in any way? How is it progression that the same merchant can appear in an area accessible from day 1 last time and inaccessible to vast swaths of players the next time? How is that not arbitrary discrimination?

[Godzilla853]

Higher level items like Prisma skana are put on Pluto so you have to be mr 8 to get there.

 

[Caduzeus]

8 minutes ago, Godzilla853 said:

Higher level items like Prisma skana are put on Pluto so you have to be mr 8 to get there.

 

I do not think Prisma Skana is MR locked. Not according to wiki at least. And besides, what makes it 'higher level' than any other non-locked sword? It is just a normal Skana with a bit more crit.

Also, my intent for the discussion was not about what item should be available in specific places. Most if not all of Baro's gear is not locked by Mastery Rank, so where is the actual issue of him appearing on all Relays? If he ever had MR locked gear for sale, it could be unavailable for lower MR players, just like in the normal Market. Mods, boosters, Inaros and all the glittering trinkets can hardly be considered 'higher level' let alone MR locked, so why should those not be available for everyone with ducats to spare?

[LordOfScrugging]

1 hour ago, Caduzeus said:

Wow, I am not sure if you even read the whole post or if you commented the title alone. To be honest, I was expecting some elitism from the replies but it would have been more welcoming to see actual critique first instead of straw-manning the whole issue. 

Would you care to elaborate how Baro relates to 'progression', when his goods and his location are not correlated in any way? How is it progression that the same merchant can appear in an area accessible from day 1 last time and inaccessible to vast swaths of players the next time? How is that not arbitrary discrimination?

Yes, you're writing how it's such a shame that lower ranked players cannot get to baro when he's in pluto. Getting to Orcus is literally the last shred of progression seeing as you can be a low ranking player and get carried through sorties and trials. you can get damn near the best gear without climbing higher ranks. There is nothing to reward time spent playing since every proceeding update caters to newer players.

It takes little time to power grind to MR8 so i don't see why players complain. Baro wasn't even meant for everyone, he was meant for old players with mountains of prime parts to get rid of them in exchange for other stuff, but look how it turns out. If you're a high ranking player, with nearly everything in the game, all you can do "progression wise" is wait for the next new weapon/frame/event/quest. 

[(PSN)shadowraith_666]

Yes Baro should spawn on all the relays at once, as you already mentioned Darvo and clem are on all relays as is Teshin and Semaris and of course all the syndicate NPC's as well, there's no reason for Baro not to spawn on all relays at the same time other than an arbitrary MR gate for stuff that does not have an MR lock.

[Caduzeus]

1 hour ago, LordOfScrugging said:

Yes, you're writing how it's such a shame that lower ranked players cannot get to baro when he's in pluto.

No, I am writing about my concerns of his general availability. My opinion is that since Baro can be in any Relay, he should be in them every two weeks. My argumentation for this can be found on my first post.

 

1 hour ago, LordOfScrugging said:

Getting to Orcus is literally the last shred of progression seeing as you can be a low ranking player and get carried through sorties and trials. you can get damn near the best gear without climbing higher ranks. There is nothing to reward time spent playing since every proceeding update caters to newer players.

1. There is hardly any MMO game out there in which you could not be carried to the top. Warframe is no exception. Of course you can be carried because the game's mechanics allow that. If you want to raise that issue, I am sure there are plenty of other threads to cater to that need.

2. How is getting to Orcus any kind of progress, if you can be carried there in the first place? Your argument makes no sense. Also: it is far from the last thing even on paper, since there are plenty of MR12 guns available out there.

3. Trust me, your fun will not diminish if other kids play with same kinds of toys you have. You may have the need to feel special because of all the time you put into the game, but it does not take any of that away if other people can have fun too with the same toys, in their own way. They may not all play cool or be cool like you, but there is no real reason to deny them their fun, if it does not take anything from you. That is just selfish and you know that.

 

1 hour ago, LordOfScrugging said:

It takes little time to power grind to MR8 so i don't see why players complain.

It would take 'you' little time to power grind to MR8, since you are an experienced player and you most likely have friends who could help you. Not every player wants to or even can power grind to the max. Not every player has a big clan behind them, showering a new player with resources, gear and guns. I find it very inconsiderate to think that your standards as a veteran should apply to everyone.

 

1 hour ago, LordOfScrugging said:

Baro wasn't even meant for everyone, he was meant for old players with mountains of prime parts to get rid of them in exchange for other stuff, but look how it turns out. If you're a high ranking player, with nearly everything in the game, all you can do "progression wise" is wait for the next new weapon/frame/event/quest. 

Baro was not meant for everyone? If that is your attitude, then I am not sure if there is enough sugar in this game for your high horse. Are you saying that new players should not be able to convert their prime parts for ducats and enjoy Baro's goods? Do you think that only the 'elite' of Warframe are privileged enough to enjoy certain parts of the game?

If you have more or less 'completed' the game then of course there is very little for you to do but wait for new content. What did you expect, endless new things every day? We are living in a real world here and development resources are very limited. DE will do what they can to keep as many old players as possible and try to get as many new as they can. Most players just are not you, so DE will go where most of the money is. They have shareholders too and all those developers need to eat.

From the business perspective I can assure you, that Baro is most definitely meant for every potentially paying player, not just for your select few. He has become a recurring character and almost all players await his arrival. Only problem is that his spawn mechanics are archaic and I am still yet to witness a single argument against my proposal of having him spawn on all Relays, that is not simply "Baro is not for scrubs!" or "Arbitrary discrimination is fine, as long as I benefit" or "But... I wanna be special!"

Besides elitism, what else is there to defend the system as it is and deny junior players part of the fun?

[BlackCoMerc]

4 hours ago, LordOfScrugging said:

Another one of these. Again, lets destroy the last shred of progression from this game. 

Yes, because buying up and grinding rank on a lot of items in order to reach MR8 quick is "Progression." Please: I could dump some cash into Plat, go to Draco and achieve MR in a weekend if I tried hard enough. 

That's not progression. Really its not.

I agree with the OP. Baro should be available everywhere at once. Or should only ever come to Mercury so he is available to everyone. Putting him on Pluto like this smacks of driving people to Plat trading and that will cost you players in the long run, as your game garners a "Pay to Win" sort of reputation.

[LordOfScrugging]

3 hours ago, Caduzeus said:

1. There is hardly any MMO game out there in which you could not be carried to the top. Warframe is no exception. Of course you can be carried because the game's mechanics allow that. If you want to raise that issue, I am sure there are plenty of other threads to cater to that need.

I want you to show me an MMO where you can be carried through what are supposed to be "end game content", and i use endgame loosely, Without being a hinderance.

3 hours ago, Caduzeus said:

2. How is getting to Orcus any kind of progress, if you can be carried there in the first place? Your argument makes no sense. Also: it is far from the last thing even on paper, since there are plenty of MR12 guns available out there.

You are supposed to make your way through the star chart, progressing through each mission to the boss to unlock the next planet. Pluto being one of the later ones. Orcus is the only relay with any sort of restriction that's a somewhat decent rank. Sorties are MR 4, I don't even think trials HAVE a restriction, and Void is just finding a group to camp in higher tier missions.  "there are plenty of MR12 guns available" saying this is progression is like saying you've progressed in an MMO by having legendary gear, but no raids and end game content that's worthy of using this gear.

3 hours ago, Caduzeus said:

3. Trust me, your fun will not diminish if other kids play with same kinds of toys you have. You may have the need to feel special because of all the time you put into the game, but it does not take any of that away if other people can have fun too with the same toys, in their own way. They may not all play cool or be cool like you, but there is no real reason to deny them their fun, if it does not take anything from you. That is just selfish and you know that.

 

It's nothing about being "special" what sense does it make where a player that's only started a week ago has access to the strongest gear available, killing any sort of fun to be had?

 

3 hours ago, Caduzeus said:

Baro was not meant for everyone? If that is your attitude, then I am not sure if there is enough sugar in this game for your high horse. Are you saying that new players should not be able to convert their prime parts for ducats and enjoy Baro's goods? Do you think that only the 'elite' of Warframe are privileged enough to enjoy certain parts of the game?

If you have more or less 'completed' the game then of course there is very little for you to do but wait for new content. What did you expect, endless new things every day? We are living in a real world here and development resources are very limited. DE will do what they can to keep as many old players as possible and try to get as many new as they can. Most players just are not you, so DE will go where most of the money is. They have shareholders too and all those developers need to eat.

From the business perspective I can assure you, that Baro is most definitely meant for every potentially paying player, not just for your select few. He has become a recurring character and almost all players await his arrival. Only problem is that his spawn mechanics are archaic and I am still yet to witness a single argument against my proposal of having him spawn on all Relays, that is not simply "Baro is not for scrubs!" or "Arbitrary discrimination is fine, as long as I benefit" or "But... I wanna be special!"

Besides elitism, what else is there to defend the system as it is and deny junior players part of the fun?

No, Baro wasn't MEANT for everyone. But he ended up being accessible to everyone regardless. Don't know where you're getting "eliteism" from stating that a feature wasn't meant for a group of players. And no, New players should be taking advantage of prime parts being accessible and trading for plat to get more slots and other things instead of using them for ducats.

I wanna hear what was the last thing meant solely for Vets/more longer standing players? Nothing. The only thing i can see is the new difficulty slider or whatever for starchart 3.0. but even then. Most everything DE does is tailored with new players in mind so there isn't much for an older player to do to progress in the game. That must be a good thing to tell long standing players "hey just wait for stuff, thanks!"

"From the business perspective I can assure you, that Baro is most definitely meant for every potentially paying player, not just for your select few."

select few, you mean frequent supporters of the game? Cause that's the part i'm in. the group that has pumped money into warframe and DE. But sure the majority of newer players is definitely where the money is, right?

[groznez]

I agree with OP. I don't see why Baro couldn't spawn to every relay when he appears. Even DEs official twitter account (Baro is here) announces when he arrives (without mentioning where he is). So I can't think how frustrating it must be for newer players when they see that he has arrived, only to find out shortly they can't buy stuff from him because he has spawned in Orcus. Also I personally highly doubt that every new player can or even wants to go to Draco right off the bat to power level gear. This is especially true as Caduzeus stated if said player doesn't have friends in-game or supportive large clan. I see this as similar to the issue with buying revives with plat. Which only new players did because they didn't know any better. DE changed that and I think they should change this. I think this would encourage newer players while not hurting veteran players in the slightest.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 minute ago, groznez said:

I agree with OP. I don't see why Baro couldn't spawn to every relay when he appears. Even DEs official twitter account (Baro is here) announces when he arrives (without mentioning where he is). So I can't think how frustrating it must be for newer players when they see that he has arrived, only to find out shortly they can't buy stuff from him because he has spawned in Orcus. Also I personally highly doubt that every new player can or even wants to go to Draco right off the bat to power level gear. This is especially true as Caduzeus stated if said player doesn't have friends in-game or supportive large clan. I see this as similar to the issue with buying revives with plat. Which only new players did because they didn't know any better. DE changed that and I think they should change this. I think this would encourage newer players while not hurting veteran players in the slightest.

Well said. I agree completely. There simply is no good reason why Baro is NOT on every relay or the first relay available, for ease of access.

[groznez]

Also thought about what LordOfScrugging said new players being carried through difficult missions. New Players can go fight in most difficult battles like Sorties/Trials/high level Void with only mastery rank 4. Yet they sometimes cannot enter a simple shop to buy items that would be very useful in fighting said difficult battles. To me that makes literally no sense. It seems very much like arbitrary line that has no point being here.

[Phatose]

It has a very simple point - to make players grind through MR and the starmap.  If you don't grind, you lose access to thing you might want.

This gives you a reason to keep at it - and it the fundamental character of all of Warframe. 

If anything, the problem is the lack of restrictions on access to the void and other content that prevents players from realizing what the game is actually about.

[Plushy]

Or people could just get to MR8 and work their way through the starchart. You would think getting a chance to face more bosses and opening yourself up to more alerts would be enough of an incentive to unlock nodes. 

I would rather him nor show up everywhere because he completely ruins FashionFrame whenever he shows up at Larunda. 

Maybe he should always show up at Pluto... 

Edited April 23, 2016 by Plushy

[(XBOX)Skode]

9 minutes ago, Phatose said:

It has a very simple point - to make players grind through MR and the starmap.  If you don't grind, you lose access to thing you might want.

This gives you a reason to keep at it - and it the fundamental character of all of Warframe. 

If anything, the problem is the lack of restrictions on access to the void and other content that prevents players from realizing what the game is actually about.

Yet you can just trade for them... Newer players could be exploited as a result of this. High MR ain't running about with no Prisma Skana but newer players wanting to upgrade that Skana they ARE using? I blame the community personally. It would be a MUCH smoother progression has we still got all the relays available.

[Troll_Logic]

9 hours ago, Caduzeus said:

Dear DE,

Once again Baro Ki'Teer is in Pluto and once again lower rank players are denied his goods for no real reason.

While I can understand your point, if a player has enough ducats to buy something from Baro then that player has had enough time to complete the star chart.

[Phatose]

30 minutes ago, (XB1)Skode said:

Yet you can just trade for them... Newer players could be exploited as a result of this. High MR ain't running about with no Prisma Skana but newer players wanting to upgrade that Skana they ARE using? I blame the community personally. It would be a MUCH smoother progression has we still got all the relays available.

An odd picture you paint.  You can't see Baro's inventory without talking to him directly - or using outside resources.  If a player is willing to use outside resources to find out what Baro is selling - but not willing to use those same resources to prevent themselves from being exploited - I doubt we can help them.

[Mak_Gohae]

If you have enough ducats to purchase stuff from him you should have enough stuff to make it to Pluto.

[Freekiku]

You guys need to clearly understand the diferent beetween "walls" and "endgame" cause the walls are there to slowy guide you to end game. Its a big huge friking grind so why are you complaining. I think Baro should be available to everyone since everyone can make void missions and succeed there since the beginning of the game.

[CrazyValkyr]

@LordOfScrugging - I understand your need for progress, I really do. The thing is; I believe there can be a better middle-ground of that, than denying junior players access to potentially useful/nice gear, which can help them to go through some of the content. Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem like someone who's been around for a while, and feels that you're kind of stagnating, and the game doesn't do much for you, as a 'vet', making you feel a bit jaded.

Try to look at it from another angle - Players, who have been around for a long while are those, who people like me look at, and think of them as the sort-of pillars of the community and reflect what the community itself is like. Some of 'vet' players don't realize that they are (knowingly or not) the ones shaping what the community often becomes. Be friendly & welcoming of the new guy, and you're likely to help foster a friendly, good community environment with the coming 'generations' of the new players coming to 'your' game, too, without even realizing it. That, at least to me, is much bigger reward/progress, than the feel of 'But I can do this, they can't.' :)

[akira_him]

by the time you get to Pluto, you should be already MR8(at least in my time) unless you just taxi to Draco all day

progression on the starchart is also important, if anything, I would say increase the mastery points gained by clearing nodes

[TrickshotMcGee]

Baro isn't something that should be exclusive. "New players should spend plat from prime parts for slots etc" is a BS excuse for "New players shouldn't access him because they're not good enough". The thing is- accessing him can help help them get good enough. If a newbie spends three days farming T1 missions, they're not necessarily ready for higher level content. They may not have mods good enough to compete or damage enemies enough to actually DO anything, let alone progress to Pluto. As a result, they'd have an excess of parts turned into ducats because the trade market is scary as all hell.

I'll be honest, I've got 340-something hours in Warframe, sitting at a comfortable MR 9, and my highest planet is Eris because I'm simply too lazy to be bothered. I've completed Sorties and spend 3 hours in T3 survivals pretty regularly for plat, kicks, and credits. I enjoy taking my time and just playing for the fun of the game. However, I'm by no means a newbie. I'm a casual player, and I cannot access items that should be available to someone of my level of skill and playtime. I get that it's 100% my fault I've not got Pluto open yet, but as a casual player, I don't feel the burning need to open up all the planets, nor should I need to JUST for mods and items that aren't even considered necessary for end-game, or even high level play. Warframe isn't a game for only hardcore players and doesn't require everyone to speed through as much as possible and grind as much MR as they can quickly. Casuals have a place, and denying access based on that fact alone is kind of crappy. If this had come up for me when I only had 100 hours into the game, my opinion would be the same. It will remain the same when I've completed all in-game content and I'm bored waiting for new content. 

The fact of the matter is that locking content behind feigned progression is just bad and kind of toxic. If someone thinks they're better and deserve more because they can clear planets faster, then they're wrong in every sense of the word. I'm just as "entitled" to Baro's mods as the next person, even if they think they're better or stronger than me. Simple as that.

[Rekkou]

If you want X you need to go to Y places in game, is a common and acceptable standard in plenty of games. Plenty of full paid single player game lock strongest weapons until last room where you fight the final boss. Plenty of multiplayer games locks weapon that isn't even stronger than your basic weapon until you progress. I never get why people suddenly expect everything should be different in warframe. So pardon me if i never get the "newbie is punished for not being able to get everything right away" arguments.

[akira_him]

7 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

If you want X you need to go to Y places in game, is a common and acceptable standard in plenty of games. Plenty of full paid single player game lock strongest weapons until last room where you fight the final boss. Plenty of multiplayer games locks weapon that isn't even stronger than your basic weapon until you progress. I never get why people suddenly expect everything should be different in warframe. So pardon me if i never get the "newbie is punished for not being able to get everything right away" arguments.

I think they misunderstood the whole thing

Baro is rewarding vets instead of punishing newbies